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Old 6th September 2018, 12:52 PM   #201
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This Op-Ed just confirms what Bob Woodward has said in his new book, and really only confirms what the rest of us (at least those of us with any brains) have known for a long time... and that is Trump is a pathological liar, an angry, immature man-child, and is utterly incapable of of carrying out the duties and responsibilities of the Presidency.
Which is what real americans know we need.
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:52 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think we even have to trust.

This article may be offered as a window into the Trump administration, but I don't need to trust the claims of the article for it to have that effect. The administration response to the article paints a much more clear picture of the Trump administration than the article did. The claims in the article are beside the point, frankly.

Whether any single claim is true or false doesn't matter to me at all. That a person working at the white house would claim to have authored this article is enough. It speaks volumes about the people Trump has hired. Maybe Omarosa wasn't an anomaly, maybe she was the tip of the iceberg.

The best people.


Also, there is plenty of corroboration of some of the claims if you take the time to look for it.
Who at the White House has claimed to be the author?
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:56 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Oh, you found one bad article? What was it on, celebrity Gossip?
I’m betting he didn’t even read said article, just saw a Facebook meme about it.

Aaaand once again he pulled out the “but...but this is a skeptics forum!!!!” card again. Really tiresome.
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:59 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Whether any single claim is true or false doesn't matter to me at all. That a person working at the white house would claim to have authored this article is enough.
You may consider this a nitpick, but we do not know that the author works in the white house, nor did the NYT claim they did. The NYT merely described them as "a senior official in the Trump administration", which is actually a very broad category. That includes quite a lot of people in agencies who do not work in the white house, and it also includes a lot of people who were not appointed or chosen by Trump. It's worth pointing out that the author never claims to have personally interacted with Trump in any way.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:25 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That includes quite a lot of people in agencies who do not work in the white house, and it also includes a lot of people who were not appointed or chosen by Trump. It's worth pointing out that the author never claims to have personally interacted with Trump in any way.
He implies himself to be a Trump appointee by using the word "we" in that context.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:30 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who at the White House has claimed to be the author?
I hadn't properly accounted for the fact that the NYT was duped on this and Ziggurat's point that they may actually office elsewhere but have a lot of access to the white house:

Quote:
That a person who the NYT believes is working at the white housefor the administration would claim to have authored this article is enough.
ETA: surprised that is the sentence you both were attracted to.
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Last edited by Dr. Keith; 6th September 2018 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:36 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He implies himself to be a Trump appointee by using the word "we" in that context.
And maybe he is. But we don't know that, an implication isn't a claim, and the NYT doesn't say he is either.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:36 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Which is what real americans know we need.
On that, we can agree.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:42 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I hadn't properly accounted for the fact that the NYT was duped on this and Ziggurat's point that they may actually office elsewhere but have a lot of access to the white house:
Who said anything about the NYT being duped? I said that the NYT didn't claim that the author worked in the white house. The NYT didn't even claim that the author had a lot of access to the white house. Hell, neither the NYT nor the author actually claim that the author has even been inside the white house. Now, maybe they do work in the white house, maybe they're very close to the president, maybe the ambiguity is just to help protect their anonymity. But we don't know.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:57 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who said anything about the NYT being duped?
I think theprestige has posited that it is possible that the NYT was duped in some way or another.

Quote:
I said that the NYT didn't claim that the author worked in the white house. The NYT didn't even claim that the author had a lot of access to the white house. Hell, neither the NYT nor the author actually claim that the author has even been inside the white house. Now, maybe they do work in the white house, maybe they're very close to the president, maybe the ambiguity is just to help protect their anonymity. But we don't know.
And I said we don't need to know. The article is not important for the facts it lays out, it is important for how the Trump administration has reacted. Which, by the way, gives credence to the op-ed being true.

It could have been written by an intern for the NYT and it still has had the needed impact. Nonetheless, I think it was likely written by someone in the administration.
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Old 6th September 2018, 01:57 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or the author handed the text to a cut-out, who forwarded it to the New York Times under their own name. The editor would get in direct contact with the cut-out, who would claim to be the real author. The editor would have no way of knowing it was a trick.
Would a senior WH official act as a cutout in this way? No.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:02 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Anyone checked in to see what FoxNews has to say about it? Or are they covering Uranium 1 this week?
I'm not getting Fox at the moment but RT went on last night about Hillary being behind all the bots and trolls.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:02 PM   #213
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I noticed the op-ed author has various ways to address Trump. It didn't seem all that odd til it went back and forth a few times. (the writer does the same to Putin).

If I google the last few months, the top 3 results for "Mr. Trump" are all from the Opinion section of the NYT. So I think this anon writer was rewritten, NYT style, and we won't find him/her by looking at writing patterns.

All mentions of 'Trump" in order:

President Trump is facing a test to his presidency
bitterly divided over Mr. Trump’s leadership
thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses
President Trump’s impulses are generally anti-trade
trying to do what’s right even when Donald Trump won’t
President Trump shows a preference for autocrats
The bigger concern is not what Mr. Trump has done
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:03 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because publishing the op Ed is itself an act to undermine. They've just sent the White House into another paroxysm of paranoia, witch hunting, and backstabbing. The serpents are biting each other in a frenzy. Everyone knows the fastest path to rattle Trump's cage good and hard is to announce to the press that he's not in control of things. He's probably tripled his Diet Coke consumption to rehydrate from all the spittle he's lost from screaming in the last two days. Another couple of leaks and he'll need an IV drip!
Expect more rallies that Trump needs to ease his disturbed mind.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:06 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Which all leads me to wonder if the letter/op-ed piece could have been written by someone well outside the White House, with the simple intent of turning the knob up to eleven in an already paranoid Oval Office.
I know, that's crazy talk, never mind, forget I said it.
The Times said the source was
Quote:
a senior official in the Trump administration whose identity is known to us and whose job would be jeopardized by its disclosure.
Unless you are buying into the Trump propaganda that these sources are made of whole cloth, the op ed is legit. Now whether it's this guy alone or that there are others depends on the cred of the op ed author.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:10 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Trump's lunatic base already believed that 100%. It's not going to serve to get them to the polls for the midterms, especially since it paints a picture of all those other non-Trump republicans being in agreement that Trump is bad.

I don't see the behavior of his base changing at all, in any way as a result of the letter.
No, they'll just fit it into a pigeon hole in their deep state beliefs.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:18 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Then don't believe it. Take it with a grain of salt. Or take it with the weight of the countless other similar stories such as the books 'Fear', 'Fire and Fury' and 'Unhinged'. Or the countless number of stories and leaks out of the White House.
And his public behavior going back for decades.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:26 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And his public behavior going back for decades.
The man is nuttier than a fruitcake. As well as being the most dishonest human being I have ever ever ever encountered.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:47 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The man is nuttier than a fruitcake. As well as being the most dishonest human being I have ever ever ever encountered.
Blatantly dishonest.

I'd wager the most dishonest person most of us have ever encountered is someone each of us think is a pretty decent guy.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:48 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The Times said the source was

Unless you are buying into the Trump propaganda that these sources are made of whole cloth, the op ed is legit. Now whether it's this guy alone or that there are others depends on the cred of the op ed author.
Hadn't seen that quote, so, like I said, forget I said it.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:49 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think theprestige has posited that it is possible that the NYT was duped in some way or another.
I was challenging kellyb's idea that the NYT could not have been duped.

I don't think the NYT was duped, I just think kellyb was wrong to categorically reject the possibility.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:52 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And I said we don't need to know. The article is not important for the facts it lays out, it is important for how the Trump administration has reacted. Which, by the way, gives credence to the op-ed being true.
Have you considered the possibility that the op-ed is false, and that the administration is reacting irrationally?

Because Trump's behavior over the past couple years certainly gives a lot of credence to that scenario, too.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:54 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was challenging kellyb's idea that the NYT could not have been duped.

I don't think the NYT was duped, I just think kellyb was wrong to categorically reject the possibility.
I don't think they were duped either but I amended my sentence to account for that possibility.

Do you think it matters how many of the claims made in the op-ed are true?
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:54 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Would a senior WH official act as a cutout in this way? No.
You're just speculating.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:55 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you considered the possibility that the op-ed is false, and that the administration is reacting irrationally?

Because Trump's behavior over the past couple years certainly gives a lot of credence to that scenario, too.
Possible. Doesn't that say a lot more about Trump than the article said?
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:56 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Possible. Doesn't that say a lot more about Trump than the article said?
Well, it says something verifiably true about Trump: He has responded the way he has responded. So there's that.

But this incident doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know or believe, really. Some "bombshell".
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:00 PM   #227
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Trump wrote it. He did it because he wants to scare the crap out of any real staffers who might think about doing the same thing.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:05 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Blatantly dishonest.

I'd wager the most dishonest person most of us have ever encountered is someone each of us think is a pretty decent guy.
I don't believe that at all. I certainly wouldn't think that. I value integrity.

One of my brothers was a pathological liar. He wasn't nice. He wasn't trustworthy and almost no one liked him in reality. And yet as much as my brother Mickey lied, he was much more truthful than Trump could hope to be. Now that is scary.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:11 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, it says something verifiably true about Trump: He has responded the way he has responded. So there's that.

But this incident doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know or believe, really. Some "bombshell".
If a device has the intended effect the size isn't really an issue.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:15 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't believe that at all. I certainly wouldn't think that. I value integrity.

One of my brothers was a pathological liar. He wasn't nice. He wasn't trustworthy and almost no one liked him in reality. And yet as much as my brother Mickey lied, he was much more truthful than Trump could hope to be. Now that is scary.
My point was more along the lines of " a sufficiently intelligent dishonest person will be able to appear honest ".
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:24 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
And I said we don't need to know. The article is not important for the facts it lays out, it is important for how the Trump administration has reacted. Which, by the way, gives credence to the op-ed being true.
Indeed. They always call it "fake news" or some variation of that whenever they can, except when it's undeniably true. Could it be that they expect something to happen if they deny its authenticity? I don't know. It's just weird from Trump and Sanders.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When reporters use names sources in a story, readers can use the identity of the source to evaluate its reliability. When reporters use anonymous sources, they should corroborate the information provided by the source, because readers cannot use the identity of the source to evaluate its reliability.

A normal editorial, even a normal guest one, is like a named source: readers can use the identity of the author to evaluate the reliability of the content. That cannot be done here.
And how are people going to evaluate the credibility of the individual? Trump apologists are going to say that whoever wrote this article is dishonest and gutless because s/he has said and done these things.

When it comes to evaluating the credibility, there's a difference between guy in a bar (or on a messageboard), White House reporter, and person working within the administration. That this comes from someone inside the White House gives it credibility. Also, being anonymous can increase its credibility. When Trump asks everyone in a room to go around telling him how great he is, people often use a technique for social interaction called "lying," and, more specifically, "sucking up." By writing anonymously, we can say how we really feel.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:48 PM   #233
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Oops Dbl post.

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Old 6th September 2018, 03:51 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
An accumulation of evidence from a variety of independent sources that all point in the same direction is generally referred to in skeptic circles as . . . confirmation bias?
The definition I'm getting is "the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories." So, no?

I mean, testimony from multiple independent sources can and has led to plenty of criminal convictions.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:52 PM   #235
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nevermind, I misread.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:59 PM   #236
Meadmaker
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So, what was the bombshell part?


That he's erratic? Amoral? That lots of people, including his staff, don't like him?

I don't see any bombshells there. It's nothing we didn't already know.


If it really did turn out to be Nikki Haley or Mike Pence or someone we've heard of who wrote the letter, that might be sort of a bombshell. (Pence would definitely be a bombshell.) However, as far as the content of the editorial goes, it's pretty old news.


It's kind of sad that it's old news, but it's old news.
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Old 6th September 2018, 04:01 PM   #237
kellyb
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
The definition I'm getting is "the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories." So, no?

I mean, testimony from multiple independent sources can and has led to plenty of criminal convictions.
I think Zig is saying is that:
1) since all of the leaks have been anonymous, there might only be one leaker, not several independent ones, and
2) our interpretation of the leaks are prone to "confirmation bias" because we'll ignore people like Kellyanne Conway and Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who are also in the WH, who claim that the leaks are lies
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Old 6th September 2018, 04:12 PM   #238
William Parcher
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I wonder if American history books in the future will mention "that anonymous op-ed letter".
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Old 6th September 2018, 04:18 PM   #239
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
My point was more along the lines of " a sufficiently intelligent dishonest person will be able to appear honest ".
I'm not sure what that means. ?????
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Old 6th September 2018, 04:21 PM   #240
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So, what was the bombshell part?


That he's erratic? Amoral? That lots of people, including his staff, don't like him?

I don't see any bombshells there. It's nothing we didn't already know.


If it really did turn out to be Nikki Haley or Mike Pence or someone we've heard of who wrote the letter, that might be sort of a bombshell. (Pence would definitely be a bombshell.) However, as far as the content of the editorial goes, it's pretty old news.


It's kind of sad that it's old news, but it's old news.
The Bonbshell is that somebody in the Trump White House wrote it.
Anyway, in terms of the impact it is having on Trump, it IS a Bombshell.
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