Dear Users... (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) - Page 9

arthwollipot · 12th November 2018, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

My boss used to do a "TILT" at the end of the day (things I learned today). It didn't last long because he mostly learned that no one checked the channel in slack he was posting it in because the only thing going in there were his TILTs.

On a completely different note, we use LastPass as a company. It's ******* slick as hell when you're in my role. We do end to end tech support for something like 70 companies. I put the app on my phone, and I can page through every company at my finger tips. If you couple it with 2FA it gets rid of pretty much every security flaw as well. I was hesitant at first, but now I absolutely love it.

I believe you. Like I said, I use LastPass myself and I'd love to be able to have it on my work machine. But even if we did have it across the enterprise, there would be people who wouldn't use it because they have entirely the wrong idea about how IT security works.

plague311 · 12th November 2018, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I believe you. Like I said, I use LastPass myself and I'd love to be able to have it on my work machine. But even if we did have it across the enterprise, there would be people who wouldn't use it because they have entirely the wrong idea about how IT security works.

Truer words have not been spoken.

Yeah, doing it across an enterprise would be a nightmare. We have somewhere in the neighborhood of 50ish employees, 40 of them that probably regularly use LastPass, so it was an easy switch. We use it for almost everything too. Network infrastructure notes, domain creds, pretty much anything relevant.

arthwollipot · 12th November 2018, 06:28 PM

I dream of working in an environment like that.

novaphile · 12th November 2018, 08:56 PM

I use KeePass because it appears to be utterly platform independent.

(i.e. same software on linux, windows, etc.)

I watch my team fumbling with passwords etc. every day, and I just can't persuade them to use it. Even though it is a supported app on our SOE.

xterra · 13th November 2018, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

I use KeePass ....

I watch my team fumbling with passwords etc. every day, and I just can't persuade them to use it. Even though it is a supported app on our SOE.

I have the same problem with family and friends: Explain KeePass, set it up for them, add a couple of entries, show them the auto-type feature (which is usually but not always wonderful).

Then later find that they're still (a) ignoring KeePass and (b) complaining about having to remember sooo many passwords.

JoeMorgue · 14th November 2018, 07:31 AM

Dear Users.

Working for a VIP does not make you a VIP.

Doing a job for a VIP does not make you a VIP.

Our SLA with your company has a number of VIP clients; doctors and higher level executives, who pay more for faster service. That's literally what the SLA does.

You don't automatically get faster service you aren't paying for because you're "doing a job for a VIP."

Your company has a hierarchical structure. Everybody is doing their job for a VIP.

Dancing David · 14th November 2018, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Dear Users.

Working for a VIP does not make you a VIP.

Doing a job for a VIP does not make you a VIP.

Our SLA with your company has a number of VIP clients; doctors and higher level executives, who pay more for faster service. That's literally what the SLA does.

You don't automatically get faster service you aren't paying for because you're "doing a job for a VIP."

Your company has a hierarchical structure. Everybody is doing their job for a VIP.

Ha ha ha,
Too true, however people who work for Director, Assistant Superintendent, Deputy Superintendent, Superintendent or Executive Director are more VIP than others!

arthwollipot · 14th November 2018, 07:17 PM

Yup. We have people who are specifically marked for VIP service, and if you don't have the mark, I don't care who you are. We do jobs in the order in which they are received.

Wudang · 15th November 2018, 04:07 AM

One of the better BOFH tales https://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/0...fh_episode_24/

JoeMorgue · 19th November 2018, 11:39 AM

Dear Helpdesk:

Southside, Southpoint, and Baptist South are not the same location. I have clients at all three of these. Saying there's a problem "At the South location" isn't overly useful information to put in a ticket.

arthwollipot · 19th November 2018, 04:50 PM

Caller: Is a police records check necessary for building and IT access for contractors? I have someone starting tomorrow who doesn't have one.

Me: Yes, a police records check is necessary.

Caller: But they're starting tomorrow!

Me: No, they're not.

Dancing David · 20th November 2018, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Caller: Is a police records check necessary for building and IT access for contractors? I have someone starting tomorrow who doesn't have one.

Me: Yes, a police records check is necessary.

Caller: But they're starting tomorrow!

Me: No, they're not.

Yup, some people don't understand

theprestige · 20th November 2018, 11:08 AM

USER: I need you to provide me with X, via your Service.

ME: As you know from administering your own instance of Service, I can't provide X until you give me the details for Y and Z which are contained in X. And as you also know, I can't provide Z until you give me the details for A, B, and C, which are contained in Z.

[time passes]

USER: I'm still waiting on Z.

Contrast with:

UNICORN: I know from my own time as a Service admin that the following information will ensure you provide me with X via your Service:
- A, B, and C contained in Z
- Y and Z contained in X
Thanks in advance!

ME: Done and done!

arthwollipot · 22nd November 2018, 05:02 PM

We've been having an interesting series of calls over the last week that has destroyed one of our standard narratives.

Caller: Hi, I'm getting [x problem]. Is it Russian hackers?
Agent: *sigh* No, it's not Russian hackers.

Well, we've been having a problem where some people are seeing their Intranet home page firewalled, displaying a Cyrillic address.

It's totally Russian hackers.

Norman Alexander · 22nd November 2018, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

We've been having an interesting series of calls over the last week that has destroyed one of our standard narratives.

Caller: Hi, I'm getting [x problem]. Is it Russian hackers?
Agent: *sigh* No, it's not Russian hackers.

Well, we've been having a problem where some people are seeing their Intranet home page firewalled, displaying a Cyrillic address.

It's totally Russian hackers.

Nah. It's more likely hackers from any other country who can post in Cyrillic. That is, all the rest of the world.

arthwollipot · 22nd November 2018, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Nah. It's more likely hackers from any other country who can post in Cyrillic. That is, all the rest of the world.

Tell that to the person who is convinced that every computer problem is the fault of Russian hackers.

It used to be viruses. I still get the occasional call from someone who says "I can't get into Outlook. Have I got a virus?"

* arthwollipot goes into Task Manager, ends the stray process, restarts Outlook.

"No, you don't have a virus. First, viruses don't do this. Second, we're protected against them by multiple layers of security. This was just a crash."

Norman Alexander · 22nd November 2018, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Tell that to the person who is convinced that every computer problem is the fault of Russian hackers.

You can always say "Yes, it's Russian hackers. And remember, 1000 Russian rubles is only AUS$20. So the easiest way to fix this is for you to send me the ransom money and I will pay them to take the hack off."

Quote:

It used to be viruses. I still get the occasional call from someone who says "I can't get into Outlook. Have I got a virus?"

* arthwollipot;12511537 goes into Task Manager, ends the stray process, restarts Outlook.

"No, you don't have a virus. First, viruses don't do this. Second, we're protected against them by multiple layers of security. This was just a crash."

Ditto stray Firefox processes stopping the browser restarting properly.

arthwollipot · 22nd November 2018, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Ditto stray Firefox processes stopping the browser restarting properly.

Hell, it happens to all of them. IE, Word, Excel, I've even done it for PowerPoint.

Just wanna say, Skype for Business can be a pain in the arse.

novaphile · 23rd November 2018, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Hell, it happens to all of them. IE, Word, Excel, I've even done it for PowerPoint.

Just wanna say, Skype for Business can be a pain in the arse.

May I point out that "all of them" seem to be Microsoft products, which they recently bought and apparently broke.

paulhutch · 25th November 2018, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

May I point out that "all of them" seem to be Microsoft products, which they recently bought and apparently broke.

Nope, three are Microsoft originals, one was bought 20 years ago and the other 7 years ago.

Word written by Microsoft 1983.
Excel written by Microsoft 1987.
Powerpoint purchased in 1987.
IE written by Microsoft 1994. (some code licensed from Spyglass Mosaic.)
Skype purchased in 2011.

arthwollipot · 25th November 2018, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

May I point out that "all of them" seem to be Microsoft products, which they recently bought and apparently broke.

I've had it occur with Chrome too.

Darat · 26th November 2018, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Tell that to the person who is convinced that every computer problem is the fault of Russian hackers.

It used to be viruses. I still get the occasional call from someone who says "I can't get into Outlook. Have I got a virus?"

* arthwollipot;12511537 goes into Task Manager, ends the stray process, restarts Outlook.

"No, you don't have a virus. First, viruses don't do this. Second, we're protected against them by multiple layers of security. This was just a crash."

The classic is the "I've got a virus, there are squiggly red lines under my wordz...."

Darat · 26th November 2018, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've had it occur with Chrome too.

It's more than likely to happen to any complex business standard program - sorry - application.

Dancing David · 26th November 2018, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've had it occur with Chrome too.

Recently I have even seen it in Adobe Reader ...

Norman Alexander · 27th November 2018, 06:45 PM

Seems all these apps/programs have one thing in common...

arthwollipot · 27th November 2018, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Seems all these apps/programs have one thing in common...

Yeah, they run on Windows.

Honestly, we have some 8000 users across something like 14 government agencies. I am one of twelve to fifteen agents (depending on the day), and I get a call like this maybe once a day at most. On average, that's not too bad.

Sucks when it happens to you, though.

arthwollipot · 27th November 2018, 08:19 PM

Me: Do the thing, and it will produce this result.

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Me: It will.

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Me: IT WILL.

Them: ...

Me: ...

Them: But what if it doesn't?

TheGnome · 27th November 2018, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Me: Do the thing, and it will produce this result.

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Me: It will.

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Me: IT WILL.

Them: ...

Me: ...

Them: But what if it doesn't?

This strikes me as a bit weird.

Your customer is asking a perfectly legitimate question IMO and you're just refusing to answer it. Have you never been wrong?

To me that just does not look like the behaviour of a competent helpdesk operator. I think I would get angry if you did that to me.

paulhutch · 28th November 2018, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by TheGnome

This strikes me as a bit weird.

Your customer is asking a perfectly legitimate question IMO and you're just refusing to answer it. Have you never been wrong?

To me that just does not look like the behaviour of a competent helpdesk operator. I think I would get angry if you did that to me.

I agree, at my organization it gets you retraining on the proper way to do customer service. An example response we would give in training is, "It has always worked before but if it does not work this time we will work out something else to try".

CORed · 28th November 2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Me: Do the thing, and it will produce this result.

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Me: It will.

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Me: IT WILL.

Them: ...

Me: ...

Them: But what if it doesn't?

Originally Posted by TheGnome

This strikes me as a bit weird.

Your customer is asking a perfectly legitimate question IMO and you're just refusing to answer it. Have you never been wrong?

To me that just does not look like the behaviour of a competent helpdesk operator. I think I would get angry if you did that to me.

Originally Posted by paulhutch

I agree, at my organization it gets you retraining on the proper way to do customer service. An example response we would give in training is, "It has always worked before but if it does not work this time we will work out something else to try".

If I'm the customer, I think I would try what the helpdesk person recommended and see if it works, rather than worry about, "What if it doesn't work?". Unless of course, I had good reason to believe that the recommended action would be harmful. Once I do it, it either works or it doesn't, and I don't need to worry about "what ifs".

Dancing David · 28th November 2018, 12:45 PM

I hope Arthwollipot is exaggerating for effect, the standard answer is 'then we can see what can be done to fix it".

However I do know the feeling as a help desk person, part of the experience is in helping people cope with an anxious situation, even if the anxiety is unwarranted. I have in remote sessions spent 15 minutes watching some one demonstrate to their satisfaction that the issue is resolved. Even after the evidence of the first minute would indicate that the issue is resolved, they have wanted me to stay on the line while they repeat steps that continue to confirm that the issue was resolved.

JoeMorgue · 28th November 2018, 01:26 PM

The problem is people are just... well scared of computers in a way they aren't of cars or their washing machines or whatnot.

Imagine being a mechanic and have a car owner nervously stand over you asking over and over if you're sure, I mean 100% sure that changing your radio presets won't make the gas tank explode and you're in the ballpark.

"I demand you fix this problem I'm having without touching or doing anything because I'm afraid if this one Window is closed it will never come back ever" is a thing we have to deal with.

zooterkin · 28th November 2018, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

If I'm the customer, I think I would try what the helpdesk person recommended and see if it works, rather than worry about, "What if it doesn't work?". Unless of course, I had good reason to believe that the recommended action would be harmful. Once I do it, it either works or it doesn't, and I don't need to worry about "what ifs".

The thinking I'm assuming is that they've probably had to wait for this suggestion, and if they try this action and it doesn't work, they're back at the end of the queue again; they want to know how to deal with any failure of the action plan immediately.

I've been in the middle of this situation many times; an action plan from the lab team which assumes the fix will work, while the customer (or often a field engineer) has experience that suggests it may well not, and they don't want to wait the couple of days or more to know what to do next. Often we're talking about a remote site with significant travel time, so any delay is a real pain.

This probably doesn't fit what arthwollipot is talking about, but it is a real concern in some cases.

arthwollipot · 28th November 2018, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

I hope Arthwollipot is exaggerating for effect, the standard answer is 'then we can see what can be done to fix it".

Yes, I was, but the thing I was referring to was receiving an autoreply when sending email to the Service Desk. It's a purely mechanical response that happens automatically. It just doesn't not work. If you don't get an autoreply, you've sent your email to the wrong address.

arthwollipot · 28th November 2018, 06:09 PM

Here's one that annoys me. We receive an email - which is already not a good idea for urgent jobs - saying that they have a particular problem. I have a fix, which they can perform themself, and I also know that I (or another agent) will need to remote access the workstation if it doesn't work. So I send them an email reply saying "Please do [blah], and if you're still having a problem after doing this, phone the service desk on the following number". Almost immediately another email arrives saying "Yes, I've already done that."

So now my question becomes - do I send another email saying "Please phone the service desk on the following number"? I really want to. I really really want to.

But I won't. I'll phone them. Because of course I will.

theprestige · 28th November 2018, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The problem is people are just... well scared of computers in a way they aren't of cars or their washing machines or whatnot.

Imagine being a mechanic and have a car owner nervously stand over you asking over and over if you're sure, I mean 100% sure that changing your radio presets won't make the gas tank explode and you're in the ballpark.

"I demand you fix this problem I'm having without touching or doing anything because I'm afraid if this one Window is closed it will never come back ever" is a thing we have to deal with.

I suspect that a lot of people aren't scared of computers, really. They just *think* they are.

And we now have a generation of grown-ass people who have had computers for more of their lives than not, who still profess an absurd degree of computer incompetence.

JoeMorgue · 28th November 2018, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I suspect that a lot of people aren't scared of computers, really. They just *think* they are.

And we now have a generation of grown-ass people who have had computers for more of their lives than not, who still profess an absurd degree of computer incompetence.

I think you're correct. We've let the "Oh I'm just not a computer person" become a sort of self sustaining meme / self fulfilling prophecy.

arthwollipot · 28th November 2018, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I think you're correct. We've let the "Oh I'm just not a computer person" become a sort of self sustaining meme / self fulfilling prophecy.

Like "Oh I'm terrible at math(s)".

xterra · 28th November 2018, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

So now my question becomes - do I send another email saying "Please phone the service desk on the following number"? I really want to. I really really want to.

But I won't. I'll phone them. Because of course I will.

No, you reply to their email by asking "Did [blah] work?

EDIT: If they say it did work, you then use the Darat manoeuvre:

Question answered, thread closed.

arthwollipot · 28th November 2018, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by xterra

No, you reply to their email by asking "Did [blah] work?

EDIT: If they say it did work, you then use the Darat manoeuvre:

Question answered, thread closed.

Yes, I often use that manoeuvre.

I called. They weren't there, so I left a message. I assume they called back and someone helped them because the job isn't in the Pending queue.

12th November 2018, 06:10 PM	#321
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by plague311 My boss used to do a "TILT" at the end of the day (things I learned today). It didn't last long because he mostly learned that no one checked the channel in slack he was posting it in because the only thing going in there were his TILTs. On a completely different note, we use LastPass as a company. It's ******* slick as hell when you're in my role. We do end to end tech support for something like 70 companies. I put the app on my phone, and I can page through every company at my finger tips. If you couple it with 2FA it gets rid of pretty much every security flaw as well. I was hesitant at first, but now I absolutely love it. I believe you. Like I said, I use LastPass myself and I'd love to be able to have it on my work machine. But even if we did have it across the enterprise, there would be people who wouldn't use it because they have entirely the wrong idea about how IT security works.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

12th November 2018, 06:22 PM	#322
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 5,017	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I believe you. Like I said, I use LastPass myself and I'd love to be able to have it on my work machine. But even if we did have it across the enterprise, there would be people who wouldn't use it because they have entirely the wrong idea about how IT security works. Truer words have not been spoken. Yeah, doing it across an enterprise would be a nightmare. We have somewhere in the neighborhood of 50ish employees, 40 of them that probably regularly use LastPass, so it was an easy switch. We use it for almost everything too. Network infrastructure notes, domain creds, pretty much anything relevant.
	__________________ "All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

12th November 2018, 06:28 PM	#323
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	I dream of working in an environment like that.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

12th November 2018, 08:56 PM	#324
novaphile Quester of Doglets Moderator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,811	I use KeePass because it appears to be utterly platform independent. (i.e. same software on linux, windows, etc.) I watch my team fumbling with passwords etc. every day, and I just can't persuade them to use it. Even though it is a supported app on our SOE.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

13th November 2018, 08:42 AM	#325
xterra So far, so good... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 3,159	Originally Posted by novaphile I use KeePass .... I watch my team fumbling with passwords etc. every day, and I just can't persuade them to use it. Even though it is a supported app on our SOE. I have the same problem with family and friends: Explain KeePass, set it up for them, add a couple of entries, show them the auto-type feature (which is usually but not always wonderful). Then later find that they're still (a) ignoring KeePass and (b) complaining about having to remember sooo many passwords.
	__________________ Over we go....

14th November 2018, 07:31 AM	#326
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,552	Dear Users. Working for a VIP does not make you a VIP. Doing a job for a VIP does not make you a VIP. Our SLA with your company has a number of VIP clients; doctors and higher level executives, who pay more for faster service. That's literally what the SLA does. You don't automatically get faster service you aren't paying for because you're "doing a job for a VIP." Your company has a hierarchical structure. Everybody is doing their job for a VIP.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

14th November 2018, 12:17 PM	#327
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central Illinois Posts: 39,552	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Dear Users. Working for a VIP does not make you a VIP. Doing a job for a VIP does not make you a VIP. Our SLA with your company has a number of VIP clients; doctors and higher level executives, who pay more for faster service. That's literally what the SLA does. You don't automatically get faster service you aren't paying for because you're "doing a job for a VIP." Your company has a hierarchical structure. Everybody is doing their job for a VIP. Ha ha ha, Too true, however people who work for Director, Assistant Superintendent, Deputy Superintendent, Superintendent or Executive Director are more VIP than others!
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

14th November 2018, 07:17 PM	#328
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Yup. We have people who are specifically marked for VIP service, and if you don't have the mark, I don't care who you are. We do jobs in the order in which they are received.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

15th November 2018, 04:07 AM	#329
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 11,603	One of the better BOFH tales https://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/0...fh_episode_24/

19th November 2018, 11:39 AM	#330
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,552	Dear Helpdesk: Southside, Southpoint, and Baptist South are not the same location. I have clients at all three of these. Saying there's a problem "At the South location" isn't overly useful information to put in a ticket.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

19th November 2018, 04:50 PM	#331
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Caller: Is a police records check necessary for building and IT access for contractors? I have someone starting tomorrow who doesn't have one. Me: Yes, a police records check is necessary. Caller: But they're starting tomorrow! Me: No, they're not.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

20th November 2018, 10:16 AM	#332
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central Illinois Posts: 39,552	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Caller: Is a police records check necessary for building and IT access for contractors? I have someone starting tomorrow who doesn't have one. Me: Yes, a police records check is necessary. Caller: But they're starting tomorrow! Me: No, they're not. Yup, some people don't understand
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

20th November 2018, 11:08 AM	#333
theprestige Penultimate Amazing TLA Winner Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 34,099	USER: I need you to provide me with X, via your Service. ME: As you know from administering your own instance of Service, I can't provide X until you give me the details for Y and Z which are contained in X. And as you also know, I can't provide Z until you give me the details for A, B, and C, which are contained in Z. [time passes] USER: I'm still waiting on Z. Contrast with: UNICORN: I know from my own time as a Service admin that the following information will ensure you provide me with X via your Service: - A, B, and C contained in Z - Y and Z contained in X Thanks in advance! ME: Done and done!
	Last edited by theprestige; 20th November 2018 at 11:10 AM.

22nd November 2018, 05:02 PM	#334
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	We've been having an interesting series of calls over the last week that has destroyed one of our standard narratives. Caller: Hi, I'm getting [x problem]. Is it Russian hackers? Agent: sigh No, it's not Russian hackers. Well, we've been having a problem where some people are seeing their Intranet home page firewalled, displaying a Cyrillic address. It's totally Russian hackers.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

22nd November 2018, 07:28 PM	#335
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,206	Originally Posted by arthwollipot We've been having an interesting series of calls over the last week that has destroyed one of our standard narratives. Caller: Hi, I'm getting [x problem]. Is it Russian hackers? Agent: sigh No, it's not Russian hackers. Well, we've been having a problem where some people are seeing their Intranet home page firewalled, displaying a Cyrillic address. It's totally Russian hackers. Nah. It's more likely hackers from any other country who can post in Cyrillic. That is, all the rest of the world.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

22nd November 2018, 07:34 PM	#336
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Nah. It's more likely hackers from any other country who can post in Cyrillic. That is, all the rest of the world. Tell that to the person who is convinced that every computer problem is the fault of Russian hackers. It used to be viruses. I still get the occasional call from someone who says "I can't get into Outlook. Have I got a virus?" * arthwollipot goes into Task Manager, ends the stray process, restarts Outlook. "No, you don't have a virus. First, viruses don't do this. Second, we're protected against them by multiple layers of security. This was just a crash."
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

22nd November 2018, 07:40 PM	#337
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,206	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Tell that to the person who is convinced that every computer problem is the fault of Russian hackers. You can always say "Yes, it's Russian hackers. And remember, 1000 Russian rubles is only AUS$20. So the easiest way to fix this is for you to send me the ransom money and I will pay them to take the hack off." Quote: It used to be viruses. I still get the occasional call from someone who says "I can't get into Outlook. Have I got a virus?" * arthwollipot;12511537 goes into Task Manager, ends the stray process, restarts Outlook. "No, you don't have a virus. First, viruses don't do this. Second, we're protected against them by multiple layers of security. This was just a crash." Ditto stray Firefox processes stopping the browser restarting properly.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

22nd November 2018, 07:44 PM	#338
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Ditto stray Firefox processes stopping the browser restarting properly. Hell, it happens to all of them. IE, Word, Excel, I've even done it for PowerPoint. Just wanna say, Skype for Business can be a pain in the arse.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

23rd November 2018, 08:05 PM	#339
novaphile Quester of Doglets Moderator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,811	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Hell, it happens to all of them. IE, Word, Excel, I've even done it for PowerPoint. Just wanna say, Skype for Business can be a pain in the arse. May I point out that "all of them" seem to be Microsoft products, which they recently bought and apparently broke.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

25th November 2018, 07:11 AM	#340
paulhutch Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA Posts: 2,298	Originally Posted by novaphile May I point out that "all of them" seem to be Microsoft products, which they recently bought and apparently broke. Nope, three are Microsoft originals, one was bought 20 years ago and the other 7 years ago. Word written by Microsoft 1983. Excel written by Microsoft 1987. Powerpoint purchased in 1987. IE written by Microsoft 1994. (some code licensed from Spyglass Mosaic.) Skype purchased in 2011.

25th November 2018, 05:17 PM	#341
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by novaphile May I point out that "all of them" seem to be Microsoft products, which they recently bought and apparently broke. I've had it occur with Chrome too.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

26th November 2018, 01:16 AM	#342
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 85,710	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Tell that to the person who is convinced that every computer problem is the fault of Russian hackers. It used to be viruses. I still get the occasional call from someone who says "I can't get into Outlook. Have I got a virus?" * arthwollipot;12511537 goes into Task Manager, ends the stray process, restarts Outlook. "No, you don't have a virus. First, viruses don't do this. Second, we're protected against them by multiple layers of security. This was just a crash." The classic is the "I've got a virus, there are squiggly red lines under my wordz...."
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

26th November 2018, 01:19 AM	#343
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 85,710	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've had it occur with Chrome too. It's more than likely to happen to any complex business standard program - sorry - application.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

26th November 2018, 12:20 PM	#344
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central Illinois Posts: 39,552	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've had it occur with Chrome too. Recently I have even seen it in Adobe Reader ...
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

27th November 2018, 06:45 PM	#345
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,206	Seems all these apps/programs have one thing in common...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

27th November 2018, 07:49 PM	#346
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Seems all these apps/programs have one thing in common... Yeah, they run on Windows. Honestly, we have some 8000 users across something like 14 government agencies. I am one of twelve to fifteen agents (depending on the day), and I get a call like this maybe once a day at most. On average, that's not too bad. Sucks when it happens to you, though.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

27th November 2018, 08:19 PM	#347
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Me: Do the thing, and it will produce this result. Them: But what if it doesn't? Me: It will. Them: But what if it doesn't? Me: IT WILL. Them: ... Me: ... Them: But what if it doesn't?
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

27th November 2018, 10:23 PM	#348
TheGnome Thinker Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Bern, Switzerland Posts: 179	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Me: Do the thing, and it will produce this result. Them: But what if it doesn't? Me: It will. Them: But what if it doesn't? Me: IT WILL. Them: ... Me: ... Them: But what if it doesn't? This strikes me as a bit weird. Your customer is asking a perfectly legitimate question IMO and you're just refusing to answer it. Have you never been wrong? To me that just does not look like the behaviour of a competent helpdesk operator. I think I would get angry if you did that to me.

28th November 2018, 09:34 AM	#349
paulhutch Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA Posts: 2,298	Originally Posted by TheGnome This strikes me as a bit weird. Your customer is asking a perfectly legitimate question IMO and you're just refusing to answer it. Have you never been wrong? To me that just does not look like the behaviour of a competent helpdesk operator. I think I would get angry if you did that to me. I agree, at my organization it gets you retraining on the proper way to do customer service. An example response we would give in training is, "It has always worked before but if it does not work this time we will work out something else to try".

28th November 2018, 11:34 AM	#350
CORed Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 8,667	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Me: Do the thing, and it will produce this result. Them: But what if it doesn't? Me: It will. Them: But what if it doesn't? Me: IT WILL. Them: ... Me: ... Them: But what if it doesn't? Originally Posted by TheGnome This strikes me as a bit weird. Your customer is asking a perfectly legitimate question IMO and you're just refusing to answer it. Have you never been wrong? To me that just does not look like the behaviour of a competent helpdesk operator. I think I would get angry if you did that to me. Originally Posted by paulhutch I agree, at my organization it gets you retraining on the proper way to do customer service. An example response we would give in training is, "It has always worked before but if it does not work this time we will work out something else to try". If I'm the customer, I think I would try what the helpdesk person recommended and see if it works, rather than worry about, "What if it doesn't work?". Unless of course, I had good reason to believe that the recommended action would be harmful. Once I do it, it either works or it doesn't, and I don't need to worry about "what ifs".

28th November 2018, 12:45 PM	#351
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central Illinois Posts: 39,552	I hope Arthwollipot is exaggerating for effect, the standard answer is 'then we can see what can be done to fix it". However I do know the feeling as a help desk person, part of the experience is in helping people cope with an anxious situation, even if the anxiety is unwarranted. I have in remote sessions spent 15 minutes watching some one demonstrate to their satisfaction that the issue is resolved. Even after the evidence of the first minute would indicate that the issue is resolved, they have wanted me to stay on the line while they repeat steps that continue to confirm that the issue was resolved.
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

28th November 2018, 01:26 PM	#352
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 17,552	The problem is people are just... well scared of computers in a way they aren't of cars or their washing machines or whatnot. Imagine being a mechanic and have a car owner nervously stand over you asking over and over if you're sure, I mean 100% sure that changing your radio presets won't make the gas tank explode and you're in the ballpark. "I demand you fix this problem I'm having without touching or doing anything because I'm afraid if this one Window is closed it will never come back ever" is a thing we have to deal with.
	__________________ - "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

28th November 2018, 03:29 PM	#353
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 42,496	Originally Posted by CORed If I'm the customer, I think I would try what the helpdesk person recommended and see if it works, rather than worry about, "What if it doesn't work?". Unless of course, I had good reason to believe that the recommended action would be harmful. Once I do it, it either works or it doesn't, and I don't need to worry about "what ifs". The thinking I'm assuming is that they've probably had to wait for this suggestion, and if they try this action and it doesn't work, they're back at the end of the queue again; they want to know how to deal with any failure of the action plan immediately. I've been in the middle of this situation many times; an action plan from the lab team which assumes the fix will work, while the customer (or often a field engineer) has experience that suggests it may well not, and they don't want to wait the couple of days or more to know what to do next. Often we're talking about a remote site with significant travel time, so any delay is a real pain. This probably doesn't fit what arthwollipot is talking about, but it is a real concern in some cases.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

28th November 2018, 05:10 PM	#354
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Originally Posted by Dancing David I hope Arthwollipot is exaggerating for effect, the standard answer is 'then we can see what can be done to fix it". Yes, I was, but the thing I was referring to was receiving an autoreply when sending email to the Service Desk. It's a purely mechanical response that happens automatically. It just doesn't not work. If you don't get an autoreply, you've sent your email to the wrong address.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?

28th November 2018, 06:09 PM	#355
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 61,691	Here's one that annoys me. We receive an email - which is already not a good idea for urgent jobs - saying that they have a particular problem. I have a fix, which they can perform themself, and I also know that I (or another agent) will need to remote access the workstation if it doesn't work. So I send them an email reply saying "Please do [blah], and if you're still having a problem after doing this, phone the service desk on the following number". Almost immediately another email arrives saying "Yes, I've already done that." So now my question becomes - do I send another email saying "Please phone the service desk on the following number"? I really want to. I really really want to. But I won't. I'll phone them. Because of course I will.
	__________________ Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiarii?