ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2018 elections

Reply
Old 31st August 2018, 01:28 PM   #241
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The word ISN'T automatically racist. If Gillum was White or Asian or Native American, no one would have thought twice about it. But Gillum is an African American. And there is a long dark history of of the comparison of simians to Blacks. DeSantis is either racially insensitive and oblivious, which just makes him stupid. Or he's blatantly signalling the redneck bigots.

Gillum can't and isn't focusing on this probable racism. Others might, but he and his campaign isn't.
The "racially insensitive=oblivious=stupid" part of your argument is specifically what I am referring to.
There is a substantial set of white voters who would be (and in many cases already are) sympathetic to what are considered "liberal" values (like affirmative action, addressing poverty, addressing income and wealth inequality, etc..) who are driven away from the Democrats when they feel they are always suspect of racism when interacting with minorities.
At a certain point they feel it is pointless to address it anymore. Feeling perhaps something like :"why even bother when the use of the word 'monkey', 'boy', 'articulate', et..al will make me an 'enemy' for ridiculous reasons"
Democrats (of which I am one) are spending too much effort trying to convince everyone that they are racists- and that is putting off a lot of voters who would lean our way without the accusation.
It is entirely possible, that the "Monkey" statement in conjunction with the "articulate" description was a very nuanced attempt to target those voters.
A better strategy (again IMO) for courting them might involve not jumping at every "racist" shadow that flashes by, and instead focusing on the things actually agreed on.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:34 PM   #242
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
It is odd, however, that he first described his opponent as "articulate." When used alone, it implies that being articulate is out of character (i.e., that black people usually aren't), and hence is a backhanded compliment. When used as praise or recognition, one normally says, "articulate, cogent, and persuasive" or some other conglomeration of adjectives.
So Joe Biden skates on this one (about Obama in 2007):

Quote:
"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:35 PM   #243
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,830
Howard Cosell must be rolling over in his grave.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:35 PM   #244
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,340
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So Joe Biden skates on this one (about Obama in 2007):
IIRC, he got roasted for it.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:36 PM   #245
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,340
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Howard Cosell must be rolling over in his grave.
Yeah, if only he lived a bit longer he could have called football players bastards and not even raised an eyebrow.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:39 PM   #246
Sherkeu
Muse
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 971
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently you are unaware of what a dog whistle (a literal one) is. If you can hear one sounded next to your ears, you are not a human. The whole notion of a figurative dog whistle is supposedly nobody hears it except racists. Hence my amusement at liberals hearing them everywhere.
I'm skeptical that any of these politicians would purposely try to reach out to some unknown percentage of actual racists with even the most subtle language. What is the goal? They aren't going to up and vote democrat, right? In Florida, you cannot alienate minority voters if you want to actually win. You need a broad appeal. So what is the imagined strategy here?
It sounds like a strategy for losing to me.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:48 PM   #247
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I'm skeptical that any of these politicians would purposely try to reach out to some unknown percentage of actual racists with even the most subtle language. What is the goal? They aren't going to up and vote democrat, right? In Florida, you cannot alienate minority voters if you want to actually win. You need a broad appeal. So what is the imagined strategy here?
It sounds like a strategy for losing to me.
I tried to express it clearly in #241.
The dog whistle isn't to rabid racists (what need? They will likely vote for this guy anyway) it could be a dog whistle to those who might feel that getting "roasted" for calling someone articulate is a bit off-putting.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 01:48 PM   #248
Imhotep
Muse
 
Imhotep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 851
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I'm skeptical that any of these politicians would purposely try to reach out to some unknown percentage of actual racists with even the most subtle language. What is the goal? They aren't going to up and vote democrat, right? In Florida, you cannot alienate minority voters if you want to actually win. You need a broad appeal. So what is the imagined strategy here?
It sounds like a strategy for losing to me.
I don't know, why does anyone cater to their base? To get more of them to vote I guess.

I think the best way to judge if something is a dog whistle is the reaction of the audience. Do they yell and cheer immediately after? (assuming it's in a speech to supporters)
Imhotep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 02:00 PM   #249
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,830
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I'm skeptical that any of these politicians would purposely try to reach out to some unknown percentage of actual racists with even the most subtle language. What is the goal? They aren't going to up and vote democrat, right? In Florida, you cannot alienate minority voters if you want to actually win. You need a broad appeal. So what is the imagined strategy here?
It sounds like a strategy for losing to me.
I suspect that a fair amount of racists vote Democrat. However, since Gillum is a black man, I doubt many racists (well, white racists) will vote for him.

Anybody remember when John McCain got the "you're using a dog whistle" treatment? McCain ran an ad showing Obama hanging out with Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. The clearly intended message was that he probably wasn't this brilliant thinker if he associated himself with those two airheads. But of course all the liberals heard the whistle. Some of the comments at the time illustrate perfectly why they have zero credibility when it comes to decrying the supposed racism of the GOP:

Quote:
No matter: Ezra Klein said the McCain campaign was "running crypto-racist ads." Bill Press called it "deliberately and deceptively racist." John Marshall argued that “the McCain campaign is now pushing the caricature of Obama as a uppity young black man whose presumptuousness is displayed not only in taking on airs above his station but also in a taste for young white women." Don Lemon accused the campaign of "creating a political environment that is inciting hate and hate speech."
Creating a political environment that is inciting hate and hate speech? Hmmm, where have I heard that BS recently?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 31st August 2018 at 02:02 PM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 02:11 PM   #250
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,160
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
In Florida, you cannot alienate minority voters if you want to actually win. You need a broad appeal.
From wiki: "The 2016 United States presidential election in Florida was won by Donald Trump on November 8, 2016..."

Quote:
So what is the imagined strategy here?
Fire up your bigot base and get them to the polls fueled by that clean, alternative energy source known as "white power".
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 02:11 PM   #251
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,420
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently you are unaware of what a dog whistle (a literal one) is. If you can hear one sounded next to your ears, you are not a human. The whole notion of a figurative dog whistle is supposedly nobody hears it except racists. Hence my amusement at liberals hearing them everywhere.
Because only a dog can tell something is a dog whistle. No one can, like, look at it, and see what dogs do when someone blows on it.
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 02:14 PM   #252
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,160
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Because only a dog can tell something is a dog whistle. No one can, like, look at it, and see what dogs do when someone blows on it.
It's also merely an analogy. They tend to be imperfect.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 02:24 PM   #253
Slings and Arrows
Graduate Poster
 
Slings and Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,743
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently you are unaware of what a dog whistle (a literal one) is. If you can hear one sounded next to your ears, you are not a human. The whole notion of a figurative dog whistle is supposedly nobody hears it except racists. Hence my amusement at liberals hearing them everywhere.

Apparently, some liberals can actually hear dog whistles. British Prime Minister Theresa May heard one recently and had a very bizarre reaction: (Here)
Slings and Arrows is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 02:46 PM   #254
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,195
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The "racially insensitive=oblivious=stupid" part of your argument is specifically what I am referring to.
There is a substantial set of white voters who would be (and in many cases already are) sympathetic to what are considered "liberal" values (like affirmative action, addressing poverty, addressing income and wealth inequality, etc..) who are driven away from the Democrats when they feel they are always suspect of racism when interacting with minorities.
At a certain point they feel it is pointless to address it anymore. Feeling perhaps something like :"why even bother when the use of the word 'monkey', 'boy', 'articulate', et..al will make me an 'enemy' for ridiculous reasons"
Democrats (of which I am one) are spending too much effort trying to convince everyone that they are racists- and that is putting off a lot of voters who would lean our way without the accusation.
It is entirely possible, that the "Monkey" statement in conjunction with the "articulate" description was a very nuanced attempt to target those voters.
A better strategy (again IMO) for courting them might involve not jumping at every "racist" shadow that flashes by, and instead focusing on the things actually agreed on.
I don't buy your argument. AT ALL. People aren't as stupid as you seem to portray them. I manage without much difficulty without calling African Americans 'boy' or vaguely alluding to them as monkey or apes or other racially insensitive terms. But that's just me I guess.

Also Gillum hasn't brought it up once. But he has been asked about it.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 04:02 PM   #255
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 75,787
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Apparently you are unaware of what a dog whistle (a literal one) is. If you can hear one sounded next to your ears, you are not a human. The whole notion of a figurative dog whistle is supposedly nobody hears it except racists. Hence my amusement at liberals hearing them everywhere.
Except that, contrary to actual dog whistles, there's no reason why non-racists couldn't learn to recognise them.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 04:19 PM   #256
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,420
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that, contrary to actual dog whistles, there's no reason why non-racists couldn't learn to recognise them.
That's not contrary. You can actually identify a literal dog whistle without being able to hear it, so indeed the analogy still applies, and the application by brainster is imprecise - that anyone would only be able to identify that it is a "dog whistle" term if they weren't the "dog".
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 04:22 PM   #257
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,534
And there was a series or racist robocalls in the Florida Governors race. The De Santis campaign is piously denouncing them as disgusting, but still is shows how ugly this race is going to get.
And I also won't take the word of a Trump sycophant for anything.
This country is being torn apart, and I am now convinced that those who are not seeing this do so only because they don't want to see it.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 31st August 2018 at 04:24 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 04:57 PM   #258
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,535
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And there was a series or racist robocalls in the Florida Governors race. The De Santis campaign is piously denouncing them as disgusting, but still is shows how ugly this race is going to get.
And I also won't take the word of a Trump sycophant for anything.
This country is being torn apart, and I am now convinced that those who are not seeing this do so only because they don't want to see it.

Most likely.

And then there are the ones who are seeing it, but don't care.

And the ones who see it just fine ... and approve, but won't admit it.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 05:47 PM   #259
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,356
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
He's making fun of dogs that bark for some reason when a guy blows a little metal device, because he thinks the dogs are imagining things, since he himself does not hear a whistle, and therefore it couldn't be that.
I'm mostly just amused that people are talking about "dog whistles"...

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The "racially insensitive=oblivious=stupid" part of your argument is specifically what I am referring to.
There is a substantial set of white voters who would be (and in many cases already are) sympathetic to what are considered "liberal" values (like affirmative action, addressing poverty, addressing income and wealth inequality, etc..) who are driven away from the Democrats when they feel they are always suspect of racism when interacting with minorities.
All I got from this is "How dare you expect straight white men to understand basic social norms!" And to that I say - welcome to 1/10th of what everyone else goes through!

Now, if I thought DeSantis were trying to win over any nonwhite voters, I'd point out that he should have learned how to not piss people off long ago - but in reality, I think he's only trying to win over white supremacists and the fools who spent years telling us all about how Dolt 45 was not at all racist, so all I can say is that "the republicans are who I thought they were". I have no actual say in any race in Florida, so I guess it's just going to be the black guy who wants to look out for everyone, versus the white supremacist aligned follow-up to the medicare cheat who will happily pollute the environment.

And if Florida as a whole keeps chosing for the latter, well, I'll feel bad for the people who live there and are against the white supremacists that are working to sink half the state into the ocean, but not much I can do about it.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:10 PM   #260
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't buy your argument. AT ALL. People aren't as stupid as you seem to portray them. I manage without much difficulty without calling African Americans 'boy' or vaguely alluding to them as monkey or apes or other racially insensitive terms. But that's just me I guess.

Also Gillum hasn't brought it up once. But he has been asked about it.
I guess we just differ then. I referred to an African American as a "boy" just this past Sunday, and frequently use terms such as "monkey around","monkey wrench","monkey see-monkey do", and "monkey suit" without hesitation.

Your allegation that this makes me "stupid", and that my use of the word "monkey" in an expression is a "vague allusion to African Americans" is exactly what I am talking about.
I do not need to defend my innocent use of English. Your vilification of my innocent word choice makes you seem to me a bit less than completely rational- and further, someone you wouldn't want on "your side" even though our viewpoints are very similar.

Were I an independent voter in Florida, being reminded that "the left" considers me an enemy because I refer to a male juvenile as a "boy", and to foolish behavior as "monkeying around" is not going to get me to the polling booth to pull the lever for the Democrats.

That is the (possible) subtlety of the comments by DiSantis I am seeing.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:28 PM   #261
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,195
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I guess we just differ then. I referred to an African American as a "boy" just this past Sunday, and frequently use terms such as "monkey around","monkey wrench","monkey see-monkey do", and "monkey suit" without hesitation.

Your allegation that this makes me "stupid", and that my use of the word "monkey" in an expression is a "vague allusion to African Americans" is exactly what I am talking about.
I do not need to defend my innocent use of English. Your vilification of my innocent word choice makes you seem to me a bit less than completely rational- and further, someone you wouldn't want on "your side" even though our viewpoints are very similar.

Were I an independent voter in Florida, being reminded that "the left" considers me an enemy because I refer to a male juvenile as a "boy", and to foolish behavior as "monkeying around" is not going to get me to the polling booth to pull the lever for the Democrats.

That is the (possible) subtlety of the comments by DeSantis I am seeing.
You're racially insensitive. You may not be a bigot, but you're definitely clueless about this. What white person in their right mind would call an African American 'boy'? I've also used the term monkey wrench or monkey it up but never, never, never ever would I use it when referring to an African American or African. It's all about context and I don't believe you are so oblivious to not see how wrong that would be.

Note, I didn't call you stupid. I was referring to the plausible deniability of using these kind of terms such as in the way Desantis used. Like we can't tell exactly what he was doing. I'm saying the rest of us are not so stupid and unaware.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:44 PM   #262
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I'm mostly just amused that people are talking about "dog whistles"...



All I got from this is "How dare you expect straight white men to understand basic social norms!" And to that I say - welcome to 1/10th of what everyone else goes through!

Now, if I thought DeSantis were trying to win over any nonwhite voters, I'd point out that he should have learned how to not piss people off long ago - but in reality, I think he's only trying to win over white supremacists and the fools who spent years telling us all about how Dolt 45 was not at all racist, so all I can say is that "the republicans are who I thought they were". I have no actual say in any race in Florida, so I guess it's just going to be the black guy who wants to look out for everyone, versus the white supremacist aligned follow-up to the medicare cheat who will happily pollute the environment.

And if Florida as a whole keeps chosing for the latter, well, I'll feel bad for the people who live there and are against the white supremacists that are working to sink half the state into the ocean, but not much I can do about it.
To make it clearer, let me compare it to something that has a similar component.
The admittedly real scenario of the white person or people who do things like clutching their purses more tightly when a black man approaches them, or move to the furthest point in an elevator when a black man enters, or call the police when witnessing a black person doing something that they may not call the police over otherwise.
Each scenario has in common (among other things, I am sure) a component of mentally convicting someone of ill intent when their behavior is innocent and normal.
I empathize with someone who, after experiencing this sort of treatment repeatedly, and over time, begins to resent it. I can imagine how it might provoke a reaction that further separates the victim from the majority due to this "presumption of guilt", it makes sense to me, and to most others, I think.

Is it terribly difficult to understand, then, how a "racist unless proven non-racist" attitude towards a group might provoke a similar resentment and reluctance to support an organization or party that seems to be pushing that philosophy?

It is possible that DeSantis used the word "monkey" as a deliberate attempt to display racism towards black people. That seems pointless politically, as I don't think he is in any danger whatsoever of losing the racist vote.
It is also possible that he used it completely innocently. In which case making a big deal about it portrays his opponents as quick to apply the label "racist" to any "straight white male" (is it not possible for a gay white female to be racist?)

It is also possible, that it was a calculated statement designed to provoke a reaction from vocal members of the opposition that still portrays the "left" as being very quick to apply the "racist" label. He is, in this case, not attempting to draw the racist voters (whom he already has), or the minority voters (whom he is not going to get), but is instead trying to draw the "straight white male" (and "straight white male" sympathizers) who are undecided (or maybe even registered Democrats), and feel a bit resentful at being considered guilty until proven innocent of racism.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:46 PM   #263
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're racially insensitive. You may not be a bigot, but you're definitely clueless about this. What white person in their right mind would call an African American 'boy'? I've also used the term monkey wrench or monkey it up but never, never, never ever would I use it when referring to an African American or African. It's all about context and I don't believe you are so oblivious to not see how wrong that would be.

Note, I didn't call you stupid. I was referring to the plausible deniability of using these kind of terms such as in the way Desantis used. Like we can't tell exactly what he was doing. I'm saying the rest of us are not so stupid and unaware.
Sorry, but "boy" is my go-to term for referring to a juvenile male human. I do not feel I need the intervention of a psychologist for that affliction.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:48 PM   #264
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,821
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So Joe Biden skates on this one (about Obama in 2007):
I kinda thought that he caught hell for that, and plausibly so.

Biden has a history of sticking his foot in his mouth and that's really one of the prime examples. Why might you think that folks have forgotten that event?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:49 PM   #265
Slings and Arrows
Graduate Poster
 
Slings and Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,743
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Were I an independent voter in Florida, being reminded that "the left" considers me an enemy because I refer to a male juvenile as a "boy", and to foolish behavior as "monkeying around" is not going to get me to the polling booth to pull the lever for the Democrats.

Pull the lever?

That sounds like a dog whistle for "spank the monkey."
Slings and Arrows is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 06:59 PM   #266
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,758
The interesting thing, to me, about DeSantis's gaffe is that it can't help him, only hurt. Regardless of the intent. Those who'd respond to the dog whistle weren't going to vote for the black guy anyhow. But there's a certain number of undecideds who will be sufficiently offended by it to vote against him.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 07:05 PM   #267
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The interesting thing, to me, about DeSantis's gaffe is that it can't help him, only hurt. Regardless of the intent. Those who'd respond to the dog whistle weren't going to vote for the black guy anyhow. But there's a certain number of undecideds who will be sufficiently offended by it to vote against him.
And perhaps he is gambling that a larger number of undecideds will be pushed away from his opponent if they perceive them as being too quick to cry "racist"

Assuming, of course , that it was a calculated statement
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

Last edited by Distracted1; 31st August 2018 at 07:07 PM.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 07:06 PM   #268
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,195
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Sorry, but "boy" is my go-to term for referring to a juvenile male human. I do not feel I need the intervention of a psychologist for that affliction.
You may not need a psychologist, but you sure could use to learn some manners.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 07:12 PM   #269
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You may not need a psychologist, but you sure could use to learn some manners.
To my thinking, applying separate manners to people based on skin tone is the same as having none at all.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 07:17 PM   #270
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,420
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Sorry, but "boy" is my go-to term for referring to a juvenile male human. I do not feel I need the intervention of a psychologist for that affliction.
If car window stickers are any indication (and why the heck not???), the correct modern term is "little dude".
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 07:39 PM   #271
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
If car window stickers are any indication (and why the heck not???), the correct modern term is "little dude".
I can conceive of no answer to your question.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 07:54 PM   #272
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,195
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
To my thinking, applying separate manners to people based on skin tone is the same as having none at all.
Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 08:08 PM   #273
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
The literal meaning of the word "can" in this context aside.

No, a "man of color" can not use the word "******".
And admonishing a couple of kids to "leave that 'son' alone" is just an awkward sentence (although he is certainly someone's son, so I guess it is linguistically acceptable), further if I said to his mother something akin to "your daughter is quite tall" I would not be in the least bit shocked if he self-identified himself to me by saying "I am a boy"
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 08:17 PM   #274
Sherkeu
Muse
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 971
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
This isn't true where I live in S. Cal. When I moved to Baltimore in the 90's I had to learn the things I couldn't say (and despite my best efforts, I messed up on 'boy' ALL the time!). All these rules and sensitivities are much more prevalent on the east coast- especially the south.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 08:35 PM   #275
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
This isn't true where I live in S. Cal. When I moved to Baltimore in the 90's I had to learn the things I couldn't say (and despite my best efforts, I messed up on 'boy' ALL the time!). All these rules and sensitivities are much more prevalent on the east coast- especially the south.
Interestingly, did you feel guilty of racism when you "messed up" (as you put it) and referred to a boy as a boy (I presume)?

If someone ruled you a racist for using an innocuous term, how much energy would you devote to defending against such an accusation before simply giving up on the accuser and deciding that the two of you simply don't need each other's company?

Edit: the preceding was not a personal attack, I am not trying to put you on the spot. If you have been following the thread you will see that that is something germaine to the discussion.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

Last edited by Distracted1; 31st August 2018 at 08:39 PM.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 08:55 PM   #276
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,195
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The literal meaning of the word "can" in this context aside.

No, a "man of color" can not use the word "******".
And admonishing a couple of kids to "leave that 'son' alone" is just an awkward sentence (although he is certainly someone's son, so I guess it is linguistically acceptable), further if I said to his mother something akin to "your daughter is quite tall" I would not be in the least bit shocked if he self-identified himself to me by saying "I am a boy"
My parents taught me to care about the feelings of others. To consider what I say before I say it and how the listener might feel about my words. Plain old courtesy. But I guess we weren't raised the same way.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 08:57 PM   #277
Slings and Arrows
Graduate Poster
 
Slings and Arrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,743
My first grade teacher would begin each day with: "Good morning boys and girls." The woman was obviously a rabid white supremacist, she even made us stand while saying the pledge of allegiance.

I have never got over the horrible trauma of those early years.
Slings and Arrows is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 09:07 PM   #278
Sherkeu
Muse
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 971
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interestingly, did you feel guilty of racism when you "messed up" (as you put it) and referred to a boy as a boy (I presume)?

If someone ruled you a racist for using an innocuous term, how much energy would you devote to defending against such an accusation before simply giving up on the accuser and deciding that the two of you simply don't need each other's company?
I never felt guilty and was not accused of any racism (that I know of). I was simply 'the girl from California' and they understood that I didn't grow up with those meanings.

The first exchange I recall was when a black male friend asked why I wasn't dating a person and I said "Because he is such a boy."
"He's a what?"
"A boy!"
"You're saying he is a boy?"
"Yes, as in not-yet-a-man, childish and immature. You know, a BOY!"
"Oh, well that means something a little different here".

He explained how it could sound different than what I was used to....and we carried on with the day.

Any defense of an accusation would take me less than a minute. If the discussion took more than 5 minutes to settle, I'd probably just give up. (I'm not fond of being told what I'm really thinking- in any context.) Fortunately, the people in my life so far haven't insulted me that way.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 09:19 PM   #279
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My parents taught me to care about the feelings of others. To consider what I say before I say it and how the listener might feel about my words. Plain old courtesy. But I guess we weren't raised the same way.
A good upbringing, I am sure.
My parents were more liberal perhaps. I was raised not to presume that I knew how someone else would feel about something, just tell the truth and don't call other people names.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st August 2018, 09:31 PM   #280
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,572
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I never felt guilty and was not accused of any racism (that I know of). I was simply 'the girl from California' and they understood that I didn't grow up with those meanings.

The first exchange I recall was when a black male friend asked why I wasn't dating a person and I said "Because he is such a boy."
"He's a what?"
"A boy!"
"You're saying he is a boy?"
"Yes, as in not-yet-a-man, childish and immature. You know, a BOY!"
"Oh, well that means something a little different here".

He explained how it could sound different than what I was used to....and we carried on with the day.

Any defense of an accusation would take me less than a minute. If the discussion took more than 5 minutes to settle, I'd probably just give up. (I'm not fond of being told what I'm really thinking- in any context.) Fortunately, the people in my life so far haven't insulted me that way.
Thank you for that. I share your disdain for being told what my "real" motives are. I feel there are a great many people who also feel that way.

As it relates to this discussion, I think some Republicans might be Trying to tap in to that emotion. I would be happier if the Democratic leadership gave a thought to that strategy.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:20 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.