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Old 11th July 2018, 12:05 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rubbish. It's not like that at all. Doctors and Catholics have not had to endure hatred, ridicule, assault and murder just for being who they are. They have not had to fight tooth and nail have their place in society even recognised as existing.

If you want a vaguely appropriate analogy (though it still isn't, really), how about casting Australian actors when the character is Australian, rather than getting an American actor to put on a frankly awful attempt at an Australian accent?

A trans actor has experience with being trans. Sure, you can coach a cis actor to act like a gender that they're not, but why would you need to? Like an American putting on an Australian accent, they're rarely convincing to someone who knows what they're looking at. Only those ignorant of what an Australian accent actually sounds like are fooled. And only those ignorant of a trans person's mannerisms and experiences will be fooled. I'm sure there are non-Australian actors who can put on a convincing Australian accent (though I've not heard any) and I'm sure there are cis actors who can convincingly act trans. But why should they do that, when there are Australian and trans actors ready to take the parts?

And what about all the hard-working trans actors who are very compatible for the role who don't get it because it's been given to a cis actor? It's like they're invisible - and that's the problem. Trans people have been pushed aside, marginalised, and the rest of society prefers to pretend they don't exist. Cast trans actors in trans parts, and maybe we can start to change that.

I accept your apology.
I thought we were supposed to pretend cis and trans folk were the same?

And doesn't the reverse also hold? Shouldn't we then not have trans folk play cis folk, since it will "hardly convince anyone" given their distinct mannerisms?
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:11 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't see why it should be controversial. A trans man should be cast to play the part of a trans man.
Are you happy that that logic means that a trans man can only play the part of a trans man? Do you want to limit their acting career so much?
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Regardless, that's not the point. The point is that there are trans actors available to play trans parts, and they are being pushed aside in favour of cis actors. Now, I'm sure that Ms Johansson is going to be excellent in this role. She usually is. But did they even consider giving the role to a trans actor? Or did they just want the big-name draw?
Itís called show business for a reason.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:20 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Name some
Ryan Cassata. Ian Harvie. Elliot Fletcher.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Some that would make it not make a humongous loss rather than a slightly embarrassing loss that it probably will with her
Ah, now there's the rub, isn't it? Johansson is a draw card - a famous person who by being famous will lend fame to the film. This is clearly what the casting director's priority was. And to be fair, her fame will help to bring the story of a trans man to a mass media market. But I contend that it would be equally as successful if they cast a trans man in the role of a trans man simply because they had the bravery to do so where almost no-one had done it before. It could have broken new ground.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:20 AM   #44
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I hereby declare myself a woman and I want to be portrayed by Scarlett Johansson.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:22 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Are you happy that that logic means that a trans man can only play the part of a trans man? Do you want to limit their acting career so much?
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that trans men should be given the opportunity to play the part of trans men. Which is something they don't currently get. Why should they be denied that opportunity?
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:23 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I hereby declare myself a woman and I want to be portrayed by Scarlett Johansson.
If you want to identify as a woman, you should start being one.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I thought we were supposed to pretend cis and trans folk were the same?
If that's the message you have taken from the trans visibility campaign, then you need to take another look at it.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you want to identify as a woman, you should start being one.
Are you going to mansplain my gender to me?
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:35 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Are you going to mansplain my gender to me?
Are you female? Identifying as a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth is a little more complicated than merely declaring it on an internet forum.

But yeah, I can sympathise with wanting to be played by Scarlett Johansson. Personally I'd go for Drew Barrymore - she's closer to my age - but there you go.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The profits from Cruise's movies do not go direct to the Church of Scientology. They take some of his personal money, but surely it's his prerogative to give his money where he wishes?
Yes, it is his prerogative to give his money where he wishes.

It is also my prerogative to not give my money to him and his ****** cult.

I illegally download Tom Cruise movies out of spite. And I don't even watch them.
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Old 11th July 2018, 12:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The profits from Cruise's movies do not go direct to the Church of Scientology. They take some of his personal money, but surely it's his prerogative to give his money where he wishes?
And surely it's Lambchops prerogative to give their money where they wish?
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that trans men should be given the opportunity to play the part of trans men. Which is something they don't currently get. Why should they be denied that opportunity?
You need to get out more (or perhaps stay in more).

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Old 11th July 2018, 01:18 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And surely it's Lambchops prerogative to give their money where they wish?
I would certainly hope so.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
...snip...

A trans actor has experience with being trans. ...snip...
But theirs will be a personal experience not a universal experience and their experiences may not be that of the character they are meant to be portraying.

For example they may have had - in real life -a very happy life, been accepted as they wanted to be by loving family and friends but the role they are meant to be playing is of an abused and tormented soul who committed suicide at the age of 30.

Actors are meant to act, of course many state they draw on personal experiences to help them but many also say they research characters as well.


Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
...snip...
And what about all the hard-working trans actors who are very compatible for the role who don't get it because it's been given to a cis actor? It's like they're invisible - and that's the problem. Trans people have been pushed aside, marginalised, and the rest of society prefers to pretend they don't exist. Cast trans actors in trans parts, and maybe we can start to change that.

...snip...
It is obviously hard for a trans person to make a break as an actor, but that is true for all actors, for all the a-listers there is a pyramid of b,c and d list actors under them.

I don't doubt it still is very hard for a trans person to break into the a-list, and yes there will be additional prejudice to overcome because they are a trans person.

(We only have to see how difficult it still is for even realitively established non-hetrosexual actors once their non-hetrosexuality becomes public knowledge.)

There is no quick answer or remedy to this issue but I do know reserving roles based on whether someone is trans is not the way to do it if you want to help society stop seeing it as an issue.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that trans men should be given the opportunity to play the part of trans men. Which is something they don't currently get. Why should they be denied that opportunity?
Quite serious question how many major movies (i.e. ones with strong distribution and marketing deals) have such roles?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:02 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Shouldn't we then not have trans folk play cis folk, since it will "hardly convince anyone" given their distinct mannerisms?
...you've identified the problem.

Why don't trans folk play cis folk?

Because they don't get cast to play cis folk. There are practically no roles around for trans folk.

So when a multi-million dollar movie gets announced about the life of Jean Marie Gill and its one of the very rare opportunities for trans folk to get a leading role its *********** **** that they don't even get the chance to audition. Its not that its "insensitive." Its that its a *********** **** thing to do. If trans folk don't get cast as cis folk and if trans folk can't even get cast as trans folk then what opportunities are there out there for trans-folk-actors?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:03 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It would be super silly for a female Thor by your logic. Strangely this is a very popular character.

If an actor can play a demon, alien, soldier, doctor, god, animal, dead body, house plant, tick, rock, machine, or holocaust survivor I think we have plenty of precedent for actors playing outside of who they are.

Not to mention voice axons long history of picking the best person for the role regardless of sex.

So no I'm not seeing this obvious distinction you think exists.
Exactly and all you need is a little dark makeup and you can have a normal person play a black or mexican.

Really all actors should be white men and they should play all the roles. Shakespeare had it right.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Should heterosexual male roles go to heterosexual males?
Trans actors are never cast as cis characters. Yet cis actors are cast as trans characters all the time. Why bother casting male actors when the parts can be played by women acting as men for less?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:09 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The only thing even slightly controversial is the outrage

Maybe the producers just want to actually make some money
Just like why you don't hire blacks for sales jobs. This works for all kinds of reasons.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:12 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is the problem when people claiming special attention because of their past victimhood is worse than eg "insert group"

In the vast length of history most groups of people have been victimised.
But at least it allows us to ignore current victims which was the whole point anyway.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:13 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I thought we were supposed to pretend cis and trans folk were the same?

And doesn't the reverse also hold? Shouldn't we then not have trans folk play cis folk, since it will "hardly convince anyone" given their distinct mannerisms?
Then why didn't the cast a man to play the man?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:14 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Are you happy that that logic means that a trans man can only play the part of a trans man? Do you want to limit their acting career so much?
It is already limited, it isn't like trans actors are getting cis roles now.
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:15 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ryan Cassata. Ian Harvie. Elliot Fletcher.

Ah, now there's the rub, isn't it? Johansson is a draw card - a famous person who by being famous will lend fame to the film. This is clearly what the casting director's priority was. And to be fair, her fame will help to bring the story of a trans man to a mass media market. But I contend that it would be equally as successful if they cast a trans man in the role of a trans man simply because they had the bravery to do so where almost no-one had done it before. It could have broken new ground.
But why waste a potentially break out role on a newcomer?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:17 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
You need to get out more (or perhaps stay in more).

Laverne Cox
When has she been cast as a cis woman character?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:51 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...you've identified the problem.

Why don't trans folk play cis folk?

Because they don't get cast to play cis folk. There are practically no roles around for trans folk.

So when a multi-million dollar movie gets announced about the life of Jean Marie Gill and its one of the very rare opportunities for trans folk to get a leading role its *********** **** that they don't even get the chance to audition. Its not that its "insensitive." Its that its a *********** **** thing to do. If trans folk don't get cast as cis folk and if trans folk can't even get cast as trans folk then what opportunities are there out there for trans-folk-actors?
Gill was a woman who dressed somewhat masculine for the time, she was also a lesbian, from what I recollect of her story (which is from some decades ago so my memory may be wrong) she did not self-identify as a man?
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Old 11th July 2018, 03:54 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Gill was a woman who dressed somewhat masculine for the time, she was also a lesbian, from what I recollect of her story (which is from some decades ago so my memory may be wrong) she did not self-identify as a man?
...I'm not sure what this has to do with my point. But as you are relying on your recollection (which is from some decades ago and may be wrong) please, by all means, feel free to look it up for yourself and share with us what you find.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...I'm not sure what this has to do with my point. But as you are relying on your recollection (which is from some decades ago and may be wrong) please, by all means, feel free to look it up for yourself and share with us what you find.
Do you even know the person identified as trans?
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:21 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Of course. But your original argument was based on your misconception that being trans required medical or surgical intervention. Now that you have agreed that that is not the case, I assume you will wish to make a different argument, which I now invite you to do.
My argument wasn't based on that misconception. That was the misunderstanding that I apologized for.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:39 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Do you even know the person identified as trans?
...hello!

Darat asked the same question!

Please, by all means find out the answer and share it here with the rest of us. Cheers!
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:42 AM   #70
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For mine, reality of visuals is everything, and personally I am not prepared to put that aside for the sake of "artistic licence".

I could no more accept Denzil Washington in the role of John F Kennedy than I could accept Steve Buscemi as Martin Luther King Jr. I put this sort of thing in the same class as trying to pass off a '68 Mustang as a 67 Corvette in a car movie, or a North American T6 Harvard as a Mitsubishi A6M5 "Zero" in a move about Pearl Harbour.

As for Scarlett Johansson portraying Tex Gill (a real life historical character) the only things I consider are;

a. Does she look the part
b. Can she act the part

Nothing else matters to me. Whether or not the actor chosen for the part is transgender or not makes about as much difference to me as whether they are Democrat or Republican (note: Jodie Foster is a lesbian, yet she played the role of Ellie Arroway in "Contact" who had a love/sexual relationship with Palmer Joss (Matthew McConaughey). Did it make any difference? Of course not.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:46 AM   #71
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My biggest complaint so far with this casting is that whilst I don't need actors to be a look-a-like with the real life person they are portraying I do expect some physical resemblance, the amount of make-up and prosthetics required to turn this actress into someone who has a physical resemblance to the actual person will require more work then GITS did!

ETA: Added photo
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gill1.jpg (67.1 KB, 7 views)
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:52 AM   #72
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Now that we're apparently suddenly redefining the abbreviation "trans" to stand for "transvestite" instead of "transsexual" even though it never did before, that would make this not a real issue at all. It could have been, if we were talking about someone with bodily modifications, but if it's just wardrobe... an actor's on-stage wardrobe is never his/her own clothes anyway, so it can't possibly make any sense to say casting should be based on actors' "street clothes" which are only worn off-stage.

What's actually more relevant about this movie and who's starring in it is that she's a lean person playing an overweight one. At least in that case it's actually a difference between the people themselves, not just what they're wearing.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:54 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My biggest complaint so far with this casting is that whilst I don't need actors to be a look-a-like with the real life person they are portraying I do expect some physical resemblance, the amount of make-up and prosthetics required to turn this actress into someone who has a physical resemblance to the actual person will require more work then GITS did!

ETA: Added photo
Which one is she supposed to be playing? If it is the one on the right, then no problem. If it is the one on the left, then that is stretching artistic license to breaking point.
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Old 11th July 2018, 04:59 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are you female? Identifying as a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth is a little more complicated than merely declaring it on an internet forum.
I wonder just how much more complicated it is.

After all, my understanding here is that the person being played here has not done anything more complicated than declaring their gender.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:13 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rubbish. It's not like that at all. Doctors and Catholics have not had to endure hatred, ridicule, assault and murder just for being who they are. They have not had to fight tooth and nail have their place in society even recognised as existing.
So what? The purpose of casting is not to right historical wrongs.

Quote:
If you want a vaguely appropriate analogy (though it still isn't, really), how about casting Australian actors when the character is Australian, rather than getting an American actor to put on a frankly awful attempt at an Australian accent?
I don't remember people getting their panties in a bunch about Scarlet Johansen being cast as a Russian.

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A trans actor has experience with being trans. Sure, you can coach a cis actor to act like a gender that they're not, but why would you need to?
And doctors have experience with being doctors. Sure, you can coach a non-doctor to act like a doctor that they're not, but why would you need to?

Because it's acting.

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Like an American putting on an Australian accent, they're rarely convincing to someone who knows what they're looking at. Only those ignorant of what an Australian accent actually sounds like are fooled. And only those ignorant of a trans person's mannerisms and experiences will be fooled. I'm sure there are non-Australian actors who can put on a convincing Australian accent (though I've not heard any) and I'm sure there are cis actors who can convincingly act trans. But why should they do that, when there are Australian and trans actors ready to take the parts?
In this specific case, because the movie wouldn't be made without SJ.

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And what about all the hard-working trans actors who are very compatible for the role who don't get it because it's been given to a cis actor? It's like they're invisible - and that's the problem.
Lots of aspiring actors are invisible. Lots of qualified actors lose roles to more famous actors that aren't actually as good for the role. Life isn't fair. Suck it up, buttercup.

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Trans people have been pushed aside, marginalised, and the rest of society prefers to pretend they don't exist. Cast trans actors in trans parts, and maybe we can start to change that.
Not gonna happen if the movie in question doesn't even get made. Which would be the case here.

I recently saw a movie about Temple Grandin. They cast Claire Danes as Temple. Claire Danes isn't autistic. Does she do a perfect imitation of an autistic person? No, she doesn't. Does that ultimately matter? No, it doesn't. Should they have gotten an autistic actor to play the role? No, they shouldn't. Claire has name recognition. That makes getting funding for the movie easier. That makes getting an audience for the movie easier. That makes it easier for people to hear Temple's story. If the purpose is exposure and acceptance, that's more important than one actor from that demographic getting the role.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:16 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are you female? Identifying as a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth is a little more complicated than merely declaring it on an internet forum.
Sure. You've got to declare it in real life too.

But it apparently isn't more complicated than that. There's no test you need to pass to become trans.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:17 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My biggest complaint so far with this casting is that whilst I don't need actors to be a look-a-like with the real life person they are portraying I do expect some physical resemblance, the amount of make-up and prosthetics required to turn this actress into someone who has a physical resemblance to the actual person will require more work then GITS did!

ETA: Added photo

You can do a lot with makeup etc.
Off the screen, Charlize Theron doesn't look much like Aileen Wuornos.

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ETA: It would probably have been much more difficult to make Aileen Wuornos give a convincing performance as Charlize Theron, but she wasn't a professional actress.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:19 AM   #78
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So if I am getting these arguments right, because there are in fact many Native American actors available, the parts should never go to "white folk" and when they do I should be up in arms about it? Jonny Depp playing Tonto or more famously, the Indian crying over the litter in those old commercials, who was Italian and in no way native?? It's entertainment folks and of course the people who want to make bank on a movie are going to want a name like Scarlett Johansson to bring in the bucks. Not to mention that if you want a story told, and information to get out there and truly reach people, sometimes you have to throw in a name that gets attention. For example, Boys Don't Cry. never heard the story of Teena until that movie. Do you think it would have done as well if it hadn't starred Hillary Swank? I know nothing about this story so I don't know if it's one that needs to be told. But the fact is, movies are a business and popular, well established actors get the attention.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:29 AM   #79
banquetbear
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
So if I am getting these arguments right, because there are in fact many Native American actors available, the parts should never go to "white folk" and when they do I should be up in arms about it?
...nope. You are not getting the arguments right.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:33 AM   #80
dann
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I think that Andy Warhol, when asked about the point of making the movie Women in Revolt (maybe not safe for work), said: To give some drag queens/transvestites/female impersonators (I don't remember the word he used) a job.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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