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Old 29th October 2018, 08:56 PM   #281
Norman Alexander
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When someone makes something idiot-proof, someone else invents a dumber idiot.
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Old 31st October 2018, 06:10 PM   #282
arthwollipot
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Them: Hi, I started in the department today, and I'm trying to log on.

Me: Okay.

Them: ...

Them: ...

Them: ...

Me: Okay?

Them: ...

Them: ...

Them: ...

Me: Um, what are you asking me?
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Old 1st November 2018, 11:10 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Them: Hi, I started in the department today, and I'm trying to log on.

Me: Okay.

Them: ...

Them: ...

Them: ...

Me: Okay?

Them: ...

Them: ...

Them: ...

Me: Um, what are you asking me?
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Old 1st November 2018, 12:04 PM   #284
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Them: Hi, I started in the department today, and I'm trying to log on.

Me: Okay.

Them: ...

Them: ...

Them: ...

Me: Okay?

Them: ...

Them: ...

Them: ...

Me: Um, what are you asking me?
Ask if he knows how a phone works. And tell him you are not the voices in his head, so he doesn't have to tell you what he is doing right now.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 02:51 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Speaking with my consumer electronics design engineer hat on. Assuming "large number" means more than 0.5% then almost certainly that is either do to poor design of the phone hang up switch system or faulty hangup switches. I've thrown away or returned for credit many of phones over the last 40 years for those two reasons.
Our phones at the office had a handset that was slippy and thin, it could be hard to hold it firmly and not get your fingers in the way when trying to hang up.
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Old 4th November 2018, 03:50 PM   #286
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And it still surprises me that many staff do not know the process for requesting a password reset. And despite monthly email reminders, do not register for password self-service.
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Old 5th November 2018, 09:56 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And it still surprises me that many staff do not know the process for requesting a password reset. And despite monthly email reminders, do not register for password self-service.
About a year ago we started rejecting all password requests, giving the link to the self service tool as the rejection reason.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:03 AM   #288
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I think the simple fact that we as an industry are using passwords far, far, far beyond the point of diminishing returns on the "Security versus practicality" chart is sort of an open secret in the business right now.

Any password complex enough to be secure enough, a user is either going to constantly forget or they are going to write it down.
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:06 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think the simple fact that we as an industry are using passwords far, far, far beyond the point of diminishing returns on the "Security versus practicality" chart is sort of an open secret in the business right now.

Any password complex enough to be secure enough, a user is either going to constantly forget or they are going to write it down.
CorrectHorseBatteryStaple
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Old 5th November 2018, 10:09 AM   #290
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At <bigbank> they introduced a self-servicing ticket tool that you had to drill down through and the password option pointed you at the self service tool. Similarly the phone number for tickets would nag you to use the selfservice tool once you did the "press 2 for..." maze.

The biggest problem with that whole system was it was always set up to maximise the IT teams' KPIs rather than help the customer. So say you had 3 new joiners all needing email. You couldn't raise one ticket that could be split into 3 tasks. It had to be 3 tickets with no "copy details from". This wonderful book linky ( which I thoroughly recommend and have bought extra copies to give away) refers to it as "displaced complexity". You make your task easier by shoving the complexity elsewhere.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:40 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
CorrectHorseBatteryStaple

You realize you remembered that incorrectly?
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:51 AM   #292
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LastPass or KeePass o a similar password manager.



My personal database has 478 entries, almost none duplicates.


Problem solved.
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Old 5th November 2018, 11:54 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
LastPass or KeePass o a similar password manager.



My personal database has 478 entries, almost none duplicates.


Problem solved.
That's great if you literally never have to log into a new device ever.
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:23 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's great if you literally never have to log into a new device ever.
I don't know. On my home network I have perfect password printed out on a crinkly old piece of printer paper which already had something printed on it. It's the last page on my printers stack*. When friends come over and want to use my Network I give them the piece of paper and tell them not to make any mistakes. Hilarity ensues.


*so now you know!
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Old 5th November 2018, 12:51 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You realize you remembered that incorrectly?
Nope. I used camelCase in this thread to make it more legible to the unitiated. Capitalization doesn't actually change the underlying principle in the slightest.

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/936/

ETA: The point is that a string of four arbitrary words is both easier for a human to remember and harder for a computer to guess through brute force, than a password that conforms to a set of "difficulty" requirements like one cap, one special char, etc.

Last edited by theprestige; 5th November 2018 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:08 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nope. I used camelCase in this thread to make it more legible to the unitiated. Capitalization doesn't actually change the underlying principle in the slightest.

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/936/

ETA: The point is that a string of four arbitrary words is both easier for a human to remember and harder for a computer to guess through brute force, than a password that conforms to a set of "difficulty" requirements like one cap, one special char, etc.
You could also write out the first letter of every word on a piece of paper in case you forget the password. It ain't like your colleagues are going to go to the trouble of trying to figure it out. They know it's probably something about your password - but who cares?*


*assuming your working in a normal business environment, of course.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:10 PM   #297
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nope. I used camelCase in this thread to make it more legible to the unitiated. Capitalization doesn't actually change the underlying principle in the slightest.

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/936/

ETA: The point is that a string of four arbitrary words is both easier for a human to remember and harder for a computer to guess through brute force, than a password that conforms to a set of "difficulty" requirements like one cap, one special char, etc.
Yeah, I get that. The principle is the same. But spacing and capitalization make a difference to whether you've actually remembered the password/phrase correctly.
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Old 5th November 2018, 01:27 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yeah, I get that. The principle is the same. But spacing and capitalization make a difference to whether you've actually remembered the password/phrase correctly.
Yes they do.

However, my choice to capitalize in this case does not actually justify your assumption that I misremembered the password.

Also, a rule like "I never put caps or spaces in my password" is a lot easier to remember than "One cap, one special char, and one number, unless it's the bank, and then it's cap and char only, unless it's the other bank, and then it's char and number or cap, etc."

So once I'm allowed to use Munroe passwords, I'll have much fewer, much easier rules to remember anyway. Which is half the point of Munroe passwords.
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:31 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's great if you literally never have to log into a new device ever.



If I have to log in to a new device, I set up a new entry in the database. Why is this difficult?
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Old 5th November 2018, 02:53 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
LastPass or KeePass o a similar password manager.



My personal database has 478 entries, almost none duplicates.


Problem solved.
That's great when you're working on your own computer, not so much when you're working with an 8,000-user government secure network where installation of unapproved software is prohibited by law and system policy.

I use LastPass myself. On my private, personally-owned devices.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:06 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
If I have to log in to a new device, I set up a new entry in the database. Why is this difficult?
Well if every device you have to login to has access to this database bully for you I guess.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:57 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well if every device you have to login to has access to this database bully for you I guess.
It's a browser plugin/app that has access to the database and supplies the appropriate password when you connect to the site that needs it.

You're going out of your way to **** on stuff you don't know about. You're also being kind of insulting to your fellow Member.
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Old 5th November 2018, 04:59 PM   #303
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Now now let's not get salty.
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Old 5th November 2018, 05:07 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Now now let's not get salty.
I'm just asking Joe to give the saltshaker a bit of a rest.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:10 PM   #305
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Joe, my original comment wasn't intended to be salty, but I understand how you could take it that way.

The exchange did get out of hand a bit, partly because I didn't explain that KeePass, my preferred software, is a stand-alone program that encrypts its database, allows access to the program only by password, and doesn't depend on any particular browser.

Arth, yes, if you're working on a large system such as you describe, neither LastPass nor KeePass will work. On the other hand, as a sysadmin you have other methods of resetting passwords, even if only through AD.


EDIT KeePass Password Safe
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Last edited by xterra; 5th November 2018 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:53 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Joe, my original comment wasn't intended to be salty, but I understand how you could take it that way.

The exchange did get out of hand a bit, partly because I didn't explain that KeePass, my preferred software, is a stand-alone program that encrypts its database, allows access to the program only by password, and doesn't depend on any particular browser.

Arth, yes, if you're working on a large system such as you describe, neither LastPass nor KeePass will work. On the other hand, as a sysadmin you have other methods of resetting passwords, even if only through AD.
Yes, the problem is that we have and always have had a procedure in place to ensure that any caller asking for a password reset is actually that person and not someone else just pretending to be them. This procedure should be common knowledge, but we still have to explain it to callers every day.
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Old 5th November 2018, 08:54 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, the problem is that we have and always have had a procedure in place to ensure that any caller asking for a password reset is actually that person and not someone else just pretending to be them. This procedure should be common knowledge, but we still have to explain it to callers every day.
Could you change my password, please? Username is ARTHWOLLIPOT.
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:33 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's great when you're working on your own computer, not so much when you're working with an 8,000-user government secure network where installation of unapproved software is prohibited by law and system policy.

I use LastPass myself. On my private, personally-owned devices.
Despite having been a pentester with IBM, writing part of an IBM security manual, designing security for several systems, I hated dealing with certain aspects of security.
<big bank> security insisted every password on every system had to be different and changed every 30 (later 90) days. We had over 20,000 windows servers and they were considered niche only. Standard servers were unix-variants. We weren't to write them down or store them in any way. Complaints that it was easy for someone in IT ops to have hundreds, if not thousands, of systems to access were brushed off.

On one internal system just used to store models of services for problem triage the vendor product required the tool be able to modify the DB schema (create tables etc). Big problem. Only DBAs can modify the schema. Big security & performance risk apparently if DB drones don't read from a ticket and write DDL exactly as requested on the ticket. So I had to devise a system where the tool knew an admin password but I didn't, using CA's Automation Point (which a more cynical person than I might describe as a POS and about as secure as a paper mache fireguard but had been selected by a supposed SME who knew sod all about anything not written by CA). I'd have preferred to install something else but my previous request for approval of software was still in the assessment queue 3 years later.

When I left there were some trading areas where IT staff had management backing from on high to tell security to F off and sort themselves out but it was still dominated by people who could say "no" but not "yes" and were never held to task. Mordac the Refuser.
If a problem was caused (or included) someone writing down a password or using a guessable one, not their fault. If there was an issue because the only way to square their circle was using a weak solution, not their problem.

.....and breathe.
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:40 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think the simple fact that we as an industry are using passwords far, far, far beyond the point of diminishing returns on the "Security versus practicality" chart is sort of an open secret in the business right now.

Any password complex enough to be secure enough, a user is either going to constantly forget or they are going to write it down.
Biometrics.
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:45 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And it still surprises me that many staff do not know the process for requesting a password reset. And despite monthly email reminders, do not register for password self-service.
Have you tried making them come to IT with company ID? For security purposes.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 10th November 2018, 06:56 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Could you change my password, please? Username is ARTHWOLLIPOT.
Done.
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Old 11th November 2018, 05:27 PM   #312
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Just had someone end a call by telling me that they learned something.

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Old 11th November 2018, 07:07 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Done.
Hey! I can't log into Arth's...sorry, MY ISF account now! Windows is broken!
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Old 11th November 2018, 08:18 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Hey! I can't log into Arth's...sorry, MY ISF account now! Windows is broken!
Do you need someone to reinstall your Adobe?
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Old 11th November 2018, 09:18 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just had someone end a call by telling me that they learned something.



This never happens. You obviously misunderstood what the person was saying.
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Old 11th November 2018, 09:57 PM   #316
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
This never happens. You obviously misunderstood what the person was saying.
I was explaining what Bitlocker was.
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Old 11th November 2018, 11:30 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you need someone to reinstall your Adobe?
Yes please. I want my Adobe Excel fixed.
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Old 11th November 2018, 11:50 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Yes please. I want my Adobe Excel fixed.
And how's your Microsoft? All doing well?
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Old 12th November 2018, 03:17 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just had someone end a call by telling me that they learned something.

https://media.giphy.com/media/nXxOjZrbnbRxS/giphy.gif
My boss used to do a "TILT" at the end of the day (things I learned today). It didn't last long because he mostly learned that no one checked the channel in slack he was posting it in because the only thing going in there were his TILTs.

On a completely different note, we use LastPass as a company. It's ******* slick as hell when you're in my role. We do end to end tech support for something like 70 companies. I put the app on my phone, and I can page through every company at my finger tips. If you couple it with 2FA it gets rid of pretty much every security flaw as well. I was hesitant at first, but now I absolutely love it.
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Old 12th November 2018, 04:53 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And how's your Microsoft? All doing well?
Yes, Microsoft Ubuntu is going well.
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