ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

Reply
Old 24th August 2018, 12:13 PM   #361
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Both you and Loss Leader are confused. I suggested that paying Hunter from campaign funds might have been illegal if she didn't actually do work for the campaign. There is no equivalent here. I don't recall ever arguing that the payments to Hunter through non-campaign funds was illegal, which is the parallel here, and I certainly didn't do so in the thread he recently linked. Nor does whether or not I had made such an argument indicate anything about the validity of the argument here. This is really just an attempt to label me as a hypocrite, and to do so dishonestly rather than engage with the merits of my argument.
No, I'm just trying to point out that the Edwards case provides little insight into the current case, much less decided law or precedent. It is informative, at best.

But just read LL's post. He took the time to lay that out much more clearly.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:16 PM   #362
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
In other words, as usual, you have no intention of arguing honestly. Here's what the article says about Trump:

The rest of the article amounts to, "This stuff happens all the time."
No.... that is what the article says the prosecutors said about Trump.

protip: prosecutors are advocates representing a position.

And yes, as I expertly pointed out in my original post (which you bizarrely accuse me not arguing honestly) "seems like it is a pretty regular thing, huh?" or in other words ""This stuff happens all the time."

******* beautiful...
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:16 PM   #363
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I think that was on the Stormy thread. Good post too.

Quoted:
Thanks. I was scratching my head at how the same references were being made after LL made it clear that there was no controlling precedent established in the Edwards case that would be applicable.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:21 PM   #364
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,162
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No, I'm just trying to point out that the Edwards case provides little insight into the current case, much less decided law or precedent. It is informative, at best.

But just read LL's post. He took the time to lay that out much more clearly.
He's right that it's not a binding legal precedent, but he's wrong on basically every other front. Edwards had no legal obligation to give Hunter any money, the money didn't come from Edwards anyways so it wouldn't satisfy any legal obligation he did have, what Hunter spent the money on subsequently is completely irrelevant, and Cohen's efforts to suppress Stormy's story began in 2011.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:23 PM   #365
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,186
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Both you and Loss Leader are confused. I suggested that paying Hunter from campaign funds might have been illegal if she didn't actually do work for the campaign. There is no equivalent here. I don't recall ever arguing that the payments to Hunter through non-campaign funds was illegal, which is the parallel here, and I certainly didn't do so in the thread he recently linked. Nor does whether or not I had made such an argument indicate anything about the validity of the argument here. This is really just an attempt to label me as a hypocrite, and to do so dishonestly rather than engage with the merits of my argument.
You're being absurd. I've seen post after post after post of you trotting out the Edwards case as support of this silly ass argument that Cohen DIDN'T make an illegal campaign contribution. And LL proved very conclusively that your citation doesn't remotely prove it.

I feel like I'm watching a never ending loop of Vizzini in the Princess Bride.

"INCONCEIVABLE!" cries Zig.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:25 PM   #366
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He's right that it's not a binding legal precedent,
Cool. I'm good with that. So, can we stop saying that the FEC guidance that the prosecutors ignored in the Edwards case is now the law?
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:28 PM   #367
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,965
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No.... that is what the article says the prosecutors said about Trump.

protip: prosecutors are advocates representing a position.

And yes, as I expertly pointed out in my original post (which you bizarrely accuse me not arguing honestly) "seems like it is a pretty regular thing, huh?" or in other words ""This stuff happens all the time."

******* beautiful...
I asked for evidence that Trump routinely paid hush money. If you have none but keep insisting you do, that's dishonest.
__________________
"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!"
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:30 PM   #368
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,162
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're being absurd. I've seen post after post after post of you trotting out the Edwards case as support of this silly ass argument that Cohen DIDN'T make an illegal campaign contribution. And LL proved very conclusively that your citation doesn't remotely prove it.
Prove it? Perhaps not. It's pretty strong evidence, though. Again, the FEC specifically and explicitly said that the payments to Hunter did not constitute a campaign finance contribution. You can take exception to the FEC's opinion on the matter, but you can't do that at the same time as arguing that all these other people involved in the current case should be heeded as authorities.

Oh, and the count that Edwards was found not guilty on was the relevant one here, the payments from Mellon to Hunter which the prosecution claimed were campaign contributions.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:31 PM   #369
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Thanks. I was scratching my head at how the same references were being made after LL made it clear that there was no controlling precedent established in the Edwards case that would be applicable.
Let me pour some salve on that itch, yo:

Quote:
Initially, we note that the Commission is precisely the type of agency to which deference should presumptively be afforded. Congress has vested the Commission with "primary and substantial responsibility for administering and enforcing the Act," Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U. S. 1, 109 (1976), providing the agency with "extensive rulemaking and adjudicative powers." Id., at 110. It is authorized to "formulate general policy with respect to the administration of this Act," 437d(a)(9)
FEC v. Democratic Senatorial Campaign Comm., 454 U.S. 27, 37, 102 S.Ct. 38, 70 L.Ed.2d 23 (1981)

You see folks, the government has to prove that the person willfully violated the statute, and if they are relying on FEC guidance regarding what the statute means, well, that is all she wrote.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti

Last edited by The Big Dog; 24th August 2018 at 12:40 PM.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:31 PM   #370
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,162
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Cool. I'm good with that. So, can we stop saying that the FEC guidance that the prosecutors ignored in the Edwards case is now the law?
No, the FEC guidance is not itself the law. But it is the proper reading of the law.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:36 PM   #371
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,537
Is there a goal in arguing that Cohen confessed to a non crime? If this was about scrapping campaign finance law, I'm on board. But that doesn't seem to be the point.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:39 PM   #372
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,289
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there a goal in arguing that Cohen confessed to a non crime? If this was about scrapping campaign finance law, I'm on board. But that doesn't seem to be the point.
If you are uninterested in the theoretical implications of a hypothetical situation that is being pushed, one can tell it's pretty pointless.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:39 PM   #373
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,186
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Prove it? Perhaps not. It's pretty strong evidence, though. Again, the FEC specifically and explicitly said that the payments to Hunter did not constitute a campaign finance contribution. You can take exception to the FEC's opinion on the matter, but you can't do that at the same time as arguing that all these other people involved in the current case should be heeded as authorities.

Oh, and the count that Edwards was found not guilty on was the relevant one here, the payments from Mellon to Hunter which the prosecution claimed were campaign contributions.
Wow! And then you trot it out again. "INCONCEIVABLE"!

That IS irrelevant. Two totally different situations.

A one time payment 11 days before the election for the expressed purpose of influencing that election is a whole other kettle of fish.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:43 PM   #374
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,965
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there a goal in arguing that Cohen confessed to a non crime? If this was about scrapping campaign finance law, I'm on board. But that doesn't seem to be the point.
I believe the purpose of the law is to prevent secret influence over a potential office holder. Do you really have a problem with knowing who is doing what to help a candidate win, and what they might want in return?
__________________
"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!"
WilliamSeger is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:44 PM   #375
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,162
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Wow! And then you trot it out again. "INCONCEIVABLE"!

That IS irrelevant. Two totally different situations.

A one time payment 11 days before the election for the expressed purpose of influencing that election is a whole other kettle of fish.
You were wrong before, and you're still wrong. About everything.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:44 PM   #376
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,289
More popcorn

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/n...ges-vance.html

Quote:
The Manhattan district attorney’s office is considering pursuing criminal charges against the Trump Organization and two senior company officials in connection with Michael D. Cohen’s hush money payment to an adult film actress, according to two officials with knowledge of the matter.

A state investigation would center on how the company accounted for its reimbursement to Mr. Cohen for the $130,000 he paid to the actress, Stephanie Clifford, who has said she had an affair with President Trump, the officials said.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:47 PM   #377
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,537
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I believe the purpose of the law is to prevent secret influence over a potential office holder. Do you really have a problem with knowing who is doing what to help a candidate win, and what they might want in return?
If you are focusing on my statement that I'm onboard with scrapping campaign law, my answer to your question is a derail.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:47 PM   #378
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,394
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Let me pour some salve on that itch, yo:



FEC v. Democratic Senatorial Campaign Comm., 454 U.S. 27, 37, 102 S.Ct. 38, 70 L.Ed.2d 23 (1981)

You see folks, the government has to prove that the person willfully violated the statute, and if they are relying on FEC guidance regarding what the statute means, well, that is all she wrote.
should <> has
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:48 PM   #379
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, the FEC guidance is not itself the law. But it is the proper reading of the law.
I see you think so. Case law would be more persuasive to some.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:48 PM   #380
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,618
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Just that last bit, 'accounted for' - is this about how they categorized the expense?

Yah, I get that if they expensed a personal settlement, claiming it as remuneration for their lawyer's services, AFAIK, that's money laundering / tax evasion.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:50 PM   #381
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Let me pour some salve on that itch, yo:



FEC v. Democratic Senatorial Campaign Comm., 454 U.S. 27, 37, 102 S.Ct. 38, 70 L.Ed.2d 23 (1981)

You see folks, the government has to prove that the person willfully violated the statute, and if they are relying on FEC guidance regarding what the statute means, well, that is all she wrote.
Cool, where did Trump or Cohen state that they were relying on FEC guidance when they structured this payment?

I probably just missed it as I haven't been paying close attention to these finer details.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 12:57 PM   #382
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Cool, where did Trump or Cohen state that they were relying on FEC guidance when they structured this payment?

I probably just missed it as I haven't been paying close attention to these finer details.
well, now Trump has not shown his hand yet at all, but

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...84554290003969

as always, I am delighted that we can reach consensus on the impact of FEC guidance.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:20 PM   #383
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,186
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You were wrong before, and you're still wrong. About everything.
OK then Vizzini.

A whole lot of lawyers disagree with you. Where did you say you got your JD?
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:35 PM   #384
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,494
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
OK then Vizzini.

A whole lot of lawyers disagree with you. Where did you say you got your JD?
The same place where Jenny McCarthy got her MD degree.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:38 PM   #385
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, now Trump has not shown his hand yet at all, but

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...84554290003969

as always, I am delighted that we can reach consensus on the impact of FEC guidance.
And after playing his hand Cohen plead guilty. I wonder if Cohen's hand is related to Trump's hand.

Showing that your argument holds no water even if looked at as you please does not mean we are in agreement.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:45 PM   #386
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And after playing his hand Cohen plead guilty. I wonder if Cohen's hand is related to Trump's hand.
Gonna go ahead and say no.

Because the game was Eight card stud, and the prosecutors were holding a straight flush to the queen (aka cohen's wife), with three trash cards while Cohen had three dueces.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:50 PM   #387
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 19,625
Trump is drawing dead and sweating as he ups the bluster and the ante.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:51 PM   #388
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,186
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And after playing his hand Cohen plead guilty. I wonder if Cohen's hand is related to Trump's hand.
No, I think Cohen has a normal size hand. Isn't cursed with tiny fingers.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:54 PM   #389
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,186
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Trump is drawing dead and sweating as he ups the bluster and the ante.
Going all in with nothing. And I wonder what Mueller is holding.
__________________
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:56 PM   #390
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,512
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
To repeat folks:

"Cohen pleaded guilty to an illegal campaign contribution. That's an actual crime. But if the payment to Stormy wasn't a campaign contribution (and I do not believe it was, for reasons detailed already), then Cohen can't actually be guilty of it."

This has been explained ten ways to Sunday
Corpus Delecti demands that if no crime has been committed, then a defendant cannon be convicted of it, nor can he/she plead guilty to it. This is black letter law, and a cornerstone of western jurisprudence.

As you say, making an illegal campaign contribution is an actual crime. The fact that....

1. Michael Cohen (a lawyer) plead guilty to it.
2. Lanny Davis (a lawyer) allowed his client to plead guilty to it.
3. Prosecutor Robert Khuzami (a lawyer) allowed Cohen to plead guilty to it.
4. Judge Kimba Wood (a lawyer) allowed Cohen to plead guilty to it.

... is a cast iron indication that they are all satisfied a crime has, in fact been committed. Dozens of other lawyers all agree, but two Trump sycophants on this forum, you and Ziggurat, both with a combined experience in legal matters that amount to ZERO disagree and insist they are wrong.

As you are so keen on saying... Hooboy!
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 01:59 PM   #391
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 41,494
Rumors that Trump is going to Pardon Manafort, despite almost everybody telling him not to do it.
Go ahead Donnie do it!
I could not think of anything that could help the Democrats more come November.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:01 PM   #392
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,858
It is interesting that we live at a time when certain political viewpoints have reached such a level of... commitment? dedication? near-religious belief? that any facts or events to the contrary are simply dismissed out of hand. It's fake news, ignore it! It's lies from "Deep State" or "Deep Justice," ignore them. Even a confession that is well-documented with facts and evidence is denied as potentially fake.

So what can one truly believe? Apparently only what one wants to believe. Anything else has possible holes in it and is not to be trusted.

Somehow I don't feel good about what this means for our future...
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:04 PM   #393
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,162
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Corpus Delecti demands that if no crime has been committed, then a defendant cannon be convicted of it, nor can he/she plead guilty to it. This is black letter law, and a cornerstone of western jurisprudence.
It's cute that you think this principle is inviolable. Really, it's just totes adorbs.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:07 PM   #394
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Corpus Delecti demands that if no crime has been committed, then a defendant cannon be convicted of it, nor can he/she plead guilty to it. This is black letter law, and a cornerstone of western jurisprudence.

As you say, making an illegal campaign contribution is an actual crime. The fact that....

1. Michael Cohen (a lawyer) plead guilty to it.
2. Lanny Davis (a lawyer) allowed his client to plead guilty to it.
3. Prosecutor Robert Khuzami (a lawyer) allowed Cohen to plead guilty to it.
4. Judge Kimba Wood (a lawyer) allowed Cohen to plead guilty to it.

... is a cast iron indication that they are all satisfied a crime has, in fact been committed. Dozens of other lawyers all agree, but two Trump sycophants on this forum, you and Ziggurat, both with a combined experience in legal matters that amount to ZERO disagree and insist they are wrong.

As you are so keen on saying... Hooboy!
Kimba Woods did what now?

Anyhow, y'all are having a spectacular problem understanding what we have explained. Cohen pled guilty because he got something in exchange.

savvy?
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:09 PM   #395
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,841
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Kimba Woods did what now?

Anyhow, y'all are having a spectacular problem understanding what we have explained. Cohen pled guilty because he got something in exchange.

savvy?
What did he get?
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:13 PM   #396
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,162
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
What did he get?
What do defendants normally get for pleading? A reduced sentence. Is that not obvious?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:13 PM   #397
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It is interesting that we live at a time when certain political viewpoints have reached such a level of... commitment? dedication? near-religious belief? that any facts or events to the contrary are simply dismissed out of hand. It's fake news, ignore it! It's lies from "Deep State" or "Deep Justice," ignore them. Even a confession that is well-documented with facts and evidence is denied as potentially fake.

So what can one truly believe? Apparently only what one wants to believe. Anything else has possible holes in it and is not to be trusted.

Somehow I don't feel good about what this means for our future...
"Even a confession that is well-documented with facts and evidence is denied as potentially fake."

Y'all have seen the 'well documented facts and evidence"? Because we have not.

By the way, where did someone call something fake? It has been explained the Cohen enetred into a plea deal because he got something in exchange.

I would not worry to much about the future, posters here are cutting enough straw to make damn sure there is a soft landing.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:14 PM   #398
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,289
As this seems to have morphed into the "trump criminal charges thread"

an opinion piece about the NY State lawsuit against the Trump Foundation

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.fd3aa76e34f3

Pretty dodgy. And very likely violations of campaign finance laws.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:14 PM   #399
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,348
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
What did he get?
Well here, they ain't going after his wife on the tax charges.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:17 PM   #400
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,326
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
What did he get?
It's in the plea agreement.

He got the prosecutor to recommend the punishment as calculated by a formula taking into account the number and severity of charges he plead to as well as his criminal history, among other things.

And no, there is nothing in there that says he got more lenient charges on the tax crimes because he plead to this specific crime. The implied quid pro quo simply does not exist.

The evidence indicates that he plead because they raided his offices before he had a chance to clean up. When they got everything, you fold quickly.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.