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Old 13th August 2018, 11:40 PM   #81
Darat
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, the Sovereign Grant covers the cost of royal duties, whoever carries them out. It's expenses, not a salary. The Queen has never done everything, so trying to make an issue out of her now doing less and others doing more is pretty weak.
Yet I've made it clear that I accept a 92 year old can't do as much as a younger person....
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Old 14th August 2018, 04:50 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet I've made it clear that I accept a 92 year old can't do as much as a younger person....
That's what she wants to you believe! In reality, the queen is a Sith Lord, and can throw any number of CGI objects at you while cackling madly (she's doing the mad cackling. Well, I guess you could as well, but it would just come across as weird if you were both cackling madly during the fight. Although I guess that might psychologically undermine her a bit, and maybe cause her to not attack as well as she could? The mad cackling could save your life! You should do it, always) and whirling around through the air and doing parkour and using a lightsaber to cut Jedi as if they were Fergie at a garden party.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:25 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Good question. Charles and Camilla would not be a good act imo, but I doubt there's any way to skip directly to Wills.
Sure there is. Just make sure that the Queen outlives Charles. Ask Putin for help if necessary to ensure that happens.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:54 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Sure there is. Just make sure that the Queen outlives Charles. Ask Putin for help if necessary to ensure that happens.
Tut, tut.
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Old 16th August 2018, 01:46 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I think people are going to be smart enough to disassociate the office from the holder. Many Americans hate Trump, but I suspect very few of them want to abolish the Presidency because of Trump. It will be no different with Charles, who isn't even near the crazy that Trump is.
I'm not sure it's so clear cut when the office is life long and hereditry, you almost certainly feel that eight years of Trump is better than civil war, sixty plus years followed by President-for-Life Ivanka might make you more inclined toward a major shake up*. The office and the holder aren't so clearly separated when the holder is (for practical purposes) unreplaceable and the succession predetermined.

*This isn't to imply a direct equivalence between Brenda and Brian, and Cheeto and Ivanka, or between the offices of US President and Monarch of the UK et al.
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Old 16th August 2018, 02:17 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by surreptitious57 View Post
she is universally loved.
No, she isn't.



Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The odds are against him. 50% of English monarchs named "Charles" ended on the chopping block. Ditto for Scottish ones.
I think there's a fair chance that his regnal name won't be Charles.
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Old 16th August 2018, 02:20 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think there's a fair chance that his regnal name won't be Charles.
Don't blame him, it's associated with two bad kings and a right prat of a prince.
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Old 16th August 2018, 02:39 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
[...]you almost certainly feel that eight years of Trump is better than civil war, sixty plus years[...]
I don't think Brian's quite unpopular enough for us to fight a civil war over him. And I very much doubt he'll last another sixty years.

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Old 16th August 2018, 03:07 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Don't blame him, it's associated with two bad kings and a right prat of a prince.
Don't forget the Swedish King Charles'. At least six of them were fictional. One was a bloodthirsty Calvinist butcher (cf Linköping blood bath, Åbo bloodbath, Vyborg bloodbath: when a whole bunch of Catholic bishops were beheaded and their heads placed on railing spikes [Vyborg]) Charles 'IX' (actually, the third) and then there was Charles XI who ripped away free estates and made them taxable in order to raise funds for his own coffers.

Not good. Not good at all. Whatever possessed her Maj to name her heir Charles..?
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Old 16th August 2018, 03:12 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't forget the Swedish King Charles'. At least six of them were fictional.
I had to look that up. And I thought our Charles was a nutter!

Dave
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Old 16th August 2018, 03:49 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I thought it had to do with English/British tradition that a monarch doesn't abdicate for old age but dies on the throne? Which, I think, is a silly tradition.
.
Couldn't agree more. Why can't they leave the role on the end of a rope?
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Old 16th August 2018, 05:12 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I thought it had to do with English/British tradition that a monarch doesn't abdicate for old age but dies on the throne? Which, I think, is a silly tradition.

...snip...
"tradition" for the current lot is whatever they want to make up. "Prince of Wales Investiture" for an example of the made-up traditions they like to pretend exist.
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Old 16th August 2018, 08:14 AM   #93
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There is a kind of satire on the Queen on YouTube with comedian Stanley Baxter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZjIpb-iInk
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Old 16th August 2018, 08:30 AM   #94
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There is a chapter about the Crown in the Commonwealth in the book Afternoon Light 1967 by former Australian Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies:

Quote:
In addition to this, it has, in recent years, become vulgarly fashionable to write and publish in England denigratory articles about the Crown and (for good measures) about the Royal family. The attackers, whose names will perhaps occur to you, wear the mask of the disillusioned intellectual, a mask which conceals their own inverted snobbery. They have not wit enough to realize that to occupy much time in attacking something which they affect to despise is to reveal their own lack of perspective.

But if they wish to be rid of the Monarchy, and substitute an elected President; if they wish to convert Buckingham Palace into a White House, which will attract its own 'social circle', if they affect to prefer the publicity which attaches to a President's family to the publicity which attaches to the Queen's family; then there are some facts to be faced. As a loyal Monarchist, I will endeavour to state some of them...……….
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Old 16th August 2018, 05:33 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I don't think Brian's quite unpopular enough for us to fight a civil war over him. And I very much doubt he'll last another sixty years.

Dave
I specifically stated that they, and the roles were not equivalent. And the sixty years referred to the Queen not Charles. Oh, and 'civil war' was a slightly hyperbolic 'worst case scenario' of removing Trump not Brian.

But anyway the point wasn't directly even about the Queen or Charles as specific individuals, but rather that if you had a truly terrible (or simply hugely unpopular) Monarch/Head of State and no practical way of replacing them or preventing their heir inheriting the role it will have a greater effect on turning peoples opinions against the role than if the incumbent can, or indeed must, be changed in a reasonable period and people have their say on the succession.

While the distinction between Office and Holder is certainly still there, it is less clearly seperate when the role is tied exclusively to specific individuals in a single family and the successes and failures of the Holder have more effect on perception of the Office.
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Old 17th August 2018, 02:58 AM   #96
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The problem is that there could be a referendum about the Monarchy in the future which Charles and Camilla might lose.
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Old 17th August 2018, 05:18 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The problem is that there could be a referendum about the Monarchy in the future which Charles and Camilla might lose.
That's a nice thought, but - evidence?
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:09 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
Good question. The queen is popular and has no role in government except as a backstop in the event of a constituional crisis, so I don't have a problem with that. If she wants to go to horse races that's OK, all her family resemble those animals and sound like them too.

The house of lords is another matter, made up of heredities, bishops and political appointees, and should be replaced by a democratically elected chamber to provide check and balance to the executive. It could even be made non-political. No more illegal wars like Iraq.
Or you could create an amalgamation of several districts in the House of Commons and create an Upper House like the Senate. Don't be so strict and require two senators from every senatorial district. We made that mistake. Now we're stuck caring what the two senators from Wyoming want when they only represent a couple hundred thousand sheep *******. I mean seriously, let's give the whole state a pair of Velcro gloves and they can **** right off.
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Couldn't agree more. Why can't they leave the role on the end of a rope?
Decapitation would be more traditional.
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Old 17th August 2018, 10:41 PM   #100
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For some reason I thought Charles took himself out of the running years ago. Or maybe there was just speculation that his divorce and second marriage would be problematic.

I think Theresa May looks good in that photo! She has nice legs, and lunges in heels must take some strength. It doesn't look like the curtsies I'm used to seeing, but Google image disagrees.

ETA: Well this is sad. Bicycle accident in London killed QEII's personal physician. It was national Bike-To-Work day. I'm curious about the details - I LOVE biking in London, but mainly when it's full light at 5 a.m. and no traffic so my American muscle memory won't get me killed.

Last edited by Minoosh; 17th August 2018 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 18th August 2018, 01:02 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think there's a fair chance that his regnal name won't be Charles.

“I know, but, somehow I always think of you as Charlie.” - Hercules Grytpype-Thynne.
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Old 20th August 2018, 02:15 PM   #102
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God save the queen
The fascist regime
They made you a moron
A potential H bomb
God save the queen
She's not a human being
and There's no future
And England's dreaming
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Old 20th August 2018, 02:47 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
God save the queen
The fascist regime
They made you a moron
A potential H bomb
God save the queen
She's not a human being
and There's no future
And England's dreaming
She's lasted a bit longer than foul-mouthed Johnny Rotten.
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Old 20th August 2018, 03:17 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She's lasted a bit longer than foul-mouthed Johnny Rotten.
She's achieved rather less, though. Oh, and by "lasted a bit longer" you mean " was born before him, and they're both still alive". Whoopee do.
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Old 20th August 2018, 04:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
She's achieved rather less, though. Oh, and by "lasted a bit longer" you mean " was born before him, and they're both still alive". Whoopee do.

And Lydon is still actively working, writing, touring, and achieving far more than Liz ever seems to have done.
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Old 20th August 2018, 05:07 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
For some reason I thought Charles took himself out of the running years ago.
I did too.
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Old 20th August 2018, 05:33 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
She's achieved rather less, though. Oh, and by "lasted a bit longer" you mean " was born before him, and they're both still alive". Whoopee do.
Yeah, and yet it would have been a half decent dig using 'Sid Vicious' instead. Someone doesn't know their Sex Pistols perhaps..
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:10 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The Queen is consulted on legislation, she does have a role in government, it is just one our government tries to hide.

Why should I as a tax payer pay for her to go to the races?
I understand that it is even more expensive to run an office of President - and no tourism revenue to offset it.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Since in the UK Parliament is supreme we already have a head of state, the PM. We don't need to replace the monarchy with anything.
I doubt that handing all of the powers of a Monarch to the PM is a good idea. Unlike the Monarch, the PM would exercise those powers to the fullest extent with only the party able to stop him.

It was the idea of making the PM the most powerful person in the Australian government that killed off the Republican referendum in 1999.
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Old 21st August 2018, 08:33 AM   #109
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As I understand it, Prince Charles automatically becomes king of the UK and Australia and New Zealand and Canada on the death of the Queen. It's not a question of opinion. The trouble is Charles and Camilla are regarded as an eccentric couple. Not a great deal of people are interested in them, and they have very little confidence in them, though to give him credit he has done good work in the past with things like the Prince's Trust. I even agree with him about aspects of modern architecture, and about the decline of old country trades like dry stone walling.

There is an opinion about all this in a 2010 Daily Mail article by Max Hastings:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...-monarchy.html

Quote:
I heard one of the cleverest men in Britain, master of an Oxbridge *college, quite calmly say the other night: ‘The best hope for the *monarchy is that Prince Charles dies before the Queen.’

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Old 21st August 2018, 10:11 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She's lasted a bit longer than foul-mouthed Johnny Rotten.
Last seen advertising butter. Very punk.
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Old 21st August 2018, 10:19 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Last seen advertising butter. Very punk.
Don't the royals advertise products as well, via the royal warrant? Is there one for butter? If so we could compare sales figures and see whether the Windsors or the Sex Pistols are better at advertising.


Eta: 'Sorry, your Majesty, but sales of salted spreadable are down ten percent, I'm afraid we shall have to have a republic if the figures don't improve.'
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Old 21st August 2018, 01:00 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Don't the royals advertise products as well, via the royal warrant? Is there one for butter? If so we could compare sales figures and see whether the Windsors or the Sex Pistols are better at advertising.


Eta: 'Sorry, your Majesty, but sales of salted spreadable are down ten percent, I'm afraid we shall have to have a republic if the figures don't improve.'
Apologies in advance for the Mail link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eg-abroad.html

All sorts of ****, don't know about butter and can't be bothered to look.

Blah de blah

https://www.waitrose.com/home/inspir...originals.html

And snake oil.

"In 2008 Duchy Originals partnered with the alternative medicine company Nelsons to produce a line of herbal remedies. This led to controversy, in which leading UK scientists said that Duchy Originals promoted its herbal remedies with scientifically unsound claims. Edzard Ernst, the UK's first professor of complementary medicine, said Duchy Originals detox products were "outright quackery".[17] Subsequently the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency ruled that healing claims were misleading and required the company to amend an advertising campaign promoting two herbal medicines.[18]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitrose_Duchy_Organic
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Old 21st August 2018, 03:51 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
As I understand it, Prince Charles automatically becomes king of the UK and Australia and New Zealand and Canada on the death of the Queen. It's not a question of opinion. The trouble is Charles and Camilla are regarded as an eccentric couple. Not a great deal of people are interested in them, and they have very little confidence in them, though to give him credit he has done good work in the past with things like the Prince's Trust. I even agree with him about aspects of modern architecture, and about the decline of old country trades like dry stone walling.

There is an opinion about all this in a 2010 Daily Mail article by Max Hastings:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...-monarchy.html

You're correct. Charles is heir apparent. When QEII dies, he automatically, immediately and seamlessly becomes the monarch.

However....... Charles and his advisers are increasingly concerned about his role, and how it fits in to the image/popularity of the monarchy. He is already 70 - well beyond normal retirement age - and he has the whole "Camilla vs Diana" mess to work with as well (it's a very real and serious issue as to whether Camilla would actually become Queen - as protocol and precedent would normally dictate that she should - if Charles becomes King). And on top of that, his own son William is viewed as far more relevant, modern and glamorous (esp of course with Kate as his wife). In addition, there is very recent precedent in neighbouring European monarchies (Belgium and Netherlands) of an elderly monarch deliberately stepping aside in favour of younger blood.

As such, Charles and his people are constantly conducting private focus groups and market research to try to guage the public mood. It's a constantly shifting landscape, which only gets potentially more difficult for Charles as the Queen gets older and older herself. It's not inconceivable that Charles will be over 75 or even over 80 by the time the Queen dies. And (despite all his personal shortcomings and his personal ego/ambition), he feels a huge sense of duty to the institution of the monarchy. The thing he fears more than anything - even though he yearns to be King and sees it as his birthright - is if his ascension to the throne helps bring about some sort of republican backlash which culminates in the effective abolition of the monarchy.

I am aware of all this, by the way, because I know someone connected to the inside. And the current thinking is that if the Queen dies tomorrow, Charles will ascend to the throne - BUT he will very quickly announce that he intends to reign only for a defined maximum period (probably 10 years if QEII dies tomorrow, but increasingly less than that if she lives a number of futher years herself) before abdicating in favour of William. The thinking is that this will bolster Charles' (and Camilla's) reputation as a kindly, pragmatic monarch acting selflessly in the best interests of the nation. And in turn, such a move will both guarantee Charles' place in history as a reigning monarch of the UK and also will (the thinking goes) best place the monarchy against any potential threat from republican sentiment.

As so often though, we'll only know for sure when we see how events actually play out.........
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Old 21st August 2018, 04:00 PM   #114
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The Queen is consulted on legislation, she does have a role in government, it is just one our government tries to hide.

Why should I as a tax payer pay for her to go to the races?

Well...... yes, the Queen is consulted on legislation. And technically she has an absolute right of veto over all legislation. But since the Glorious Revolution in the 17th Century and other reforms since then, the monarch has in practice never held or weilded any executive power. It would only be if the monarch - and then only under advisement from the Privy Council - genuinely felt that any given action or law enacted by parliament was perilous to the very existence of the nation (and that the peril was greater as a result of the action or law than without it) that the monarch would have the right to veto.

On the second point, and much as I am ambivalent to the place of the monarchy in modern society, the Queen does not use civil list money to pay to go to the races. Her leisure activities (as well as her normal household functions) are exclusively funded from her private income. Now, we can have another debate about the source of the Queen's private income - chiefly her ownership of vast areas of the UK - but that's a separate (although admittedly related) issue.
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Old 21st August 2018, 04:04 PM   #115
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I understand that it is even more expensive to run an office of President - and no tourism revenue to offset it.

I suspect it is. But then the entire office of The President (of the US?) is funded from federal resources - the sitting president is not expected to fund any of it from private income (outside of re-election campaigning etc). On the other hand, only a fraction of the Queen's total expense bill is directly met by the public purse.



Quote:
I doubt that handing all of the powers of a Monarch to the PM is a good idea. Unlike the Monarch, the PM would exercise those powers to the fullest extent with only the party able to stop him.

It was the idea of making the PM the most powerful person in the Australian government that killed off the Republican referendum in 1999.

It's a terrible idea. At the risk of Godwinning the thread.........
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Old 21st August 2018, 04:05 PM   #116
TragicMonkey
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Perhaps Charles, realizing his elderliness and unpopularitiness, will upon ascending the throne simply regenerate and take on a new face, body, and personality. Odds are good whatever he ends up as will be a step up.
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Old 21st August 2018, 04:10 PM   #117
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Don't the royals advertise products as well, via the royal warrant? Is there one for butter? If so we could compare sales figures and see whether the Windsors or the Sex Pistols are better at advertising.


Eta: 'Sorry, your Majesty, but sales of salted spreadable are down ten percent, I'm afraid we shall have to have a republic if the figures don't improve.'


Well the Royal Warrant isn't the royals "advertising" products/services per se at all. Certainly the Royal Family receives no remuneration at all for issuing warrants - they don't even get free supplies of those products/services to which they issue the warrants (there's a strict rule in place these days forbidding that).

At best, what's happening is that the issuance of Royal Warrants is a form of unpaid endorsement. Undoubtedly those producers and retailers almost always see a big boost to their sales figures if they're awarded a warrant, and maintain a market share imbalance over their competitors if they maintain the warrant. But the Royal Family itself doesn't benefit.
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Old 30th August 2018, 07:54 AM   #118
Henri McPhee
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The late British politician Richard Crossman wrote in his autobiography that it must be difficult for the Queen to have to continually deal with a terrible lot of politicians. I don't mean to imply that democracy must be overthrown because public criticism of the FBI is considered dangerous.
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Old 30th August 2018, 08:27 AM   #119
fagin
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Huh?

A dead politician, Brenda, and the FBI?

I guess you see a connection, but....
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Old 30th August 2018, 08:40 AM   #120
Porpoise of Life
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Probably something to do with the plight of Rhodesia...
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