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Old 11th August 2018, 05:33 AM   #41
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Is this thread legal? It sounds like a violation of the Treason Felony Act.
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Old 11th August 2018, 05:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yeah, the French got plenty of my money when I did a bike tour of the Loire Valley and the Château and no one expected me to bow to anyone. Send your inbred to trailer parks like we do in the US and open the castles to the tourists.

ETA: It's 2018, why on earth do you still have the lucky sperm club involved in your government? They've never been elected and never passed the civil service exam. Why are they involved in your government at all?
Good question. The queen is popular and has no role in government except as a backstop in the event of a constituional crisis, so I don't have a problem with that. If she wants to go to horse races that's OK, all her family resemble those animals and sound like them too.

The house of lords is another matter, made up of heredities, bishops and political appointees, and should be replaced by a democratically elected chamber to provide check and balance to the executive. It could even be made non-political. No more illegal wars like Iraq.
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Old 11th August 2018, 06:37 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh dear, Darat. You do look at the world through a jaded eye.

It's a bloody hard job. How many people do you know who are still working at age 92?
Define 'work'.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:03 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh dear, Darat. You do look at the world through a jaded eye.

It's a bloody hard job. How many people do you know who are still working at age 92?
I'm sure if more people had lived the life she has they would still be able "to work" as she does at 92.

ETA and your post shows how good the Royal propaganda is, how can we criticise this little old 92 year old woman still struggling to do her bit for the country? First of all she no longer does a fifth of the "work" she used to, and but still draws the same salary, if she isn't capable of doing the job she is paid to do she should retire like everyone else has to. And secondly, my criticism isn't based on what she does today but what she did 60, 50, 40, 30 years ago. On a personal level I'm understanding of the fact that a 92 year old can't do what they did just 10 years ago, however that her feelings of entitlement, and her ego won't let her retire should be her problem not mine and the country's.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:04 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Good question. The queen is popular and has no role in government except as a backstop in the event of a constituional crisis, so I don't have a problem with that. If she wants to go to horse races that's OK, all her family resemble those animals and sound like them too.

The house of lords is another matter, made up of heredities, bishops and political appointees, and should be replaced by a democratically elected chamber to provide check and balance to the executive. It could even be made non-political. No more illegal wars like Iraq.
The Queen is consulted on legislation, she does have a role in government, it is just one our government tries to hide.

Why should I as a tax payer pay for her to go to the races?
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:49 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The Queen is consulted on legislation, she does have a role in government, it is just one our government tries to hide.

Why should I as a tax payer pay for her to go to the races?
Well, yes, but not much really.

The royalty probably pays for itself by encouraging tourism. Although as someone above said, you could do quite well by opening all the palaces.

Anyway, public opinion says it's not going to change anytime soon.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:57 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The Queen is consulted on legislation, she does have a role in government, it is just one our government tries to hide.

Why should I as a tax payer pay for her to go to the races?
Still better investment then paying current set of people pretending to be ministers presiding over mass suicide (Brexitus).
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Old 11th August 2018, 11:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why should I as a tax payer pay for her to go to the races?
Because as long as she's happy she'll cling to life, and the longer she clings to life the shorter a time you'll have Charles as king.
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Old 11th August 2018, 12:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because as long as she's happy she'll cling to life, and the longer she clings to life the shorter a time you'll have Charles as king.
Fair point, well made.
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Old 11th August 2018, 12:32 PM   #50
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I would be interested to know what percentage of the UK population are in favour of either the restriction or abolition of the monarchy
I see zero desire to change the status quo in the country. The Queen has been on the throne longer than I have been alive and she is
universally loved. Of course things may change when the next incumbent takes his place but that is a problem for the future not now
The Queen is very old but while she is alive the monarchy is in very safe hands. It will though be a very black day when she does go
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Old 11th August 2018, 12:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
I would be interested to know what percentage of the UK population are in favour of either the restriction or abolition of the monarchy
I see zero desire to change the status quo in the country. The Queen has been on the throne longer than I have been alive and she is
universally loved. Of course things may change when the next incumbent takes his place but that is a problem for the future not now
The Queen is very old but while she is alive the monarchy is in very safe hands. It will though be a very black day when she does go
Well, it could be a good opportunity for change.
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Old 11th August 2018, 01:09 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
I would be interested to know what percentage of the UK population are in favour of either the restriction or abolition of the monarchy
I see zero desire to change the status quo in the country. The Queen has been on the throne longer than I have been alive and she is
universally loved. Of course things may change when the next incumbent takes his place but that is a problem for the future not now
The Queen is very old but while she is alive the monarchy is in very safe hands. It will though be a very black day when she does go
Or ... the British public have been taught, subtly, to 'love' the monarch.

Back in the day, Queen Victoria was roundly detested - in phases - by the public, for a variety of reasons, and the subject of a number of assassination attempts. 'The Palace' increasingly formalised the monarch's role and concentrated more on public ceremonial displays but with less direct involvement with the events of the era.

So, over the years, The Crown has become little more than a bunch of magnificent ceremonies from time to time, and much of the public laps it up. It's not so *very* different from the military parades in NK. But hey, look how the Queen's popularity plummeted when she didn't 'properly' observe the death of Diana (another object of mindless public worship).

One thing it ain't is the behaviour of a mature democracy. It's 'the opium of the people' in the UK, for many at least.
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Old 11th August 2018, 01:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm sure if more people had lived the life she has they would still be able "to work" as she does at 92.

ETA and your post shows how good the Royal propaganda is, how can we criticise this little old 92 year old woman still struggling to do her bit for the country? First of all she no longer does a fifth of the "work" she used to, and but still draws the same salary, if she isn't capable of doing the job she is paid to do she should retire like everyone else has to. And secondly, my criticism isn't based on what she does today but what she did 60, 50, 40, 30 years ago. On a personal level I'm understanding of the fact that a 92 year old can't do what they did just 10 years ago, however that her feelings of entitlement, and her ego won't let her retire should be her problem not mine and the country's.
If we are going to have a seventeenth century anachronism, we may as well go the whole hog, and bow and curtsey. Bring back beheadings. Either the Queen is noble or she is not. People thought it hilarious when some African chap in the Congo donned a crown and ermine robes and pronounced himself Crown Regent (king), yet see nothing ironic about HM Elizabeth having done the same. She could barely wait to shove Edward and Wallace out of the door so she could take over.

They are all pretenders. William & Mary wheeled in to keep out the Catholics.

Problem is, she is head of the armed forces and the church. No democracy can touch her.
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Old 11th August 2018, 01:17 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Or ... the British public have been taught, subtly, to 'love' the monarch.

Back in the day, Queen Victoria was roundly detested - in phases - by the public, for a variety of reasons, and the subject of a number of assassination attempts. 'The Palace' increasingly formalised the monarch's role and concentrated more on public ceremonial displays but with less direct involvement with the events of the era.

So, over the years, The Crown has become little more than a bunch of magnificent ceremonies from time to time, and much of the public laps it up. It's not so *very* different from the military parades in NK. But hey, look how the Queen's popularity plummeted when she didn't 'properly' observe the death of Diana (another object of mindless public worship).

One thing it ain't is the behaviour of a mature democracy. It's 'the opium of the people' in the UK, for many at least.
But seriously, though. Who'd want to be like France or the USA.
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Old 11th August 2018, 01:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But seriously, though. Who'd want to be like France or the USA.
Not me. I'd like to be like the UK, but without the monarchy bollocks (even though I moved out of the UK, but that wasn't to escape the monarchy ) But now you mention it, France is OK.
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Old 11th August 2018, 03:11 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How many people do you know who are still working at age 92?
My generation are waiting to see if we get a choice in the matter.
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Old 11th August 2018, 11:52 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
I would be interested to know what percentage of the UK population are in favour of either the restriction or abolition of the monarchy
I see zero desire to change the status quo in the country. The Queen has been on the throne longer than I have been alive and she is
universally loved. Of course things may change when the next incumbent takes his place but that is a problem for the future not now
The Queen is very old but while she is alive the monarchy is in very safe hands. It will though be a very black day when she does go
I'm going to disagree in that her being universally loved is quite a recent thing, mostly brought on by 1) her getting old and 2) very good PR campaign after Diana's death. You only need to read newspapers in say the 5 years before Diana's death and at the time of her death to see a totally different view of the Queen.
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Old 11th August 2018, 11:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But seriously, though. Who'd want to be like France or the USA.
Since in the UK Parliament is supreme we already have a head of state, the PM. We don't need to replace the monarchy with anything.
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Old 12th August 2018, 01:08 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She could barely wait to shove Edward and Wallace out of the door so she could take over.

Poor old George VI, airbrushed out of history like Richard IV!
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Old 12th August 2018, 06:22 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
ETA and your post shows how good the Royal propaganda is, how can we criticise this little old 92 year old woman still struggling to do her bit for the country? First of all she no longer does a fifth of the "work" she used to, and but still draws the same salary, if she isn't capable of doing the job she is paid to do she should retire like everyone else has to.
The Sovereign Grant isn't a "salary," but rather it covers the expenses of Royal duties, whoever is actually carrying them out.

Even so, what salary ties the recipient 24/7? She is entitled to time off, the same as the rest of us.
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Old 12th August 2018, 06:36 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Poor old George VI, airbrushed out of history like Richard IV!
Yeah, I missed that comment Liz was 10 at the time.
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Old 12th August 2018, 08:13 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yeah, I missed that comment Liz was 10 at the time.

Also, I think “Wallace” was the lion that ate young Albert Ramsbottom.
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Old 12th August 2018, 10:23 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The Sovereign Grant isn't a "salary," but rather it covers the expenses of Royal duties, whoever is actually carrying them out.

Even so, what salary ties the recipient 24/7? She is entitled to time off, the same as the rest of us.
A bit like serving in the military. Nicer barracks though.
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Old 12th August 2018, 10:39 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The Sovereign Grant isn't a "salary," but rather it covers the expenses of Royal duties, whoever is actually carrying them out.

Even so, what salary ties the recipient 24/7? She is entitled to time off, the same as the rest of us.
Play with semantics as much as you like, but she is paid to do a job, one she apparently can no longer carry out (and was bad at it in the past when she was quite physically capable of doing it).
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Old 12th August 2018, 10:44 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yeah, I missed that comment Liz was 10 at the time.
It was the that social climber Bowes-Lyon who made hay with the abdication, she hadn't managed to snag the heir to the throne first time so she shagged his brother and had to settle for second place until she grasped the opportunity to become Queen consort.
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Old 12th August 2018, 11:48 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Since in the UK Parliament is supreme we already have a head of state, the PM. We don't need to replace the monarchy with anything.
Heaven forfend if UK Prime Ministers become Republican Presidents!
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Old 12th August 2018, 11:50 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It was the that social climber Bowes-Lyon who made hay with the abdication, she hadn't managed to snag the heir to the throne first time so she shagged his brother and had to settle for second place until she grasped the opportunity to become Queen consort.
Apparently, she was the daughter of a kitchen maid.
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Old 12th August 2018, 12:50 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Apparently, she was the daughter of a kitchen maid.
Hmmm...

Cecilia Nina Bowes-Lyon, Countess of Strathmore and Kinghorne was her mother - doesn't seem to be a kitchen maid!
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Old 12th August 2018, 12:54 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Apparently, she was the daughter of a kitchen maid.
After this and your previous comment, I'm wondering whether you're channeling moomins? Or did you watch The Crown and just catch fragments of it?
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Old 12th August 2018, 04:08 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
On a personal level I'm understanding of the fact that a 92 year old can't do what they did just 10 years ago, however that her feelings of entitlement, and her ego won't let her retire should be her problem not mine and the country's.
I thought it had to do with English/British tradition that a monarch doesn't abdicate for old age but dies on the throne? Which, I think, is a silly tradition.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Since in the UK Parliament is supreme we already have a head of state, the PM. We don't need to replace the monarchy with anything.
Personally, I like the idea that the ribboncutter-in-chief is a different person than the political head of government, but I'd prefer it to not be a hereditary position.
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Old 12th August 2018, 04:10 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If it is tourism we are looking for I suggest we go down the French route, they seem to have managed to get all the tourism they need from their royals at the lowest cost.
Yeah, I never understood this argument. What's there to see at Buckingham Palace? Do away with the monarchy and you can turn it into a museum and ask an entrance fee.
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Old 12th August 2018, 04:15 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What will happen to the image of the Royal Family, I wonder, after the end of the present reign, if it ever does end? The Queen is very good at her job, such as it is, and enjoys wide public respect and even affection. Will these be extended to her heirs?
The odds are against him. 50% of English monarchs named "Charles" ended on the chopping block. Ditto for Scottish ones.
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Old 12th August 2018, 06:39 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Hmmm...

Cecilia Nina Bowes-Lyon, Countess of Strathmore and Kinghorne was her mother - doesn't seem to be a kitchen maid!
Think again:

Quote:
The author Lady Colin Campbell claims cook Marguerite Rodiere gave birth to the future Queen Elizabeth in an arrangement described as “an early version of surrogacy”.

She alleges that the practice was not unusual among the upper classes at that time and came about because her own mother Cecilia, who already had eight children, was unable to have any more.

This explains the nickname “Cookie” given to the Queen Mother by the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Lady Colin says.

It also suggests why the Queen Mother, born the Honourable Elizabeth Angela Marguerite Bowes Lyon, was given a French middle name, it is claimed.

The theory is set out in Lady Colin's latest book -
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...hy-claims.html
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:15 AM   #74
surreptitious57
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The Queen is supposed to be apolitical but she has the power of veto over any prospective legislation and can block it simply
because she wants to. Prince Charles has the same power too and has on occasion actually used it. But unelected individuals
regardless of who they actually are do not have the moral authority to decide what should not be appearing upon the statute
of a liberal democracy. And all the other unelected individuals [ aka the House Of Lords ] should not be deciding upon it either
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:28 AM   #75
Diablo
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
The Queen is supposed to be apolitical but she has the power of veto over any prospective legislation and can block it simply
because she wants to. Prince Charles has the same power too and has on occasion actually used it. But unelected individuals
regardless of who they actually are do not have the moral authority to decide what should not be appearing upon the statute
of a liberal democracy. And all the other unelected individuals [ aka the House Of Lords ] should not be deciding upon it either
I didn't know that Charles vetoed anything - what was it?

I agree about the Lords - see my post above.
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Old 13th August 2018, 11:18 AM   #76
Darat
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
I didn't know that Charles vetoed anything - what was it?

I agree about the Lords - see my post above.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/...to-legislation

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/...als-veto-bills
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Old 13th August 2018, 11:33 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks for the links. Completely unacceptable and should be cancelled.

In Charles' case it's corruption since he sought to protect his interests.
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Old 13th August 2018, 02:09 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Play with semantics as much as you like, but she is paid to do a job, one she apparently can no longer carry out (and was bad at it in the past when she was quite physically capable of doing it).
No, the Sovereign Grant covers the cost of royal duties, whoever carries them out. It's expenses, not a salary. The Queen has never done everything, so trying to make an issue out of her now doing less and others doing more is pretty weak.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 13th August 2018 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 13th August 2018, 04:06 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
I would be interested to know what percentage of the UK population are in favour of either the restriction or abolition of the monarchy
Yougov poll from three years back shows 68% of people think it's good for Britain (only 9% bad), and 62% think Britain will still have a monarchy in 100 years.

It's not going anywhere unless something extraordinary happens.

Quote:
Of course things may change when the next incumbent takes his place but that is a problem for the future not now
I think people are going to be smart enough to disassociate the office from the holder. Many Americans hate Trump, but I suspect very few of them want to abolish the Presidency because of Trump. It will be no different with Charles, who isn't even near the crazy that Trump is.
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Old 13th August 2018, 04:11 PM   #80
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