ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

Reply
Old 24th August 2018, 08:56 AM   #281
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,198
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is your claim that people who understand the law always follow it perfectly? Because that claim is kind of self-defeating in this case. And if it's not, well, the fact that they may understand it doesn't really matter.
The guy on the Internet with ZERO background in the law versus a half a dozen attorneys including the defendant knows better. Maybe, and I am just putting it out there. Maybe you don't understand as well as you think you do.

Perhaps?
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 08:56 AM   #282
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,208
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
How certain are you that such records don't exist?
I consider it very unlikely but not impossible.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 08:59 AM   #283
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,208
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The guy on the Internet with ZERO background in the law versus a half a dozen attorneys including the defendant knows better. Maybe, and I am just putting it out there. Maybe you don't understand as well as you think you do.

Perhaps?
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12


The prosecution has incentive to over-charge. The defense has incentive to cut a deal. The judge has no incentive to throw out the plea. Following the exact letter of the law on this isn't the top priority for anyone involved.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by kmortis; 27th August 2018 at 08:42 AM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 08:59 AM   #284
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,481
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is huge.

Weisselberg will be able to explain all of Trump's business and personal finances. You now have Trump's most trusted lawyer and his accountant for decades. Trump's taxes and financials are going to come pouring out and AW will be able to explain them all.
But you know, David Farentheld at the WashPost has had story after story of bad behavior by the Trump Foundation. It's basically the basis for the NY AG case, even.

Yeah, having the CFO testify will help, but it's not like there will be that much new, I don't think.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:02 AM   #285
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,989
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is huge.

Weisselberg will be able to explain all of Trump's business and personal finances. You now have Trump's most trusted lawyer and his accountant for decades. Trump's taxes and financials are going to come pouring out and AW will be able to explain them all.
Trump forgot the basic principle of keeping your shady deals secret: kill the accountant.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:04 AM   #286
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 10,830
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But you know, David Farentheld at the WashPost has had story after story of bad behavior by the Trump Foundation. It's basically the basis for the NY AG case, even.

Yeah, having the CFO testify will help, but it's not like there will be that much new, I don't think.
The Trump Organization is not the same as the Trump Foundation.

The former is the business, the latter the charity. The CFO of the business was granted immunity. I don't know that he plays any role in the charity.

ETA: Also, the CFO already testified before the grand jury in the Cohen case. I don't know if there's any further testimony expected.

Last edited by phiwum; 24th August 2018 at 09:05 AM.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:12 AM   #287
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,725
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump forgot the basic principle of keeping your shady deals secret: kill the accountant.
Well he could shoot him in the middle of 5th avenue and his supporters would be OK with that.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:15 AM   #288
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,340
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I consider it very unlikely but not impossible.
Then it is quite possible that the people who have access to those records know that they do exist.

Would any of this look different if those records do exist?
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:16 AM   #289
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,312
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Then as now, he was the victim of unscrupulous sorts of people.
I guess Trump isn't a very good judge of character.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:18 AM   #290
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,362
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Sure. Not certain how that is relevant.

How many examples can you offer of judges accepting guilty pleas for something that wasn't a crime?
As others have noted, this happens frequently among poor defendants who have little choice but to rely on overworked, and underpaid, public defenders for legal advise, and are faced with well-funded and wildly aggressive prosecutors. It helps when you set up society specifically to convince them that they'll likely end up in jail sooner or later regardless.

This notably does not apply at all to well-connected, presumably wealthy people like Michael Cohen, who often aren't prosecuted at all despite being obviously corrupt. It's much more likely that, in his case, it was a mix of a lot of evidence against him, and personal anger towards Dolt 45 who famously hung him out to dry after winning office.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:21 AM   #291
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,961
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12


The prosecution has incentive to over-charge. The defense has incentive to cut a deal. The judge has no incentive to throw out the plea. Following the exact letter of the law on this isn't the top priority for anyone involved.
Of course it was, the risk is that the whole plea agreement could be overturned
and/or declared null and void if the law wasn't followed.

Plus of course the lawyers on both side could be open to professional malpractice charges and breaches of their professional ethics so could even lose their licence to practice law or worse.

Everyone in this matter had a "top priority" to get the law right.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you

Last edited by kmortis; 27th August 2018 at 08:43 AM.
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:23 AM   #292
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,198
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But you know, David Farentheld at the WashPost has had story after story of bad behavior by the Trump Foundation. It's basically the basis for the NY AG case, even.

Yeah, having the CFO testify will help, but it's not like there will be that much new, I don't think.
I think you're wrong. Farentheld did a fantastic job of investigative journalism. I think he won the Pulitzer for it. But he did it from the outside. AW knows and can prove that Farentheld couldn't possibly have learned.

Trump is almost certainly a big time criminal. But he's not a Mafia don. He wasn't selling drugs or running prostitution or a protection racket. No, his crimes were financial. No one is better equipped to explain how money was moved and hid better than his long time accountant.

AW has been with Trump's forever. I believe he even worked with Donald's father Fred Trump. Cohen might be able to show where some of the bodies were buried but AW can show how much they paid for the shovels.

Never forget what Mark Felt told Woodward and Bernstein.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 24th August 2018 at 09:28 AM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:26 AM   #293
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,198
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The Trump Organization is not the same as the Trump Foundation.

The former is the business, the latter the charity. The CFO of the business was granted immunity. I don't know that he plays any role in the charity.

ETA: Also, the CFO already testified before the grand jury in the Cohen case. I don't know if there's any further testimony expected.
He was listed as the Treasurer of the Foundation.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 24th August 2018 at 09:27 AM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:27 AM   #294
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,384
From Twitter

Quote:
Kyle Griffin

Verified account

Weisselberg then sent the invoice to another Trump Organization executive via e-mail directing him to "Please pay from the Trust. Post to legal expenses. Put 'retainer for the months of January and February 2017' in the description."
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:30 AM   #295
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,321
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Then it is quite possible that the people who have access to those records know that they do exist.

Would any of this look different if those records do exist?
It's also an unrealistically high standard of evidence.

The Scooby Doo requirement.

"Oh dang I knew I shouldn't have detailed all my crimes in such a legally unambiguous way on email"

Luckily the judge didn't see it that way
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:32 AM   #296
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,977
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The impact on the election does not suffice. Trump's interest in the impact of the election does not suffice. To get past the personal use exception, we need to establish that Trump would not have paid Stormy if there were no election. If there were emails which not only discussed the impact on the election but further stated that Trump would not pay but for the election, that would be proof.
One of us must not understand the meaning of "intent."
__________________
"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!"
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:32 AM   #297
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,321
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Of course it was, the risk is that the whole plea agreement could be overturned
and/or declared null and void if the law wasn't followed.

Plus of course the lawyers on both side could be open to professional malpractice charges and breaches of their professional ethics so could even lose their licence to practice law or worse.

Everyone in this matter had a "top priority" to get the law right.
Yes, but it's quite an obscure case, so there won't be much scrutiny of it.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:33 AM   #298
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,415
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Of course it was, the risk is that the whole plea agreement could be overturned
and/or declared null and void if the law wasn't followed.

Plus of course the lawyers on both side could be open to professional malpractice charges and breaches of their professional ethics so could even lose their licence to practice law or worse.

Everyone in this matter had a "top priority" to get the law right.
EVERYTHING you just said was wrong.

Folks it was an agreement, where the prosecutors wanted a conviction that would lay a foundation for bigger fish, and Cohen wanted to do as little time as possible and get his wife off the hook.

No lawyer is going to be sued because Cohen copped to plea on charges he could have beaten where he was also being charged with a bunch of counts he had zero chance of winning.
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:35 AM   #299
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 12,140
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do keep up, we've been over this before, and it should be obvious that this reasoning is wrong.

It all depends on what kind of deal Cohen was able to get. I have no doubt Cohen was guilty on some other charges, and had little chance of successfully defending against them. Pleading to this specific charge is probably irrelevant to him, the total sentence is what likely matters. And if his lawyer can get a lower sentence by pleading to an additional charge, then that's what he's going to do. There's nothing stupid about doing that.
Sorry, but that really does not make any sense.

Cohen himself flat-out said that he plead guilty to the charges against him because he is in fact guilty of those charges.
__________________
On 28 JUN 2018 'yuno44907' said: "I am god and you have to help me."
On 03 JUL 2018 'yuno44907' got banned from the Forum.

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:41 AM   #300
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 22,014
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that really does not make any sense.

Cohen himself flat-out said that he plead guilty to the charges against him because he is in fact guilty of those charges.
Yes, but he's now part of the Deep State.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:42 AM   #301
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,016
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I guess Trump isn't a very good judge of character.
It's really difficult to be the victim of unscrupulous people if one is honest and not on the make.

It's very, very difficult to con an honest man, where's the leverage?

Conning a crook though? Much more viable.
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:44 AM   #302
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,208
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Of course it was, the risk is that the whole plea agreement could be overturned
and/or declared null and void if the law wasn't followed.
Who the hell is going to overturn it? Third parties have no standing to appeal, and both the prosecution and the defense entered into the deal because they both prefer it to the alternative, so neither the prosecution nor the defense will appeal. The only person who really could have overturned the deal is the judge, but again, he's got no incentive to. Accept the plea, clear the case and be done with it. Cohen's certainly guilty of other stuff, it's not like he'd be saving an innocent man, and his sentence will likely not be overly harsh either.

Quote:
Plus of course the lawyers on both side could be open to professional malpractice charges and breaches of their professional ethics so could even lose their licence to practice law or worse.
Yeah, right This isn't a case where a totally innocent person is being railroaded. Cohen's certainly guilty of some of the charges. Prosecutors don't generally get punished for overcharging, and the plea deal is probably pretty good for the defense.

Quote:
Everyone in this matter had a "top priority" to get the law right.
That's a fantasy.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:45 AM   #303
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,208
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that really does not make any sense.

Cohen himself flat-out said that he plead guilty to the charges against him because he is in fact guilty of those charges.
That's frequently a condition of a plea.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:49 AM   #304
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 17,340
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's also an unrealistically high standard of evidence.

The Scooby Doo requirement.

"Oh dang I knew I shouldn't have detailed all my crimes in such a legally unambiguous way on email"

Luckily the judge didn't see it that way
Of course, but even if you use that unreasonably high bar, you can't assume those documents don't exist in Cohen's office.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:54 AM   #305
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,415
Cohen tells Congress he doesn't know if Trump knew of the Russia meeting.
Someone tells CNN that Cohen said trump did know
CNN calls Lanny and Lanny confirms it

Quote:
When The Post called Cohen’s lawyer, Lanny Davis, at the time to confirm the report, he said as an anonymous source that it was accurate.

But Thursday, Davis, speaking on the record, apologized for confirming something he did not know to be true.

“I regret that I wasn’t clear enough to The Post. I should have been more clear. I could not independently confirm the information in the CNN story,” he said.
Lanny is a LAWYER, ya see folks, and his top priority is to get everything right.

https://nypost.com/2018/08/23/cohen-...form=hootsuite
__________________
"Don't tell me what cases you've won, tell me who you've beaten."

-M. Avenatti
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 09:56 AM   #306
Arcade22
Illuminator
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,725
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, if you are correct, then Trump sure does hire incredibly stupid people.

After all, Cohen is a lawyer himself and if he just plead "guilty" to a crime that he was actually innocent of, then he has got to be the most stupid lawyer in the world.
We're dealing with the deep state here. Even the President of the United States is almost powerless against the jack booted thugs of the Illuminati and Freemasons. They orchestrate false flag mass shootings to justify stealing the peoples liberties... getting a morally upstanding godfearing citizens convicted of bogus crimes is nothing...
__________________
Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:03 AM   #307
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 12,140
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's frequently a condition of a plea.
Well, ...

If the person who is charged with a crime, actually does admit to doing that crime in writing, and admits orally to doing that crime while in courtroom while under oath, and there other evidence to support his admission guilt, then that almost always means that the person charged with the crime is actually guilty of doing that crime.

I am not sure what else is needed to substantiate things.
__________________
On 28 JUN 2018 'yuno44907' said: "I am god and you have to help me."
On 03 JUL 2018 'yuno44907' got banned from the Forum.

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:09 AM   #308
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,043
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Both Ziggurat and The Big Dog seem to be arguing that he's pleaded guilty to something that's not a crime and which he didn't do anyway, because prosecutors have asked him to.
And he would’ve gotten away with it if it hadn’t been for that meddling porn star!
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:13 AM   #309
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,539
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Sure. Not certain how that is relevant.

How many examples can you offer of judges accepting guilty pleas for something that wasn't a crime?
As others have noted, this happens frequently among poor defendants who have little choice but to rely on overworked, and underpaid, public defenders for legal advise, and are faced with well-funded and wildly aggressive prosecutors. It helps when you set up society specifically to convince them that they'll likely end up in jail sooner or later regardless.

<snip>

Please note the highlighted phrase.

Yes, I understand that people will plead guilty to crimes they did not commit, and that this is something more frequently encountered among the less well-off.

But Ziggurat began by stating that what Cohen did was not a crime, and then went on to talk about false pleas. I am not aware of a lot of people of any financial or social status pleading guilty to things which aren't crimes to begin with.

How do you charge someone with something which isn't a crime? What statutes do you specify if none exist?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:15 AM   #310
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,321
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Please note the highlighted phrase.

Yes, I understand that people will plead guilty to crimes they did not commit, and that this is something more frequently encountered among the less well-off.

But Ziggurat began by stating that what Cohen did was not a crime, and then went on to talk about false pleas. I am not aware of a lot of people of any financial or social status pleading guilty to things which aren't crimes to begin with.

How do you charge someone with something which isn't a crime? What statutes do you specify if none exist?
Exactly, which is why I took issue with Emily's Cat's analogy below:
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
!!! Analogy Warning !!!

Bob is heroin dealer, who is attacked by an armed robber while walking down a dark alley. Bob shoots and kills the robber. The cops have been following Bob because they suspect he's a heroin dealer, and they witness the shooting. The cops snag Bob up after he kills the robber, and take him in for interrogation. During the interrogation, they tell him that he's under suspicion for being a heroin dealer, which carries a sentence of 25 years... but that murder only carries a sentence of 5 years. Bob isn't completely sure how much info the cops have on him with respect to heroin dealing. The cops offer him a deal: plead guilty to murder and flip on his supplier, and they'll drop the case against him related to heroin dealing. The cops tell Bob that if he doesn't take the plea bargain, they will prosecute for heroin dealing.

Bob didn't commit murder - it was clearly self-defense. But he is willing to plead guilty to murder because it carries a shorter sentence than heroin dealing does.

The action can be cast as a crime, and can be plead to as a crime, without actually having been a crime.
That's not the right analogy, of course one could plead guilty to a crime for which you are innocent.

The argument occasionally is that he pleaded guilty to something that wasn't a crime but which he did actually do. Or possibly that he pleaded guilty to something that he didn't do and anyway wasn't a crime.

Which is just a stupid argument.

It is like Bob being charged with dealing in carrots.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 24th August 2018 at 10:16 AM. Reason: corrected a typo in my original (bug to but)
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:16 AM   #311
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,481
Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
And he would’ve gotten away with it if it hadn’t been for that meddling porn star!
Or "meddling with the porn star" as the case may be.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:18 AM   #312
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,423
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, WD. Whether Cohen is guilty or innocent of making a campaign contribution by paying Stormy depends entirely upon whether paying Stormy is a campaign contribution. Statistics do not matter for that evaluation.
That explains why, on four separate occasions, you accused others of not understanding statistics.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And again, because you're misrepresenting the debate, the issue here was whether or not judges reject false guilty pleas. It was claimed that the judge's acceptance of the plea was evidence that the plea was correct. But this is wrong. Judges do not generally reject guilty pleas even when the defendant is not guilty. That's all the link was needed for. Nobody has actually contested that.
I erased my post one minute before you submitted your response. I was planning to submit a corrected post, but I guess there's no reason to do so now that you've decided the estimated statistics you cited are irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, WD. You have every single thing in this post wrong, because you don't understand what's actually being argued.
I assume you spotted my error, but were too generous to point it out. Thank you.

Last edited by W.D.Clinger; 24th August 2018 at 10:24 AM.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:23 AM   #313
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,208
Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
That explains why, on four separate occasions, you accused others of not understanding statistics.
Yes. Because they tried to apply statistics in invalid ways.

Quote:
I erased my post one minute before you submitted your response. I was planning to submit a corrected post, but I guess there's no reason to do so now that you've decided the estimated statistics you cited are irrelevant.
They are irrelevant to determining the odds that Cohen would plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit, yes. They are not irrelevant to showing that judges frequently accept guilty pleas from innocent people.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:26 AM   #314
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 41,208
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
How do you charge someone with something which isn't a crime? What statutes do you specify if none exist?
Are you honestly this clueless? How can you get something so obvious some completely wrong?

Nobody is claiming there is no statute being referred to. My claim is that Cohen's actions in paying Stormy don't actually meet the criteria of that statute.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:28 AM   #315
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 12,140
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Both Ziggurat and The Big Dog seem to be arguing that he's pleaded guilty to something that's not a crime and which he didn't do anyway, because prosecutors have asked him to.
I think that you are quite correct, but their logic still fails me.

After all, if both 'Ziggurat' and 'The Big Dog' are correct in stating that somehow Cohen was forced to plead guilty to a crime that he was innocent of, then that would mean that:

First, Cohen, the Cohen legal team, and everyone on prosecution are terrible liars.

And second, that the judge overseeing this case is total idiot for not seeing these liars himself.

Therefore, everyone involved in this case is either incredibly dishonest and/or incredibly stupid.

As for me, I know that the legal system is far from perfect, but I hardly believe that the legal system could possibly be this broken especially when one considers this case to involve a sitting president.
__________________
On 28 JUN 2018 'yuno44907' said: "I am god and you have to help me."
On 03 JUL 2018 'yuno44907' got banned from the Forum.

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:28 AM   #316
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,062
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I would not hold impeachment proceedings against Trump over this. Not his affairs, not his hush money, not this illegal campaign contributions. But if he paid Cohen legal fees or the porn stars with the Trump foundation accounts, it's a very different ball game.

Far more troubling to me has been his abuse of power. The blatant obstruction of justice and jury tampering.

My guess is that there will be other crimes uncovered.
Abuse of power, cheating to get elected, pathologic narcissism, family criminal enterprise soon to be further exposed...

Trump's world is crumbling around him, hold on to your hats.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:31 AM   #317
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,062
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
OK, I'm about to blow your mind with a paradox:

Large fonts don't convince people.

Let's see you get out of that one.
Neither do unconvincing arguments.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:33 AM   #318
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5,641
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Let's see.

Michael Cohen is a lawyer.
Lanny Davis is a lawyer.
The prosecutors are lawyers.
The judge is a lawyer.

Zig is not.

Now out of that group, who I wonder understands the law?


Hmmmm.
The depth of denial among a couple posters in this thread is mind boggling. It's like still claiming a sample is the victim's blood even though it tested negative for blood and contained no DNA of the victim. But, hell's bells, it's still blood for some people.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:35 AM   #319
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,062
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Once again, that isn't how the private use exception works. It doesn't suffice for the expense to benefit the campaign.
Have you posted the paragraph in FEC regulations which spells this out?

It sounds like something you made up.

Not that this makes one iota of difference in this case.

Cohen admitted the payoff was for the campaign. Cohen admitted under oath he intended to violate FEC regs. Cohen had a tape backing up his claim Trump knew it as well. It's not up to you to imagine it was a personal expense because you and Giuliani made that excuse up after the fact.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 10:42 AM   #320
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,321
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes. Because they tried to apply statistics in invalid ways.



They are irrelevant to determining the odds that Cohen would plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit, yes. They are not irrelevant to showing that judges frequently accept guilty pleas from innocent people.
Why are they invalid?

If one links to a study estimating that 2-8% of guilty pleas are innocent, then presumably one is arguing that the percentage is a factor.

Otherwise one could just point out the obvious fact that false confessions and guilty pleas are known.

If one accepts these statistics, then one can presumably in the absence of any other information about a person who has pleaded guilty, say that overall there'd be a 2-8% chance that they had pleaded guilty when innocent.

However in this case we do have additional information that makes this far less likely than that. If the US is anything like the UK. then some of these cases will involve obvious miscarriages of justice, with no evidence beyond the guilty verdict, and people with inadequate representation. If you then remove those from this population, you are left asking - how many guilty verdicts are there where there is a massive paper trail, and eyewitness testimony agreeing with the defendant that they are guilty?

Even in the public domain, there was enough to assess that Cohen was very likely guilty.

The case is rather high profile, and will be subjected to a lot of scrutiny - which means that the judge is under pressure to get the judgement right. That does not include accepting guilty pleas for something that isn't a crime.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 24th August 2018 at 10:43 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:25 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.