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Old 12th September 2018, 02:42 PM   #81
carlitos
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:06 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: ... but they're still fiction

at the moment they are being used as manual for government and even, as it seems, wholeheartedly embraced by the citizenry, they stop being fiction

Bruce Schneier in his informative, explanatory; but not so great book (when it comes to actual activism (he, among other things, was suggesting to "we the people" to snitch for the government ...)):

// __ Data and Goliath: The Hidden Battles to Collect Your Data and Control Your World

https://www.amazon.com/Data-Goliath-.../dp/039335217X

https://www.schneier.com/news/archiv...ru_bruce_.html
~
explained nicely how in current times governments have out1984ed 1984 itself on more than one important count
Nonsense and poppycock. A work of fiction is a work of fiction no matter what stupid people decide to take it literally. The work of fiction describes a world which did not exist when it was written and still does not exist, though there are some who would like to come close. I imagine Orwell would be surprised to see the operation of North Korea, for example. But notwithstanding that, he wrote a novel, a work of fiction, and no matter how hard some people try to embody it or to outdo it, the character of the work does not change.

Some of the ideas expressed in that work may cease to be fictitious, but that is not the responsibility of the work. 20000 Leagues Under the Sea was fiction, still is and always will be, even though submarines have come into existence and we can figuratively slap Jules Verne on the back for having imagined so well.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:24 PM   #83
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~
RE: A work of fiction is a work of fiction no matter what stupid people decide to take it literally.

Are you calling the government stupid people? Even if they use that "fiction" as manual for social control and manipulation? In that case I would say, they are not hat stupid. I would say they know human nature well and they know it to be eminently manipulable.

I think I understand well your point, but art is always partially the creation of the author and partially what people take/make from it. Jonathan Swift wrote Gulliver's Travels as political satire and now people read it as children story.
~
RE: even children (I can confirm as little as middle schoolers) are being used as perps in schools

BTW they not only use children and minors in schools for that kind of cr@p
~
RE: I imagine Orwell would be surprised to see the operation of North Korea, for example.

I would say he would be more surprised about other "examples" such as the ones Schneier talks about, or maybe not.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:49 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
~
RE: A work of fiction is a work of fiction no matter what stupid people decide to take it literally.

Are you calling the government stupid people? Even if they use that "fiction" as manual for social control and manipulation? In that case I would say, they are not hat stupid. I would say they know human nature well and they know it to be eminently manipulable.

I think I understand well your point, but art is always partially the creation of the author and partially what people take/make from it. Jonathan Swift wrote Gulliver's Travels as political satire and now people read it as children story.
~
RE: even children (I can confirm as little as middle schoolers) are being used as perps in schools

BTW they not only use children and minors in schools for that kind of cr@p
~
RE: I imagine Orwell would be surprised to see the operation of North Korea, for example.

I would say he would be more surprised about other "examples" such as the ones Schneier talks about, or maybe not.
~
If a government is actually using 1984 as a manual, yes, they're stupid even if on the surface they appear clever. Of course I doubt they really are either all that clever or actually doing as you allege. I think it's far more likely that the parallel is being observed by others.

I suppose it should come as some comfort that at least our president will not get too many new ideas from Orwell because he doesn't read.

I am willing to bet that the Children's version of Gulliver's travels is heavily abridged. Actually we need not bet. I was just reading this very thing in a book by Margaret Atwood. It is. The full Gulliver is not only beyond children in places, but rather raunchy at times.
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Old 13th September 2018, 01:43 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post

Moreover, I will make very public any communications that transpire from your good citizen actions including who you are and the content of your email, which as part of the indictment I must have legal access to. I did suggest to you to actually accuse me of slander yourself. Schools are so very busy places. Most probably, they won’t pay any attention to it. I mean any open and explicit follow up. Of course, things may and -will- "happen" to you when you protest bs.
Oh, don't be so silly. This is not an 'indictment', nor is it any kind of legal process.
Furthermore, it is strange and ironic that someone like you, who is railing against police states, is quite happy to deny me my right to privacy, and is demanding the right to view my private correspondence.
With regard to the last sentence of this, I do hope that wasn't a threat. Not only is that against the terms of the membership agreement of this forum, it is also just wrong. I have been one of the more sympathetic of your interlocutors, and in return you have accused me of supporting child abuse ( a claim you have yet to either substantiate or withdraw) and now appear to be threatening me with some kind of legal action and other, unspecified 'things which will happen to me' as well.
Take a deep breath, and dial down the hostile ranting. You will feel much better for it.

Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
Again, I TOTALLY STAND BY MY CLAIM! I would love to see what comes out of this "ministry of truth" kind of develpment.
You invited a check on your story. Don't be surprised if someone takes you up on it. I think that your accusations against this school, on a public forum, should be checked, for the sake of the reputation of that school and its staff.

Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
~
I am still waiting for you to finish your little Math problem and I think you are able to finish it yourself, especially after I helped you towards finishing it greatly. What happened?
Not only do I not know what this is, I do not care either. I have no intention of jumping through your ridiculous and irrelevant hoops.
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Old 13th September 2018, 02:41 AM   #86
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RE: Of course I doubt they really are either all that clever or actually doing as you allege.

It is not just me "alleging" that governments have out1984ed 1984 itself. Bruce Schneier, a world renowned computer security expert, and Tim Berners-Lee, "creator of the WWW", were, as they put it, "shocked" when they learned about Snowden revelations and have become critics of what they consider to be abuses and excesses by the government totally breaching social contracts.

I wondered what they were so "shocked" about, because as part of US academia they constantly get government contracts and serve as consultants. Pre-Snowden, I was once amused to laughters when I saw Linus Torvalds publicly saying he doesn't effing ever connect his own computers to the Internet (putting all kinds of faces), but even though he didn't seem to be "shocked", he, someone well known for his lack of political correctness, didn't say a word about it, which to me was a bit disappointing.

If you go one by one listing all "dystopian" engineering and social technologies mentioned by Orwell (such as "telescreens" and "the ministry of truth", or "minitruth" as he put it ;-)), you will see that they have indeed out1984ed 1984 itself. Just 50 years after Orwell's "fiction" pretty much every single human being happily pays for even more than one cell phone which are way more invasive. They not only keep the government updated real time about all they do and how they do it, but, based on their sensors, cell phones are the perfect prisoner bracelet. They can also ongoingly and predictively check if what we did was indeed what we said we would. In addition to being an ideal prisoner bracelet, cell phones also are also perfect for silly protagonism, so people are easily entertained the illusion that freedom is about taking selfies, gossiping their heads off, not having to keep a mental map of an area, not having to think about where you are driving ...; people get upset about "having to think" (to the point of seeing it as downright abuse), having to read something that doesn't fit on their cell phone screens ... which also greatly helps with social control, keeping everyone "on a short leash".

I would say, in the same way that art is partially what people make of it, that has been going on for apparently so long that to people this is their "new normal". Chomsky has repeatedly pointed out that just 30 years ago, the idea that the government was spying on people in the way they do nowadays and that people, as Schneier puts it, "naturally" acquiesce to it, would have been quite scandalous.

By the way, when I talk about the government, I am not talking about Trump, Obama and those kinds of clowns, but police. They are the ones in charge. And yes, reading doesn't seem to be that determinant so I would not take against Trump that, as you allege, he doesn't read. What I would see as more relevant is that Obama sat his black ass in all those fancy and expensive law school for 12 years studying constitutional law to then thoroughly wipe his ass with it.
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Old 13th September 2018, 04:09 AM   #87
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RE: Oh, don't be so silly. This is not an 'indictment', nor is it any kind of legal process.

I am actually inviting you, good citizen, to go all the way for an indictment, formally accusing me of slander, because I very much doubt that school would give half a **** about your half-assed good citizen action. Again, schools are very busy and entropic places to invite half-assed nonsense into them and I very much doubt they would invite attention into such matters.

However, once again, I TOTALLY STAND BY MY CLAIM! and I think telling minors about "sexuality" in the way they are is very abusive. I think I have very explicitly explained my point. I have seen those huge posters even in primary schools in the U.S. and, again, what actually amazes me is that parents haven’t revolted against it. I am fine with being the lone wolf howling about that issue if it comes to that. I think it is wrong, very wrong.

// __ 6-Year-Old Explains How Messed Up It Is That Her Entire Life Has Been Put On Facebook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziltBdyFxDo
~
Now, before you start asking me if I realize theOnion is a satirical media venue, as one of the posters said: "When the Onion starts making better points than CNN and MSNBC ..."
~
RE: Furthermore, it is strange and ironic that someone like you, who is railing against police states, is quite happy to deny me my right to privacy, and is demanding the right to view my private correspondence.

"my right to privacy", did you just say? What is "privacy" to begin with if not a silly illusion? Why would I care about "your right to 'privacy'" if I don't even 'care' about you? I could even explain to you in much better ways that "privacy" is a silly illusion, a very silly one I would say. I myself outted one of those NSA ********, as a way to let people know that they were being taken for a ride by comments from trolls most probably NSA ones:

https://theintercept.com/2015/08/11/...nts=1#comments

Do you know how easy it is for anyone with some healthy neurons and some computer skills to find out who is the agent behind some avatar and user id? But, good citizen, I don't really care about you and contrary to what you may think, I am a decent dog. I never go ad hominem on people. Again, I would love for you to have the spine to do as you said and see what comes of it. Let's make, keep it real. Please, go on with your good citizen actions I helped you greatly towards it. I don't give half an insipid **** about you per se.
~
RE: With regard to the last sentence of this, I do hope that wasn't a threat.

Are you also accusing me of threatening you? How exactly? You yourself said you would contact the school and I did encourage you to do so, even helping you towards doing so. To me that is all that has happened here.
~
RE: Not only is that against the terms of the membership agreement of this forum, it is also just wrong.

RE: I have been one of the more sympathetic of your interlocutors ...

RE: now appear to be threatening me with some kind of legal action and other, unspecified 'things which will happen to me' as well.

You are being silly and, as it seems, now you are even afraid. I can't figure out about what, of whom. I don't think I have ever threatened anyone here in any way, nor do I even care about your/si users constant self-ridiculing comments towards me. Again, I don’t see the point in protagonism, so I can’t see the point in going ad hominem on people.

You (collectively) are constantly telling me I am an idiot, I don't speak English well, I am some Cuban born "negrito" (so what do I know), I need mental help, squizo, I should stop "suffering in silence", ... please, at least be consistent. As they say, consistency is more important than making sense.
~
RE: ... you have accused me of supporting child abuse ( a claim you have yet to either substantiate or withdraw)

When have I accused you or anyone here of anything? I just showed to you a reference to the very FBI operative manual in which they themselves consider to be "legal", OK to use minors for their bs.
~
RE: You invited a check on your story. Don't be surprised if someone takes you up on it. I think that your accusations against this school, on a public forum, should be checked, for the sake of the reputation of that school and its staff.

And I still do so! And I do agree totally with you about checks of the reputation of that school and its staff! I was just relating my personal experience in that school because I happened to work there.
~
RE: I am still waiting for you to finish your little Math problem . . .
RE: Not only do I not know what this is, I do not care either. I have no intention of jumping through your ridiculous and irrelevant hoops.

I would not think to be "ridiculous and irrelevant hoops" that USG has greatly surpassed the genocial ratio of Nazi Germany during WWII and that none of the "freedom of speech" media in the U.S., not even the supposedly progressive media venues, touch those kinds of issues with a 10 feet pole.
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Old 13th September 2018, 04:28 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
fagin, let me try this. rlopez2:

USE THE BLOODY QUOTE BUTTON!!
We can all live in hope.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:14 AM   #89
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I think this focus on "school children" as "perps and snitches" might be related to a case of "can you show us on the doll where you were touched?"
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:34 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by CptColumbo View Post
Sorry, but I've been away a while and I have no experience with this person. Are they unfamiliar with English and using google translate?
Yes. Or he is a Troll of mammoth proportions.
And every thread he starts is like this one. Every.Single.One.
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:45 AM   #91
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RE: If you go one by one listing all "dystopian" engineering and social technologies mentioned by Orwell ...

for example, the idea of instituting not only secret laws, administered by secret judges in secret courts, … but -interpretations- of those secret laws "illegal", would be way over what Orwell could have thought of. In fact, if you think of it, he would have scathingly exploited such ideas to mercilessly poke fun at them/people.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:02 AM   #92
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"1984" was about Stalinism.

Orwell wrote it while he was confined to a tuberculosis sanitarium, and based many of the details on his experiences as a patient in a hospital where one was mostly treated as cattle.

Many of the things Orwell wrote about in 1984 were already happening in the Soviet Union. Context is everything.
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:40 PM   #93
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If anyone from whatever goverment is stupid enough to use "1984" as a manual, why not add "Das Kapital" to it aswell (if someone wants to go full moron, might aswell do it the right way if you ask me...).

Originally Posted by fagin View Post
We can all live in hope.
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:52 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
"1984" was about Stalinism.

Orwell wrote it while he was confined to a tuberculosis sanitarium, and based many of the details on his experiences as a patient in a hospital where one was mostly treated as cattle.

Many of the things Orwell wrote about in 1984 were already happening in the Soviet Union. Context is everything.
A bit off the subject here, but while I'm sure much of that is true, I have read elsewhere that some of the idea of 1984 was a "reductio ad absurdum" not of the Soviet State but of 1948 Britain and its inability to get beyond war measures and the war mentality. Of course, since it really is a work of FICTION, it can be both things at once, can't it?
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Old 13th September 2018, 04:04 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
A bit off the subject here, but while I'm sure much of that is true, I have read elsewhere that some of the idea of 1984 was a "reductio ad absurdum" not of the Soviet State but of 1948 Britain and its inability to get beyond war measures and the war mentality. Of course, since it really is a work of FICTION, it can be both things at once, can't it?
You're correct about the post-war Britain playing into his theme.

The problem with people like rlopez is that they can't get beyond the book to read Gulag Archipelago, or The Killing Fields. Both are more chilling because they share the same premise as 1984 while also being non-fiction.
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Old 13th September 2018, 04:54 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I think this focus on "school children" as "perps and snitches" might be related to a case of "can you show us on the doll where you were touched?"
yep
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:21 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
~
RE: ... you have accused me of supporting child abuse ( a claim you have yet to either substantiate or withdraw)

When have I accused you or anyone here of anything?
Right here. Either back this up or withdraw it. Your scattergun hostility is becoming rather tiresome.

Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post

So, now you are quick to assume that I am making **** up, but would quietly admit without questioning such practices on a moral ground. So, it is OK for USG to abuse children by using them as perps and snitches? Amazing!

People living just blocks away from concentration camps in Nazi Germany did not know that that was going on in these camps, nor could they believe it when they saw it with their own eyes:
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:01 AM   #98
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RE: Right here. Either back this up or withdraw it.

I always talk about a certain matter or topic, never ad hominem, but you are giving me enough reasons to start taking your nonsense "seriously". I, once again, don’t even understand you. What I want to know is what is going to happen if I don't "withdraw it", which by the way I won't. All your kind of nonsense is half-assed. Why do you put so much effort at self ridiculing?

I do believe in that thing about "choosing your battles". Again, do you have an idea how easy it is to expose your ass from behind your avatar, user id and silly comments?
~
RE: Your scattergun hostility is becoming rather tiresome.

I thought as a good citizen you are, you would have the spine to actually go all the way defending your cause. Some may take what you did as snitching since you are acting from behind the very illusive shadows of an avatar and user id. When you believe in something, you should act, defend it in the open, no? Oh, well!

I am very much willing to stand my ground on those issues relating to abusing minors with sexual "education" nonsense. I very much doubt anything will happen after your half-assed good citizen efforts. Now, good citizen is demanding from me to "withdraw it", whatever that could possibly mean conversationally as a suggestion or command.

You are the own who started your half-assed nonsense. As they say in the Bronx: "you do your thing and I do my thing"
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:37 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: Right here. Either back this up or withdraw it.

I always talk about a certain matter or topic, never ad hominem, but you are giving me enough reasons to start taking your nonsense "seriously". I, once again, don’t even understand you. What I want to know is what is going to happen if I don't "withdraw it", which by the way I won't. All your kind of nonsense is half-assed. Why do you put so much effort at self ridiculing?

I do believe in that thing about "choosing your battles". Again, do you have an idea how easy it is to expose your ass from behind your avatar, user id and silly comments?
~
RE: Your scattergun hostility is becoming rather tiresome.

I thought as a good citizen you are, you would have the spine to actually go all the way defending your cause. Some may take what you did as snitching since you are acting from behind the very illusive shadows of an avatar and user id. When you believe in something, you should act, defend it in the open, no? Oh, well!

I am very much willing to stand my ground on those issues relating to abusing minors with sexual "education" nonsense. I very much doubt anything will happen after your half-assed good citizen efforts. Now, good citizen is demanding from me to "withdraw it", whatever that could possibly mean conversationally as a suggestion or command.

You are the own who started your half-assed nonsense. As they say in the Bronx: "you do your thing and I do my thing"
There are certain types of interactions that leave a bad taste in my mouth.

This is one of them.

To expect a baseline of common human decency would not appear to be asking too much, but in this case, apparently, it is.
I understand that there are reasons why rlopez2 acts in this way, but I still find it unpleasant and distasteful. I entered into this conversation against my better judgement, not wishing to exacerbate things, but, since my fears have been realised, I'm having nothing further to do with this.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:41 AM   #100
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You're dealing with someone that is literally not in their right mind. Let it go.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:56 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
There are certain types of interactions that leave a bad taste in my mouth.

This is one of them.

To expect a baseline of common human decency would not appear to be asking too much, but in this case, apparently, it is.
I understand that there are reasons why rlopez2 acts in this way, but I still find it unpleasant and distasteful. I entered into this conversation against my better judgement, not wishing to exacerbate things, but, since my fears have been realised, I'm having nothing further to do with this.
I did some investigoogling.

My advice? Walk away. Fast.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:34 AM   #102
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RE: In addition to being an ideal prisoner bracelet, cell phones also are also perfect for silly protagonism ...

As an individual who refuses to own, use a cell phone, TV sets, facebook, ... (for many reasons other than being "paranoid"), I constantly notice as part of my work as a teacher how every body's mind is becoming more and more ephemeral. Everything has to happen at the speed of a click. Most people nowadays live with no depth or structure in their minds whatsoever. You see it everywhere from pop culture to University students.

// __ Pop Star's Single, 'Booty Wave', Most Likely Civilization's Downfall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmCjJ0VBjjU
~
Now, that "Booty Wave" is kind of sophisticated for today's standards. Most songs, as you demand for me to write here, just repeat two to three words from start to end. I have absolutely nothing against "booty waves" and "two-to-three-words" songs, the problem is when this is pretty much all we have. When It becomes the new normal.

These kinds of experiments they do with corvids which are only 3 months old, without any kind of teaching, training:

// __ Smartest Bird (the intelligent raven solves the puzzle)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYBATyILJD8
~
Now the common raven lives from 10 to 15 years. Could you imagine a 20 month old child doing such a thing on its own without previous teaching?
~
RE: "1984" was about Stalinism.
RE: Orwell wrote it while he was confined to a tuberculosis sanitarium, and based many of the details on his experiences as a patient in a hospital where one was mostly treated as cattle.

I don't even know how to start parsing the, as I see them, for the most part, factually and persuasively wrong ideas in these comments.

First, we don't need to go into "mind reading" and pretending to "contextualize" his actions in ways that "help our understanding" (whatever bs we want to believe). Orwell himself was a very honest person. Before becoming a world star he expressed in writing how odd he felt about treating Indian people as subjects from his position as an officer of "her Majesty". He was asked many times what 1984 was about and he himself explained his mind in writing.

// __ George Orwell’s Letter On Why He Wrote ‘1984’

https://www.thedailybeast.com/george...-he-wrote-1984
~
About "Stalinism", seemingly nice and true gringo media darling Carl Sagan has been one of the intellectuals entertaining those "1984 is about Stalinism" memes:

https://www.millennialstar.org/1984-...#comment-32055
~
Not only Orwell, but Europe at large, especially "intellectual" people had a friendly attitude towards "communism", since they very well knew it was the Red Army who saved them from the Third Reich.

You would also hear here in the U.S. preposterous statements like "Russian people fought Nazism because Stalin bullied them”. People who actually fought, lived through WWII find those ideas so out of it all, that they can’t even understand how could people now say such things. The best reaction I have heard about those kinds of ideas from a Red Army soldier himself was: "People who would say such things have no clue about what was like having a bunch of Nazi snipers hiding a shot away from you. The last thing we were thinking about was Stalin. Had we been thinking about him, we would have had lost the war."

People in Europe (both regular folks and military strategists) had no hope whatsoever about the Red Army being able to stop Nazism after they had been preparing for their most important move for years: attacking and occupying Russia. The British knew, were getting ready for the Nazis to come for them after they were quickly done with Russia. Every body in Europe was astound (they could not even understand the news), when they heard that the Red Army at great lost had actually stopped the Nazi invasion and out-maneuvered them. People in those times started to notice that things were not "running as scheduled" when they noticed the Nazis changing their language and tone for the very first time.

Politicians are just master manipulators, but they develop a fine 6th sense when it comes to speaking to the consciousness of their Zeitgeist. From, kind of talking like gringos, having mad man funny mustache guy relate his ideas about "heavenly orders":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUPrjzRaj8c&t=1m28s

"... nicht der Staat hat uns geschaffen, sondern wir schaffen uns unseren Staat"

https://www.tekki.ch/texte/tdw/node13.html
~
to a quite intelligent, true-to-matters speech even poking fun at the British and gringos:

// __ Adolf Hitler - Stalingrad speech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FjYCUNiLcQ
~
No one could understand what was going on. To put it somehow and I know the metaphor is quite a bit forceful on a number of counts, imagine Trump all of a sudden talking in a quite, decent and proper manner ;-)

The Red Army for the very first time made Hitler pronounce a quite and modest, still joking statement: [b]"Wissen sie, wir sind bescheiden!"[\b] Well, actually his huge military apparatus was rendered ineffective by those "Untermeschen" he thought he could quickly get done with.

// __ Adolf Hitler - Speech about Stalingrad in Colour

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg9ftcNwm8A&t=14s
~
https://www.fliegende-wahrheit.com/2...enbraeukeller/

Dort schneidet man nämlich 30 Millionen Tonnen Verkehr ab, darunter fast Neun Millionen Tonnen Ölverkehr. Dort fließt der ganze Weizen zusammen aus diesen gewaltigen Gebieten der Ukraine, des Kuban-Gebietes um nach dem Norden transportiert zu werden. Dort ist das Manganerz befördert worden; dort war ein gigantischer Umschlagplatz. Den wollte ich nehmen, und – wissen Sie – wir sind bescheiden, wir haben ihn nämlich! Es sind nur ein paar ganz kleine Plätzchen noch da. Nun sagen die anderen: „Warum kämpfen sie dann nicht?" Weil ich kein zweites Verdunmachen will, sondern weil ich es lieber mit ganz kleinen Stoßtrupps mache. Die Zeit spielt dabei gar keine Rolle.
~
RE: If anyone from whatever goverment is stupid enough to use "1984" as a manual, why not add "Das Kapital" to it ...

Actually, "Das Kapital" is another good example of what we were discussing about a piece of intellectual work being partially what people make of it. When Marx noticed in his life time how his own work was being interpreted and used, he himself adamantly pointed out that he wasn't a Marxist.

"Das Kapital" is not a work of philosophy in its own right, but more like a fine mix of history, political economy and semiotics. I used at times examples of that book to make my people see that the Cuban government was treating them worst than Pharaohs treated slaves in Egypt. The rations of food secured by the state in those times were larger and better than Cuban people got from their ration cards. Of course, Cuban people don't entirely live off of their rations, but that gave them reasons to see das Kapital under a different light.
~
RE: The problem with people like rlopez is that they can't get beyond the book to read Gulag Archipelago, or The Killing Fields. Both are more chilling because they share the same premise as 1984 while also being non-fiction.

Actually, I haven't read "The Killing Fields", but is has been well researched that when it comes to numbers Solzhenitsyn greatly exaggerated his accounts.
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:48 AM   #103
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RE: To expect a baseline of common human decency ...

OK, you started on your own your good citizen actions even promising to publicly post whatever followed up from your efforts, which I very much encouraged even helping you with very specific information!

As a way to support your good citizen actions and to let everybody know the other side of the story so they, as close as possible, have the whole picture, I also promised to make very public everything that transpired from the good citizen developments that you had started.

Now you are talking about "common human decency"?

To me, you defend "common human decency" by acting against abuse to minors and/or against people spreading lies, creating confusion about such matters. What is the problem?
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:57 AM   #104
rlopez2
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I meant to write: "UntermeNschen"
Many of those typos happen when you are typing fast
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:32 AM   #105
BStrong
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
I meant to write: "UntermeNschen"
Many of those typos happen when you are typing fast
Your posts may make some sort of sense to you, but you're a majority of one - if you can't effectively communicate your ideas, readers will not take you or your ideas seriously.

No discussion can take place between parties if they can't understand each other.
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:28 AM   #106
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I don't know who taught the OP Englush, but if he paid for the lessons he needs to get a refund.
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:35 AM   #107
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Am I the only one getting a headache from that word-salad in post 102?
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:58 AM   #108
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so, still no proof of a police state I see
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Old 14th September 2018, 11:30 AM   #109
dudalb
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Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
Am I the only one getting a headache from that word-salad in post 102?
Hell, no.
And every thread the OP starts has some headache inducing word salad posts in it...
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Old 14th September 2018, 12:41 PM   #110
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RE: The problem with people like rlopez is that they can't get beyond the book to read Gulag Archipelago ...
RE: Solzhenitsyn greatly exaggerated his accounts

I know this may not exactly be what you have learned in school. Let me post verbatim a comment that pretty much explains it all:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ge...n-Solzhenitsyn

Vladislav Antonov, Former Military Officer/revolutionary/immigrant
Answered May 23 2017

I am going to open the can on worms right now. It depends on whom you ask. If you will ask liberal Russian he would answer that he is freedom fighter, he was prisoner of Stalin system, person that “revealed truth” about “communist crimes” etc.

His famous book “The Gulag Archipelago” is full of inaccuracies, absolutely fantastic numbers which he got from “words of other prisoners”.

Unfortunately, many American historians, during Cold War, refereed to his book as historical source. Many people took information there as given, despite facts falsifications and information manipulation. For example, Solzhenitsyn mentions that USSR has murdered more than 55 million people in labor camps . Another part of the book mentions that more than 100 million people were in camps.

[SNIP]
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 4

~
but things get even more interesting when you take into account other aspects relating to the gulags. I remember once I heard that congress could not pass laws regarding retirement age in the U.S., because that would mean that, statistically speaking, black people/minorities in the U.S. would retire into death.

The health indexes in the U.S. are/have always been higher than in Russia:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...-States/Health

but such a difference among people (black/minorities in the U.S.) and “the control group”, you don’t see in Russia, not even among those that were in the gulags. Even though things seem to be "improving", but, unfortunately, in not so smart ways:

// __ Life expectancy improves for blacks, and the racial gap is closing,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ap-is-closing/

The report does not address to what extent the change was affected by eroding health and rising death rates among midlife white Americans, much of which has been attributed to “diseases of despair” such as drug overdoses, suicide and alcohol-related liver diseases.
~
When you point out the very high incarceration rate in the U.S to gringos, they would tell you:

“Oh, those are mostly Black and Latino from ‘high crime area’ most individuals included in such figures come from a few zip codes …” and they say that as if it made sense. To me the fact that such a crass difference exists actually speaks against the moral health of a people.

Last edited by kmortis; 17th September 2018 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:33 PM   #111
BStrong
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: The problem with people like rlopez is that they can't get beyond the book to read Gulag Archipelago ...
RE: Solzhenitsyn greatly exaggerated his accounts

I know this may not exactly be what you have learned in school. Let me post verbatim a comment that pretty much explains it all:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ge...n-Solzhenitsyn

Vladislav Antonov, Former Military Officer/revolutionary/immigrant
Answered May 23 2017

I am going to open the can on worms right now. It depends on whom you ask. If you will ask liberal Russian he would answer that he is freedom fighter, he was prisoner of Stalin system, person that “revealed truth” about “communist crimes” etc.

His famous book “The Gulag Archipelago” is full of inaccuracies, absolutely fantastic numbers which he got from “words of other prisoners”.

Unfortunately, many American historians, during Cold War, refereed to his book as historical source. Many people took information there as given, despite facts falsifications and information manipulation. For example, Solzhenitsyn mentions that USSR has murdered more than 55 million people in labor camps . Another part of the book mentions that more than 100 million people were in camps.

[SNIP]
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 4

~
but things get even more interesting when you take into account other aspects relating to the gulags. I remember once I heard that congress could not pass laws regarding retirement age in the U.S., because that would mean that, statistically speaking, black people/minorities in the U.S. would retire into death.

The health indexes in the U.S. are/have always been higher than in Russia:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...-States/Health

but such a difference among people (black/minorities in the U.S.) and “the control group”, you don’t see in Russia, not even among those that were in the gulags. Even though things seem to be "improving", but, unfortunately, in not so smart ways:

// __ Life expectancy improves for blacks, and the racial gap is closing,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ap-is-closing/

The report does not address to what extent the change was affected by eroding health and rising death rates among midlife white Americans, much of which has been attributed to “diseases of despair” such as drug overdoses, suicide and alcohol-related liver diseases.
~
When you point out the very high incarceration rate in the U.S to gringos, they would tell you:

“Oh, those are mostly Black and Latino from ‘high crime area’ most individuals included in such figures come from a few zip codes …” and they say that as if it made sense. To me the fact that such a crass difference exists actually speaks against the moral health of a people.
What part of the above message are your words, and what are you quoting and why should anyone take your word that what you are quoting has veracity?
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Last edited by kmortis; 17th September 2018 at 08:35 AM. Reason: removed previously moderated content
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Old 14th September 2018, 02:39 PM   #112
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RE: What part of the above message are your words ...

Vladislav Antonov's words which, again, I copied verbatim from the quora link to his comment/answer, run to when/where he says: "Hope this helps."

Then I separate "my words" with a squiggle (ASCII 126) which Mathematicians use as logical operator to represent the complement of a set.
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:50 PM   #113
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I don't quite agree with some of Vladislav's side opinions:

* You might say: “well, Americans are in prisons not for political reasons!” - And that would be correct.

* You even can’t believe how misinformed is Western society over the true situation which was in USSR during 1930–1950. And it is not done on purpose. The problem is in language.
~
When I hear people say that there is no political persecution in the U.S. I have to laugh. "The problem" with Russian, East German and Cuban repression is that they do it in the open.

In the U.S. they care about not doing their repression in the open, because (this may make some people go LOL) "in the U.S. there are laws protecting citizen's rights". For example, I have been trying to explain to people with hard facts that comparing the degree of control that the stasi had over the individual in East Germany with current day USA is an odd joke. I don't get a knock on the door from the police in the US with a summon to go to the police department and explain to them what I mean (as would and did happen to me in East Germany and Cuba) and there are no laws like the ones they have in Cuba to accuse people of "disturbing peace on earth" ;-) (they mean you are a dissident complaining, reporting some abuse or corruption). What they do in the U.S. is blackhole the batch of books that I bought about the stasi and, as part of the Zersetzung techniques they learned from the stasi, they harass you at every corner. Lately, among many other things, they have been messing with the lock of my apartment door to the point that you cannot push the key in and that will be very expensive for me ...

For you to have a better idea. We have been talking about abuse to children. Here is the Cuban government openly using children as part of their political harassment to dissidents.

// __ Represion a Estado de SATS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IP4zPRKZPo
~
Most probably, it will be hard for you to understand what is going on there. Cuban people include music and dancing in everything, even in their repression. The Cuban police is very openly and under camera harassing a few dissidents who were all family and friends.

They train police in Cuba on "how to 'handle' the enemy" and you may even notice how the police was even saying to their own, the guy with a camera, not to do that when he was throwing most probably unsuccessful quicks to his legs. As I remember it now, and that may make you laugh, that stupid show was staged because Antonio Rodiles (white shirt) was complaining because the Cuban police had put cameras around his house.

Here is another "interesting" incident:
~
// __ Testimonio de Antonio Rodiles tras brutal golpiza y arresto del 5 de julio 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=305XilibeFA
~
after forcefully arresting him and punching his face after handcuffing him, following their own regulations, they themselves brought him to the hospital where he was provided with a full medical report detailing the extent of the abuse ...

Here is another case of the many doing the rounds on the Internet:

// __ PELEA POLICIA VS BORRACHO EN CUBA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T0lpDJ9p5Q
~
Notice two things:

* bystanders don’t walk or look away, but kept telling the police to just leave him along that he was obviously drunk ... Here in NYC when the NYPD is harassing someone or simply raises a homeless person (during the Giuliani era) and dumps him/her on a truck as if they were pigs, people go and look away: "it is none of their business"

* people helping the police handcuff the drunk guy were keeping force to a minimum

* the drunkard himself is telling the police "you hit me (for no reason)" and the police office repeatedly reacts like: "No, I didn’t" ...

these kinds of incidents you would constantly encounter on any corner in Havana. Is this why there is repression in Cuba and not in the U.S.? At times I have thought of that kind of repression to be more honest on a number of important counts. If you openly abuse children for political repression their parents will know about it.
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:05 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: What part of the above message are your words ...

Vladislav Antonov's words which, again, I copied verbatim from the quora link to his comment/answer, run to when/where he says: "Hope this helps."

Then I separate "my words" with a squiggle (ASCII 126) which Mathematicians use as logical operator to represent the complement of a set.
Excellent description of your word salad.

But, this is a forum that uses words. So why do you seem to think that, firstly, you are a Mathematician (sic), and secondly, that anyone gives a stuff about your affectations?

Are your levels of insecurity really that high that you need to pretend to be special?
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:25 PM   #115
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RE: . . . fagin . . .

I just hope you are making some money out of it and, no, I don't think you will significantly advance your career with me. You obviously don't seem to have anything better to do other than repeating yourself and realizing your artistic geniality by including colors in your fonts and making them bigger. Don't get discouraged. Keep trying you may get me to at least use the whatever button. At some point you may get a better sense of what I mean, how I think about people like you. If you can.
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Old 14th September 2018, 05:58 PM   #116
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RE rlopez2.

Why do you think you're an interesting person?
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Old 14th September 2018, 06:14 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by rlopez2 View Post
RE: What part of the above message are your words ...

Vladislav Antonov's words which, again, I copied verbatim from the quora link to his comment/answer, run to when/where he says: "Hope this helps."

Then I separate "my words" with a squiggle (ASCII 126) which Mathematicians use as logical operator to represent the complement of a set.
Aside from the Quote function for reply, there is also a quote function for quotations within a post which are not replies. It looks like a little cartoon bubble with text in it. It makes things much easier to read.

If you are not just babbling away for your own amusement and actually want people to read what you write and to respond in meaningful ways, you should learn to format your posts. It is, whether you like it or not and whether you fall into that category or not, an unfortunate habit of crackpots, self-aggrandizing nuts, and ranting conspiracy theorists, to be unable to format posts or to write coherently. If you want to distinguish yourself from folks of that sort, it would behoove you to learn how to write an intelligible post.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:53 PM   #118
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RE rlopez2.
RE Why do you think you're an interesting person?

Hey, mind reader! I think I could answer your question if you tell me first what makes you think that I think I am an interesting person or let me make it a bit easier for you and a bit more amusing for me. What/who is an "interesting person" for you? The best of ad-hominem **** are "projections".
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:56 PM   #119
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Another planet...
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Old 14th September 2018, 08:13 PM   #120
rlopez2
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RE: Aside from the Quote function ...

OK, do this:

1) download debian live:

https://www.debian.org/CD/live/

which will not do any harm at all to your computer at all since it runs from the DVD caddy, so it doesn't need to be installed (also a safe way not to get your computer infected with virus, ...)

2) open konqueror

3) under settings disable javascript, java, images, flash, … all that crap.

then go is. This is how I see "reality". I can’t understand at all why do you make such a big deal about something that is merely a visual thing. To the point of starting to call me a sociopath, neo-Nazi, child molester, retarded, ...

As a teacher I am well aware and experience on a daily basis how people understand and learn things in their own/different ways and I don’t mind it all. In fact, I encourage it. I don’t expect social interactions to be nicely streamlined or as Charlie Parker used to say to "white" folks when they were playing jazz: "stop thinking of your sister’s/brother’s pussy/dick".
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