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Old 17th August 2018, 06:15 AM   #41
zooterkin
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Given that the video is from Indonesia, I would guess it’s some form of Silat (though it’s nothing like the version I studied briefly many years ago). It is (what’s shown in the video, not Silat in general), of course, nonsense; whether participants are deliberately putting on a show, or are deluding themselves I have no idea.

Aikido is (or was) used by the Tokyo riot police, though the form used is a lot harder than that taught in most dojos. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas
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Old 17th August 2018, 03:44 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I study European sword arts. Does that mean that I expect to use those arts in a life-or-death situation? No.
How often are you walking around with your weapon?

Also, you probably don't end up in many fights in the first place. Very few people do.

I think if this like I think of CPR. It's a nice skill to have, but the number of times I've had to employ it makes me question why I've bothered to learn it in the first place. Of course, CPR could become useful some day, Aikido? Not so much.
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Old 17th August 2018, 04:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
How often are you walking around with your weapon?

Also, you probably don't end up in many fights in the first place. Very few people do.

I think if this like I think of CPR. It's a nice skill to have, but the number of times I've had to employ it makes me question why I've bothered to learn it in the first place. Of course, CPR could become useful some day, Aikido? Not so much.
The same could be said of golf, basketball, or any other healthy hobby.

Critics of Aikido: how much actual knowledge do you have about it? Is it just YouTube videos or have you put in some time on the mat? Just curious how this criticism is founded
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Old 17th August 2018, 04:31 PM   #44
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I was doing Aikido for over 10 years, and I met many teachers .. one extreme is taking it as mind discipline, another is using as extension to more physical styles, and only using 'what would work on the street'. And everything in between.
If you look at Ueshiba, he was well experienced in practical stuff before Aikido. But he didn't want another budo, and much less practical jutsu. His Aikido was very spiritual. Training were started with Shinto chanting. I like the idea he didn't wanted to teach budo at all, that his ideas were philosophical and religious. But he was martial artist, so he choose this method, instead for example writing a book.
Also Aikido is quite liberal in what it is and how it should be taught . Even among direct students there are big differences, and if you look at teachers in Europe, it's simply a mess. So it's really hard to say anything about Aikido. What Aikido are you talking about ?
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Old 17th August 2018, 05:17 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I was doing Aikido for over 10 years, and I met many teachers .. one extreme is taking it as mind discipline, another is using as extension to more physical styles, and only using 'what would work on the street'. And everything in between.
If you look at Ueshiba, he was well experienced in practical stuff before Aikido. But he didn't want another budo, and much less practical jutsu. His Aikido was very spiritual. Training were started with Shinto chanting. I like the idea he didn't wanted to teach budo at all, that his ideas were philosophical and religious. But he was martial artist, so he choose this method, instead for example writing a book.
Also Aikido is quite liberal in what it is and how it should be taught . Even among direct students there are big differences, and if you look at teachers in Europe, it's simply a mess. So it's really hard to say anything about Aikido. What Aikido are you talking about ?
That's why I am asking about these sweeping dismissals from others. My school was technically Hombu, but like a lot of American schools, we were modifying the traditional approach to a rougher style. At a seminar in Haddonfield, NJ USA in the late 90's, I had Toyoda Sensei himself observe that my harsh technique was 'not bad, but for sure not good' (very flattering).
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Old 17th August 2018, 11:53 PM   #46
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All of you are wrong. The only true way is to follow the art of Oki-Doki. It pretty much defuses any situation.
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Old 18th August 2018, 09:38 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The same could be said of golf, basketball, or any other healthy hobby.

Critics of Aikido: how much actual knowledge do you have about it? Is it just YouTube videos or have you put in some time on the mat? Just curious how this criticism is founded
I've not had needles stuck in me to have an understanding that acupuncture is pure tosh. Yes, I've seen videos on the youtube and when, not if, Aikido fails it's the same excuse every time. Aikido is not combat focused. Aikido is not a fighting style, but a dance style. It doesn't work if your partner is not willing.

If it were actually effective, it would be used in for profit (MMA) or military programs. It is not, so, it is not.
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Old 18th August 2018, 11:33 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I've not had needles stuck in me to have an understanding that acupuncture is pure tosh.
The medical community is becoming quite accepting of acupuncture, in particular for treatment of chronic pain. But the analogy to Aikido is spurious. You could claim that tarot cards are ineffective too, or aura readings or whatever. No relation to Aikido, just an implied woo-ism.

Quote:
Yes, I've seen videos on the youtube and when, not if, Aikido fails it's the same excuse every time.
Right. No experience at all with it. I could have guessed that.

Quote:
Aikido is not combat focused.
We know. See discussion in this very thread

Quote:
Aikido is not a fighting style, but a dance style. It doesn't work if your partner is not willing.
Instead of watching a video, go watch a class. You may even take part in one at no charge at some schools. The real world, not surprisingly, is different than a video.

Quote:
If it were actually effective, it would be used in for profit (MMA) or military programs. It is not, so, it is not.
You may have missed up thread where Japanese riot police used a rough Aikido variant. Of course, it would not be used for MMA, as discussed.

How many hours of Aikido video have you watched, and by how many different demonstrators? The OP may be a variant of Silat, as opined by zooterkin. Does this mean, by your reasoning, all Silat must be a joke? You get that skeptical point, right?
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Old 19th August 2018, 05:42 AM   #49
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I have moderate experience with running.

But after impartial reflection I have to admit my running style would be useless for crossing no man's land under heavy machine gun fire.

So, I guess I should take up crawling in the mud under barbed wire instead. My workouts are likely to get some strange looks at the local park, though.
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Old 19th August 2018, 06:15 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The medical community is becoming quite accepting of acupuncture, in particular for treatment of chronic pain. But the analogy to Aikido is spurious. You could claim that tarot cards are ineffective too, or aura readings or whatever. No relation to Aikido, just an implied woo-ism.



Right. No experience at all with it. I could have guessed that.



We know. See discussion in this very thread



Instead of watching a video, go watch a class. You may even take part in one at no charge at some schools. The real world, not surprisingly, is different than a video.



You may have missed up thread where Japanese riot police used a rough Aikido variant. Of course, it would not be used for MMA, as discussed.

How many hours of Aikido video have you watched, and by how many different demonstrators? The OP may be a variant of Silat, as opined by zooterkin. Does this mean, by your reasoning, all Silat must be a joke? You get that skeptical point, right?
Functional self defense gets adopted en masse, notice how we have one example of one police force using it in a heavily modified state.

Either you are smarter than all military and police strategists, or your martial art is impractical. What's your take?
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Old 19th August 2018, 06:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I have moderate experience with running.

But after impartial reflection I have to admit my running style would be useless for crossing no man's land under heavy machine gun fire.

So, I guess I should take up crawling in the mud under barbed wire instead. My workouts are likely to get some strange looks at the local park, though.
For a true parody you would have had to insinuate that running is actually good for getting by heavy machine gun fire just not in most cases, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work in extreme cases.

Then just ask us to try it.
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Old 19th August 2018, 07:12 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Functional self defense gets adopted en masse, notice how we have one example of one police force using it in a heavily modified state.

Either you are smarter than all military and police strategists, or your martial art is impractical. What's your take?
I'll let you sort out the contradiction above.

BTW, who told you the Yoshi guys were using it in a 'heavily modified' state? AFAIK, the only modification is in intensity. The techniques are the same.

Also, it's no longer my art, hasn't been for a long time. But I respect what is has to offer, even if it is not for me. That's a benefit of actually doing something instead of watching videos.

There are more effective and efficient styles out there for MMA and law enforcement use. Please read that again. And a third time. Surely you can understand that although Aikido is not the best for raw combat, it still has benefits?
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:04 AM   #53
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I am a master of no-touch martial arts. SO far I've learned four styles: Glock, Colt, Mossberg, and Taurus. Planning on learning Savage or Winchester next, I think.



ETA: Oh, I forgot, I know Beretta, too. The 9mm variant.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:13 AM   #54
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We got taught some "Aikido" techniques (so-called) in the Army (1980s UK). Whirly-throwy, wristy-twisty, elbow-dislocatey sort of things. All totally useless in direct application against a ruffian as we never trained them enough (not convinced they'd have been any good even then, though). A tap from a riot baton or a caress with the butt of an SLR was always a functional substitute.

I am aware that the Tokyo riot police train it. Their "Senshusei" (or something like that) course is notoriously hard-ass.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:17 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I am a master of no-touch martial arts. SO far I've learned four styles: Glock, Colt, Mossberg, and Taurus. Planning on learning Savage or Winchester next, I think.



ETA: Oh, I forgot, I know Beretta, too. The 9mm variant.
Hojutsu.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:20 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Of course, CPR could become useful some day, Aikido? Not so much.


Except that every single time I've broken up a fight, I've used Aikido techniques.


Could I take down an MMA fighter who was coming at me full bore? Probably not. But at the same time, those guys aren't the ones getting into stupid fights in bars. People who have trained to fight know how easy it is to get hurt, so they tend not to get into fight unless they really have to.


Self defense isn't about beating the best fighter in the world, it's about beating the guy who's in front of you, and, in my experience, those guys are untrained idiots in the vast majority of cases.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
We got taught some "Aikido" techniques (so-called) in the Army (1980s UK). Whirly-throwy, wristy-twisty, elbow-dislocatey sort of things. All totally useless in direct application against a ruffian as we never trained them enough (not convinced they'd have been any good even then, though). A tap from a riot baton or a caress with the butt of an SLR was always a functional substitute.

I am aware that the Tokyo riot police train it. Their "Senshusei" (or something like that) course is notoriously hard-ass.
Most Aiki moves are geared towards a committed attack, with the attacker throwing themselves fully into it. If the attack is more like boxing (short, fast, and inside) they lose effectiveness quickly. When I trained in Wing Chun (fully uncommitted style), Aikido defenses dropped dramatically in effectiveness. I guess the argument could be made that Aiki stuff can work for certain attacks, but is not a good universal defense style. Then again, no style really is. Even MMA is a combination, often Thai boxing and BJJ. One thing I thought made sense about Aikido is that although it uses hip and leg throws in addition to the arm techniques, it tries to keep you on your feet. The thing that always concerned me about jujitsu was going to the ground. Fine if it is one-on-one, but that is the worst place to be in a crowd or if more than one attacker.
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Old 20th August 2018, 06:54 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Except that every single time I've broken up a fight, I've used Aikido techniques.


Could I take down an MMA fighter who was coming at me full bore? Probably not. But at the same time, those guys aren't the ones getting into stupid fights in bars. People who have trained to fight know how easy it is to get hurt, so they tend not to get into fight unless they really have to.


Self defense isn't about beating the best fighter in the world, it's about beating the guy who's in front of you, and, in my experience, those guys are untrained idiots in the vast majority of cases.
Truth. Drunks, too. Football tackles and wild swings lend themselves to Aiki defenses, and that's what I used every time, without thinking about it. You just don't run across that many pro fighters in bars.
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Old 20th August 2018, 09:34 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Given that the video is from Indonesia, I would guess itís some form of Silat (though itís nothing like the version I studied briefly many years ago).
It's silat bodoh*.

Actually, there's a lot of magical BS associated with much of silat but it's probably rather unfair to just leave it at that. Since silat refers to hundreds of different martial arts, including some sportsified variants, there's going to be a great variety of them including some with no flimflammery associated with them. Just looking at one video by one guy and concluding that "this is what it is" would totally miss the point. There are even a bunch of them which are very syncretic and use some traditional silat school as a starting point while adding what is useful from various foreign arts such as wing-chun.

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Aikido is (or was) used by the Tokyo riot police, though the form used is a lot harder than that taught in most dojos. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas
While 'x is taught to police/military/special forces', etc. is certainly reassuring, it is not a guarantee of effectiveness. I have seen videos of x being taught to police where x is clearly worthless (up to and including the touchless stuff óeven with claims of the master being able to generate invisible energy shields around their person that would protect them from harm). Of course, these videos don't tell us whether, after the fact, the people in charge or the students were pleased with the choice of instruction (but I wouldn't be shocked if they were).

On the other hand, for police forces which routinely face threats by hordes of flaming coconuts, there's clearly only one choice:
https://www.vice.com/en_id/article/43da7n/indonesian-police-are-learning-magical-martial-arts-to-fight-terrorists


* Probably completely wrong but I don't care enough to get bahasa indonesia right just to make a simple joking comment.
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Old 20th August 2018, 10:18 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Aikido is not combat focused. Aikido is not a fighting style, but a dance style. It doesn't work if your partner is not willing.
Instead of watching a video, go watch a class. You may even take part in one at no charge at some schools. The real world, not surprisingly, is different than a video.
Of course, if he chooses the wrong dojo, he may be better off with YouTube videos. The first actual class I ever watched in person was one where they were talking non-stop about projecting ki at each other. This was a big turn off and made me have exactly zero interest in signing up for such a thing.

I had years previous to that watched the occasional VHS video (my dad was involved with a judo centered martial arts federation and would have videos of various martial arts clinics and demonstrations lying around). It all looked very interesting (and I am pretty sure that I was not aware of the extremely cooperative nature of those exercises). I had at a later time (but still previous to watching the class session I mention in my previous paragraph) also played with the occasional aiki jutsu type technique with a judo instructor* who liked to mix things up.

In all of this, I had never run into this stuff about throwing ki around so I took that class I had observed as not being representative of aikido. However, had I, instead, come into that first class with no previous knowledge, I would have concluded that aikido is total nonsense (not that it may have limited use in self-defense, not that it's not a true combative, not that it's a form of cooperative dance, but that it's utter woo) which would have been a very unfair assessment.

At some later time, I did occasionally get a chance to watch bits and pieces of an aikido class taught by a nice Lutheran pastor that shared a room with the judo club at the university and I also never saw even a trace of the "ki projection" stuff being taught.

* As an aside, a very knowledgeable instructor and friend of the aforementioned judo sensei also taught what, to make an understatement, would be extremely questionable pressure point information: such as how pressure on a certain spots which inevitably got manipulated in the course of practicing certain wrist locks impinged on a certain meridian which would be certain to stimulate the large intestine (this would allegedly require some time in the restroom after the class).
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Old 21st August 2018, 04:12 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's long standing martial arts woo - the strong Chi that can blow-out candles from a distance, the Bruce Lee one-inch punch etc.
How to train that. Give yourself some room - ideally outside. Get a simple wooden dining chair and stand behind it. Grasp it by the top of each side of the back. Flip it 180 degrees so you catch it upside down by the bottom of the front legs. Keep doing until you can do it repeatedly at speed. You'll find your legs and lower back do most of the work.
Now open a door. Stand at 90 degrees. to the door in the same stance. Distance so you can extend your hand comfortably, arms about as they would be holding the chair. Touch your middle finger to the door. Now do the same action as flipping the chair clenching your hand instantly into a fist so you punch the door. The door's open to avoid injury to your hand.
It's main use is when throwing a jab.
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Old 26th August 2018, 07:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right. No experience at all with it. I could have guessed that.
I have been trained in hand to hand combat (USMC). Do you have any experience in that? I don't mean wrestling, or BJJ, either, I mean hand to hand combat with the intent to kill. So that is where I'm coming from when I say that Aikido is a dance.

It's an inferior form of whatever it purports to be.

Quote:
We know. See discussion in this very thread
Then stop pretending it's something it is not. It's not a martial art. It's a dance with a willing partner.

Quote:
Instead of watching a video, go watch a class. You may even take part in one at no charge at some schools. The real world, not surprisingly, is different than a video.
For what purpose? It's not designed to injure your opponent, so it has no purpose. It's not a combat art. Might as well take a dance class.

Quote:
You may have missed up thread where Japanese riot police used a rough Aikido variant. Of course, it would not be used for MMA, as discussed.
Why wouldn't it work in an MMA enviroment? When you understand that, you will understand that for self defense, it's a dance.

Quote:
How many hours of Aikido video have you watched, and by how many different demonstrators? The OP may be a variant of Silat, as opined by zooterkin. Does this mean, by your reasoning, all Silat must be a joke? You get that skeptical point, right?
Not familiar with that form. How many money winning champions do they have in open competitions? That is where the rubber meets the road. If the best practitioners aren't tested in actual competition, but only judged by how well they perform their various katas, it's a dance and not a martial art.
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Old 26th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #63
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Well with such approach no 'do' is martial art. I think that is pretty limiting definition.
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Old 27th August 2018, 06:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
It's not designed to injure your opponent, so it has no purpose.
Wrong.
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Old 27th August 2018, 06:39 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
How many money winning champions do they have in open competitions?
How many open competitions are there where the purpose is to injure or kill your opponent?
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Old 27th August 2018, 09:11 PM   #66
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My daughter just turned three and my wife wants to eventually get her into martial arts. We have looked at what certain courses offer. My wife has made it clear to me that teaching self respect, discipline, and conflict resolution is our job. We would be paying so she learns to how to beat the crap out of people.
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Old 27th August 2018, 09:31 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My daughter just turned three and my wife wants to eventually get her into martial arts. We have looked at what certain courses offer. My wife has made it clear to me that teaching self respect, discipline, and conflict resolution is our job. We would be paying so she learns to how to beat the crap out of people.
Or, at least, how to properly defend herself in a violent situation. The minimum required of every martial art system including, of course, Aikido.
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Old 27th August 2018, 09:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Or, at least, how to properly defend herself in a violent situation. The minimum required of every martial art system including, of course, Aikido.
The minimum required of every self-defense system. There's more to martial arts than just self-defense.
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Old 27th August 2018, 10:18 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The minimum required of every self-defense system. There's more to martial arts than just self-defense.
Which is why I used the word minimum. And the ability for an advanced student of any legitimate martial arts system to present a competent defense in a violent situation is, indeed, the minimum required.
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Old 27th August 2018, 10:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Which is why I used the word minimum. And the ability for an advanced student of any legitimate martial arts system to present a competent defense in a violent situation is, indeed, the minimum required.
No. It's not. It is the minimum required for a self-defense system. There are plenty of systems of martial arts that don't have self-defense as a goal.
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Old 27th August 2018, 10:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
None of the violent attackers stands a chance against this guy...

It's like he has a wall of FORCE around him.

Do any of you practice No-Touch Martial Arts in the streets? Can it stop bullets and knives, as well as fists?

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=95KyM_1534269306
The only excuse I can think of for this guy is that many martial arts practice "forms" or "kata" or whatever the variant word is for a choreographed, rehearsed demonstration of their art.

In Tae Kwon Do for example, every test for a higher rank involves demonstrating another form, a sequence of moves that tells a sort of story while demonstrating the kinds of strikes and defenses Tae Kwon Do uses. They have sparring too, but what this film is showing looks like a "form".

Now, I have a great deal of experience in both western and eastern martial arts from some awesome master instructors. The ones who could fight - that's all they did. All practice, every practice, every day of the week it is all they did. Fight in active combat.

I do respect and understand what the "soft" arts are all about. So what. They like the dance aspect, the lack of severe injuries combat gives you, and the spiritual aspects. It isn't about fighting.

Why can't they do what they want without criticism from others? People hike through the forest aimlessly. Play video games. Watch porn. Aikido is a soft art, repeat: art. I support anyone who wants to do that as an alternative to a hard art for at least the three reasons above.

Edit: this latter comment is not directed at Drewbot but rather that the discussion had drifted into Aikido-bashing.

Last edited by AlaskaBushPilot; 27th August 2018 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 28th August 2018, 04:48 AM   #72
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It sure doesn't look like a soft-art, when he is shooting MENTAL FORCE ARROWS at the attacker's private parts.
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Old 28th August 2018, 02:16 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
It sure doesn't look like a soft-art, when he is shooting MENTAL FORCE ARROWS at the attacker's private parts.
Well it's pretty awful choreography in any case. You'd think a guy would want to take pride in his work.

A few fellas with decent skills can put together a thoroughly enjoyable fight scene with just a little practice. Ham it up in Jackie Chan style.

So I was being a lot more than charitable and clarify that even if it is a "form" exhibition, it belongs in a Hall of Fame the actors don't want to be rememberd by.
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Old 28th August 2018, 05:22 PM   #74
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Well yeah, there's soft martial arts and there's sporting and recreational martial arts, and then there's just magic. When they claim to be able to perform actual self-defence with pure magic, then we're going to need some more reliable demonstrations under proper observational conditions.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 10:18 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
The only excuse I can think of for this guy is that many martial arts practice "forms" or "kata" or whatever the variant word is for a choreographed, rehearsed demonstration of their art.
Those are not forms. That's a guy who thinks he's magical and students who, perhaps out of self-deception, indulge his delusion. He's not unique. You can find many, many other examples of the same in the other thread.
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Old 4th September 2018, 12:36 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
The only excuse I can think of for this guy is that many martial arts practice "forms" or "kata" or whatever the variant word is for a choreographed, rehearsed demonstration of their art.
Nope. I've seen one of these guys up close. Peter Yeung (now the Ven. Lama Dondrup Dorje) was at a couple of Tai Chi demos I was at. He selected people from the audience to work with him - all wide-eyed and excited at the crap he was showing. As an example, when any half-sensible person receives a push it's simple to shift one foot back and you're in a stable stance. No, he trained his muchkins that the "advanced" thing to do was recover by moving into wuji - basically "at ease" with hands by side. So of course they trot back for yards in an inherently unstable position demonstrating his amazing qi powers.
And once people accept a little crap in their beliefs it's easier to pull them down the rabbit hole - just a little further, one step at a time. I even heard one defend Peter writing letters to magazines in his students name, praising him as a Buddha etc. To anyone familiar with Cantonese english-speakers the mistakes leapt out at you.
After taking part in this I was chatting to one of Shen's students (email, nntp?) with an electronics degree, smart guy, but totally bought into the empty force BS. I explained how all the effects he felt worked but couldn't sway him.
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Old 4th September 2018, 04:39 AM   #77
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This guy can move things on a special table.
He must be the highest belt available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEIqOQUEQAg
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Old 4th September 2018, 04:44 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This guy can move things on a special table.
He must be the highest belt available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEIqOQUEQAg
HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 5th September 2018, 09:53 AM   #79
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The real question is of this guy could stand up to the Invisible Chokeslam.

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Old 6th September 2018, 01:12 AM   #80
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This is the Peter Yeung I was talking about. He started as a Lau Gar teacher back when Lau Gar was doing well in UK kickboxing comps. Then a real Lau Gar teacher gave Peter an impromptu hands-on seminar in Lau Gar and when Peter recovered, lo and behold, he was a tai chi master.
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