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Old 7th September 2018, 02:25 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
<snip>

For those old enough/interested enough to know about Watergate, how many knew who Mark Felt was when he was revealed as "Deep Throat"?

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
<snip>

My point was that people were guessing he was someone very prominent, and it turns out he wasn't (that I knew of, anyway).

<snip>

The word "prominent" in this usage is a rather indeterminate, perhaps even slippery one. It tends to relate more toward the degree of public familiarity with the person more than anything else. Kanye West is 'more prominent' than VP Pence in many ways.

Mark Felt was the Associate Director of the FBI. The second highest ranking official in the country's top law enforcement organization.

That certainly would fit the definition of "senior official" even if his name wasn't particularly "prominent" to most casual news readers.
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Old 7th September 2018, 02:33 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think it's possible to dislike the op-ed author and the things s/he's admitting to doing in the op-ed, and to like the fact that it sets the cat amongst the pigeons while also offering more evidence as to Trump's unfitness for office and thereby potentially hastening his removal from that office. It's possible to see things in terms other than black and white.
Of course. Than again, Trumps unfitness is quite apparent and has been for a while. And this op-ed confirms they'll keep Trump in place for as long as he's useful the the party. Also nothing new.
I don't see how this op-ed would hasten his removal, because it's clear that the only people in a position to remove him are keeping him there to secure their own jobs.
Unless the plan is to goad him into becoming so paranoid he'll make a mistake even his handlers can't prevent so they can safely wash their hands of him.

I don't think that kind of subterfuge is good for the USA, regardless of which party one votes for.

And for those who want to get rid of Trump because of his policies rather than his personal ineptness, president Pence would be even worse.
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Old 7th September 2018, 02:34 AM   #323
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Felt may not have been a household name in 1974, but when the WSJ published an article about "Deep Throat" 10 days after All the President's Men was published, his name was literally the first thing mentioned in the body of the article.

DmbKUbLX0AEo08h.jpg


https://twitter.com/ChetPowell/statu...40349723168770
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Old 7th September 2018, 02:34 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Murder on the Orient Express. They all did it.
Nah. More like Making Excuses on the Orient Express.
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Old 7th September 2018, 02:42 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
At least we can be certain Trump will never quote Louis XIV on the matter. Because he's never heard of him.
It's pronounced "Louie Ziv" not many people know that. Great guy, he really likes me, thinks I'm doing a great job.
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Old 7th September 2018, 02:50 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't see how this op-ed would hasten his removal, because it's clear that the only people in a position to remove him are keeping him there to secure their own jobs.
It's now public knowledge that that's what they're doing. That puts more pressure (only slightly more, but more) on them to stop doing so.

Just yesterday, a senator publicly called for the invocation of the 25th Amendment. That's something that wouldn't have happened three days ago.

Will that lead to the 25h Amendment being invoked? No. But it's one more brick in the wall.

Quote:
I don't think that kind of subterfuge is good for the USA, regardless of which party one votes for.
Perhaps not in the short term. Maybe in the long term.

Quote:
And for those who want to get rid of Trump because of his policies rather than his personal ineptness, president Pence would be even worse.
Sure. I think it's possible to want a worse, competent president in place of a better, incompetent one, if the former helps stem the erosion of democracy.
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Old 7th September 2018, 03:04 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Which all leads me to wonder if the letter/op-ed piece could have been written by someone well outside the White House, with the simple intent of turning the knob up to eleven in an already paranoid Oval Office.
I know, that's crazy talk, never mind, forget I said it.

The reaction within the WH would seem to suggest it was accurate enough for them to believe it came from the inside.
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Old 7th September 2018, 03:26 AM   #328
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I'm going with either Kudlow or Bill Shine. The letter is from a party ideologue and there aren't all that many of those at the senior levels of the administration.
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Old 7th September 2018, 03:36 AM   #329
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If we're trying to work out who it is, then it has to be someone who was either there at the beginning, or who is friendly with people who were there at the beginning, because s/he talks about the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment early into Trump's presidency.
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Old 7th September 2018, 04:29 AM   #330
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It's clearly Ivanka. She has fallen under the compelling influence of that master mesmerizer Omarosa. Every night Ivanka creeps around the White House in a cat costume, stealing papers and spraying her territory. But when the Secret Service has the urine DNA tested it comes back as Trump DNA so they assume it's Donald doing it, and take no action, chalking it up as a reaction to Diet Coke overdose.
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Old 7th September 2018, 04:43 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Not all of us are cheering. I think this is very dangerous.
Not only dangerous, but it sets a terrible precedent. With time, anything you disagree with the president on, you can interfere with.
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Old 7th September 2018, 04:44 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's clearly Ivanka. She has fallen under the compelling influence of that master mesmerizer Omarosa. Every night Ivanka creeps around the White House in a cat costume, stealing papers and spraying her territory. But when the Secret Service has the urine DNA tested it comes back as Trump DNA so they assume it's Donald doing it, and take no action, chalking it up as a reaction to Diet Coke overdose.


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Old 7th September 2018, 04:45 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not only dangerous, but it sets a terrible precedent. With time, anything you disagree with the president on, you can interfere with.
What about when Reagan was losing it? Bush and Co. were running the country, working around Reagan. Should they have not done that? Or gotten him out of office? What would that have been like, during the Cold War?
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Old 7th September 2018, 04:46 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Of course. Than again, Trumps unfitness is quite apparent and has been for a while. And this op-ed confirms they'll keep Trump in place for as long as he's useful the the party. Also nothing new.
That's what they thought about Hitler, too.
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Old 7th September 2018, 04:47 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What about when Reagan was losing it? Bush and Co. were running the country, working around Reagan. Should they have not done that? Or gotten him out of office? What would that have been like, during the Cold War?
All excellent questions. But here's the catch: that it's desirable to do that when the president is clearly wrong or crazy doesn't change the fact that it becomes harder and harder with time to distinguish between that situation and one where you simply strongly disagree with the commander-in-chief.
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:03 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's really not true. For example:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-ol...htmlstory.html
That person isn't angry with the NYT for publishing the op-ed, they're angry with the writer for not doing the right thing.

And rightly so. They're basically using Trump to advance an ultra-conservative agenda while trying to contain his incompetence. What they should be doing is removing him from the office, either by invoking the 25th amendment or publicizing his incompetence enough that he will be impeached.
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:08 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If there's only one anonymous source with no confirmation, then yes, an article is suspect. Most journalists know this. Most readers should too.
Except the confirmation is in three other books written about the Trump White House. They all tell the same story.
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:18 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Except the confirmation is in three other books written about the Trump White House. They all tell the same story.
It's also not an anonymous source as far as the NYT is concerned. They know who it is but chose to publish as "Anonymous".

You do not require corroboration if you know the only salient fact - that the author is able to be verified by your editors. Because? It's an opinion piece. People are free to hold other opinions but you don't corroborate Op Ed pieces, fer crissake! That's a dodge that the Trump Defenders, Interference Runners and Enablers came up with. You have to feel sorry for them. The best they've got so far is "well, he/she wasn't necessarily said to be "in the White House" by the NYT, so there!" Without a name to smear, they can either continue splitting hairs or simply trash/smear every name associated with the Trump Administration.

It's proof of the deep state. No, wait, it's fake news. Oooh, I know, it's not corroborated so the NYT fails at their journalistic standards. Oh, yeah, well he's a poopy head, that much we can all agree on!
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:31 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What in the world is a cut-out?

The NYT said they talked to someone in the Trump admin who confirmed that they were the author.

Did you listen to the podcast where the NYT editor was talking about how he determined it was real?
At the end of the day it really wouldn't make any practical.difference anyway, if a member of the Trump Admin claims it and is willing to endorse what was written who actually put pen to paper is secondary. When a politician gives a speech or press release it is their endorsement of the words that matters, not whether they used a speech writer.
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:50 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Awesome Poe!

See, your problem is there is no OTHER evidence to support your claims. So on its own, that was barely funny. Unlike Op-Ed, which is being confirmed by Donny's own reaction. If he had only kept his trap shut and ignored it, it would have fallen with a thud. But then there is Woodward's opus to respond to. Tougher prospect - he has footnotes! ��
Just remember, when the message is bad, shoot the messenger, and all is well.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:11 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Except the confirmation is in three other books written about the Trump White House. They all tell the same story.
You say that like they're all independent sources. But we don't know that. It's common to leak things through multiple channels, making it look like there's more sources than there actually are.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:15 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's also not an anonymous source as far as the NYT is concerned. They know who it is but chose to publish as "Anonymous".
When a reporter uses an anonymous source, that doesn't mean that the reporter doesn't know who the source is. They're still anonymous.

Quote:
You do not require corroboration if you know the only salient fact - that the author is able to be verified by your editors. Because? It's an opinion piece.
That excuse doesn't fly. If it's mere opinion, then none of it matters, it's just an employee who doesn't like their boss. The reason anyone thinks this is relevant is because it's claiming a factual basis for those opinions. And that basis does deserve corroboration.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:24 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That excuse doesn't fly. If it's mere opinion, then none of it matters, it's just an employee who doesn't like their boss. The reason anyone thinks this is relevant is because it's claiming a factual basis for those opinions. And that basis does deserve corroboration.
Why does the NYT need an excuse for publishing it?

Isn't "we knew it would sell" or "because I wanted to" or "we knew our readership would appreciate it" good enough on its own?
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:27 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Why does the NYT need an excuse for publishing it?

Isn't "we knew it would sell" or "because I wanted to" or "we knew our readership would appreciate it" good enough on its own?
Because that isn't how standards worked. If they wanted to sell a lot, they would include pornography. But they elect not to for reasons.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:43 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because that isn't how standards worked. If they wanted to sell a lot, they would include pornography. But they elect not to for reasons.
Yeah, but, an anonymous op ed isn't porn.

And if the NYT wanted to include porn, they could. Free market. They actually sell more by not including porn. I think the readership would prefer to keep booties and boobies in a separate mental box from Krugman, Friedman, and war corespondents.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:45 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, but, an anonymous op ed isn't porn.

And if the NYT wanted to include porn, they could. Free market. They actually sell more by not including porn. I think the readership would prefer to keep booties and boobies in a separate mental box from Krugman, Friedman, and war corespondents.
I think with porn would sell better.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:47 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When a reporter uses an anonymous source, that doesn't mean that the reporter doesn't know who the source is. They're still anonymous.



That excuse doesn't fly. If it's mere opinion, then none of it matters, it's just an employee who doesn't like their boss. The reason anyone thinks this is relevant is because it's claiming a factual basis for those opinions. And that basis does deserve corroboration.
It is not claiming a factual basis for the opinions. It's claiming that the person making the statements is in situ in the rotting administration. The opinions, as several rather dim members have pointed out, are nothing new. You can't corroborate an opinion.

All you can do is out the source or vet the source. The NYT has chosen to vet the source and confirm it but they won't share it with you. Gee, that's sad.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:47 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think with porn would sell better.
Well, I guess the NYT's editor just disagrees.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:51 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, I guess the NYT's editor just disagrees.
I don't think they do. I think they consider other things besides maximizing sales. That is my point.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:54 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think they do. I think they consider other things besides maximizing sales. That is my point.
I think you're wrong. I think the shareholders would agree with me.
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:57 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Shall we start the betting?

I'm going out on a short limb and saying it's Huckers. She is right up close to the action, is on board with the administration's goals, works close enough to the Marmalade Shartcannon to swipe his stationery, and has expressed some sort of desire to be out of the place by December, i.e. after the mid-terms which are expected to be a disaster.
I'm going to go out today and find some guys to start a punk band. The sole reason is so that I can name our first album "Marmalade Shartcannon."
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Old 7th September 2018, 06:58 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Why does the NYT need an excuse for publishing it?

Isn't "we knew it would sell" or "because I wanted to" or "we knew our readership would appreciate it" good enough on its own?
That depends. What kind of business does the NYT want to be? If they're just putting out whatever sells, then nothing distinguishes them from TMZ. But the NYT motto "All the news that's fit to print" suggests that they aspire to be something a little different. And living up to that motto requires a different justification than merely what sells in the moment.
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:09 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think with porn would sell better.
Like, say, The Enquirer? This isn't theoretical philosophical navel gazing. There are facts available. The NYT has three times the readership of the Enquirer. Ten times the readership of Playboy.

Really, Bob! Time to retire this foolish argument.
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:11 AM   #354
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:18 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That depends. What kind of business does the NYT want to be? If they're just putting out whatever sells, then nothing distinguishes them from TMZ. But the NYT motto "All the news that's fit to print" suggests that they aspire to be something a little different. And living up to that motto requires a different justification than merely what sells in the moment.
I actually think you're making a good point in a way. Their niche is in sprinkling TMZ-esque stuff in with high quality journalism, as well as driving whatever the "mainstream narrative" happens to be. It's how they've rolled for a long time.

They're not "the best of the best of the best", and they never have been, in my life, at least.
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:22 AM   #356
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Anonymous accusations against Donald Trump?

At least Omarossa had the guts to come forward and face cross-examination.
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:22 AM   #357
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I may be rehashing some stuff but....
A. Not a bombshell, it just confirms stuff we all suspect anyway.
B. Even if it is an administration insider, such anonymous sources from this administration aren't much more reliable than Trump.
C. If its an honest editorial by an insider, WTF?
C1. You can make argument for doing what he claims to do. Try to curb the worst impulses of the mad president. If you can't get enough cabinet members to invoke the 25th amendment. Even if you can, it would really stir up a hornets nest among the Trumpists.
C2. You can make an argument for resigning and saying this all out loud.
C3. You can make an argument for the 25th amendment removal.

C4. I don't see a valid argument for doing what the editorial claims to be doing and then announcing it anonymously in the paper. That has no real upside and could just make Trump worse. WTF?
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:24 AM   #358
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Can we not call it an "anonymous" source, and call it an "undisclosed source"?
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:26 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think they do. I think they consider other things besides maximizing sales. That is my point.
Maximizing profits in the long run is best accomplished with a consistent reputation.

TMZ gets the most sales by being the best TMZ it can be. They have a reputation for salacious gossip. If things might be somehow objectively popular, but not on brand for TMZ then they may not want to print it.

The same is true for the NYT. Their profitability is reliant on remaining on-brand. If they (as you suggested) switched to porn, many of their long time customers would drop their subscriptions and they wouldn't pick up many new ones because porn is free on the internet.

Their profitability is rooted in delivering a certain kind of news experience.
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Old 7th September 2018, 07:27 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Can we not call it an "anonymous" source, and call it an "undisclosed source"?
Why?
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