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Old 9th September 2018, 11:59 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Or yelling 'police!' as she drew should have been response number one. Have a hard time believing she wasn't trained to do that
The article said she was coming off a 12 hour shift. She could have been very tired. Being very tired and driving is stupid. Being very tired and going to your apartment is not.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:01 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
...
Do white grandmothers kill black men? No? Then the situation is not remotely similar. Do you think if there had been a little girl in the apartment she would have shot her? I doubt it. But men do kill women, so she had a prima facie reason to be scared.
....
Ah, now we're getting to it. Black men are scary, and white girls are allowed to kill them.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:02 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The article said she was coming off a 12 hour shift. She could have been very tired. Being very tired and driving is stupid. Being very tired and going to your apartment is not.
But going to somebody else's apartment and killing him is.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:02 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
My cousin fell asleep coming home from a double shift & ran over a girl waiting for a school bus. He got 8 years.
In my high school, one of my classmate's brother was killed when he was on his skateboard. Apparently he was in a crouched position and darted out in front of an old lady while she was driving directly into the sun. She didn't even realize she had hit somebody and continued on driving. People at the scene thought it was a hit and run before the PD tracked her down. She was never charged.

So I guess it depends on the circumstances?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:07 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Yes. Do you think shooting someone for being home is a smart thing to do?
Of course not. But in order for it to be criminal, we have to establish a few things. Was she negligent? Did she intend to kill someone when she went home?


Quote:
The catalyst for running over that girl was the mistaken identification of how tired he was.


How can you be mistaken about how tired you are? I'm 42 and have been driving since I was 16. I know when I'm too tired to be behind the wheel. So do you. I assume we're not talking about narcolepsy here?

Quote:
He'd made that drive dozens if not hundreds of times without incident. This time there was one.
And he was engaged in negligent behavior that he knew he should not be doing: driving while tired. What is the parallel with this woman? What did she do that she knew was wrong or negligent?


Quote:
I've made the mistake of going to the wrong door several times. A few of them I was armed. I didn't shoot, club or stab anyone.
Quote:
She should be punished because he mistake cost someone their life.
That's ridiculous. If the mistake is through no fault of your own (e.g., temporary insanity, involuntary intoxication), you're not going to be punished for any mistakes you make. I'm not arguing she was temporarily insane, I'm arguing she might not have done anything criminally negligent.

Just because there is a shooting and a dead body does not automatically mean someone should go to jail. There are mitigating circumstances.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:07 PM   #246
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Sometimes maintenance or emergency personnel have to access an apartment without notice to turn water off or whatever. I guess Officer Reaper would execute them too.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:07 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
.....


Do white grandmothers kill black men? No? Then the situation is not remotely similar. Do you think if there had been a little girl in the apartment she would have shot her? I doubt it. But men do kill women, so she had a prima facie reason to be scared.

....
By your logic any woman should be able to walk down the street with a machine gun and randomly shoot anyone that makes her feel nervous.

That's ridiculous.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:09 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Ah, now we're getting to it. Black men are scary, and white girls are allowed to kill them.
Women don't have reasonable fears about men? Are you really going to try and argue that an old lady in your house is comparable to a man? Seriously?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:10 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Sometimes maintenance or emergency personnel have to access an apartment without notice to turn water off or whatever. I guess Officer Reaper would execute them too.
Perhaps the apartment didn't have enough cow bell?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:10 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
In my high school, one of my classmate's brother was killed when he was on his skateboard. Apparently he was in a crouched position and darted out in front of an old lady while she was driving directly into the sun. She didn't even realize she had hit somebody and continued on driving. People at the scene thought it was a hit and run before the PD tracked her down. She was never charged.

So I guess it depends on the circumstances?

Oh I'm sure it's more than just the circumstances, like who's driving, who got hit, etc...
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:10 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post

The article you linked to didn't say a warrant has been issued.

It said (in large print as part of the headline;
"Manslaughter Warrant Sought For Officer Who Killed Neighbor"

At last report that I can find, no warrant for her arrest and charge has been issued yet.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
<snip>

But in this particular case, I don't know if these are particular factors. Especially true since, while police behavior has been questionable even here, the cop has been charged with a crime at the very least.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
As I hear the latest news she has not actually had a legal charge or an arrest warrant, and the Texas Rangers continue to investigate.

<snip>

Two days after the shooting the Chief of Police said they hadn't arrested or charged her yet, and now they couldn't because the Texas Rangers had taken over the case and asked them not to.

If she had not been a police officer, just some mope who went to the wrong apartment and then shot the resident who answered the door, does anyone really believe that the cops would have been unable to get a warrant for her arrest and to file charges for two days?

This has gone beyond ridiculous. It truly appears that there are no circumstances so outlandish that cops don't get special treatment for no reason at all.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 9th September 2018 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:10 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
By your logic any woman should be able to walk down the street with a machine gun and randomly shoot anyone that makes her feel nervous.

That's ridiculous.
By my logic, we have to look at what happened in totality and see where we can lay blame and culpability, if there is any.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:11 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It doesn't show the whole door. Or all of the walls beside the door.
Sure, but it shows pretty much five of the six panels of the door, and a good +6 inches either side (if there was a number on the wall, it wouldn't be on the left, as the wall angles away on that side). If it's on the top panel, it's well above head height.

Quote:
It does show the bright red doormat, which Officer Guyger doesn't have in front of her own door.
Yeah, someone would have to be seriously non-focussed not to notice that.

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Old 9th September 2018, 12:12 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Driving while very tired is not a smart thing to do. What did this woman do that was equivalent? She mistook someone else's apartment for her own, and events spiraled out of control. The catalyst to all this was the mistaken identification. If that was an honest mistake on her part, one we all are capable of making, what are we punishing her for?
WUT?

Negligent discharges are serious. She is guilty of either negligence, manslaughter, or murder, depending on what facts come out.

She has demonstrated that she is unsuitable to have access to firearms.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:16 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Women don't have reasonable fears about men?
Well, considering that women are significantly less likely to be murdered - especially by someone they don't know, male or female - than men are, I would say that the fear you think is reasonable is actually not reasonable.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 9th September 2018 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:16 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The article you linked to didn't say a warrant has been issued.

It said (in large print as part of the headline;
"Manslaughter Warrant Sought For Officer Who Killed Neighbor"
Which was two days ago.

At last report that I can find, no warrant for her arrest and charge has been issued yet.





Two days after the shooting the Chief of Police said they hadn't arrested or charged her yet, and now they couldn't because the Texas Rangers had taken over the case and asked them not to.

If she had not been a police officer, just some mope who went to the wrong apartment and then shot the resident who answered the door, does anyone really believe that the cops would have been unable to get a warrant for her arrest and to file charges for two days?

This has gone beyond ridiculous. It truly appears that there are no circumstances so outlandish that cops don't get special treatment for no reason at all.
I'm as hard on the cops as many people here, and I'm not seeing that being relevant. She was coming off a long shift. I think Occam's Razor applies here: she was tired, mistook her apartment for someone else's, and freaked out when she saw a black guy in what she thought was her apartment. She's a white woman, so there's obviously a racial element here, and she may have overreacted, but that has yet to be proven.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:17 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The article you linked to didn't say a warrant has been issued.

It said (in large print as part of the headline;
"Manslaughter Warrant Sought For Officer Who Killed Neighbor"

At last report that I can find, no warrant for her arrest and charge has been issued yet.


Two days after the shooting the Chief of Police said they hadn't arrested or charged her yet, and now they couldn't because the Texas Rangers had taken over the case and asked them not to.

If she had not been a police officer, just some mope who went to the wrong apartment and then shot the resident who answered the door, does anyone really believe that the cops would have been unable to get a warrant for her arrest and to file charges for two days?

This has gone beyond ridiculous. It truly appears that there are no circumstances so outlandish that cops don't get special treatment for no reason at all.

Listen, I didn't want to say this earlier, but she appears to be a little bit easier on the eyes (shall I say?) than I was expecting so ... let bygones be bygones?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:17 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The article said she was coming off a 12 hour shift. She could have been very tired. Being very tired and driving is stupid. Being very tired and going to your apartment is not.
Been there. Haven't we all had a long day and murdered someone?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:17 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
By my logic, we have to look at what happened in totality and see where we can lay blame and culpability, if there is any.

I blame her for not saying, "Who are you and what are you doing in my apartment.", instead of just shooting him without warning.

I believe it is fairly clear that she is culpable for that much.

She is culpable for shooting someone to death in their own home without any warning.

If you believe there isn't a crime involved there then something is wrong with you.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:20 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I blame her for not saying, "Who are you and what are you doing in my apartment.", instead of just shooting him without warning.

I believe it is fairly clear that she is culpable for that much.
How do we know what was said and what wasn't. Do you have a link?

Quote:
She is culpable for shooting someone to death in their own home without any warning.
You're not required by law to give a warning if you believe your life is in danger. And do we know she didn't give a warning? What exactly happened?

Quote:
If you believe there isn't a crime involved there then something is wrong with you.
I bet you she doesn't get charged.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:21 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
....
and freaked out when she saw a black guy in what she thought was her apartment. She's a white woman, so there's obviously a racial element here, and she may have overreacted, but that has yet to be proven.
Yeah, there is a racial element here: Black man = dangerous criminal. If that's her thinking as a trained police officer, that's all the more reason to lock her up, not a defense. Maybe a federal prosecution for hate crime?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:22 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Women don't have reasonable fears about men? Are you really going to try and argue that an old lady in your house is comparable to a man? Seriously?
Because little old ladies are harmless.

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Old 9th September 2018, 12:24 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, considering that women are significantly less likely to be murdered - especially by someone they don't know, male or female - than men are, I would say that the fear you think is reasonable is actually not reasonable.
Interesting. What about rape? Are men also more likely to be raped by someone they don't know?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:25 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Of course not. But in order for it to be criminal, we have to establish a few things. Was she negligent?
Gonna stop ya right there. Yes.



Quote:


How can you be mistaken about how tired you are? I'm 42 and have been driving since I was 16. I know when I'm too tired to be behind the wheel. So do you. I assume we're not talking about narcolepsy here?
Does the personal incredulity of the people asking "how does one mistake someone else's apartment for their own?" count as much as yours here?



Quote:
And he was engaged in negligent behavior that he knew he should not be doing: driving while tired. What is the parallel with this woman? What did she do that she knew was wrong or negligent?
What makes you think she had to know she was being negligent to be charged?




Quote:
That's ridiculous. If the mistake is through no fault of your own (e.g., temporary insanity, involuntary intoxication), you're not going to be punished for any mistakes you make. I'm not arguing she was temporarily insane, I'm arguing she might not have done anything criminally negligent.
How is this mistake not her fault?

Quote:
Just because there is a shooting and a dead body does not automatically mean someone should go to jail. There are mitigating circumstances.
What are the mitigating circumstances?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:27 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is she a danger to society? Do you think she'll do this again? Is there any history of this ever happening with her before?
If it is revealed that the legal occupant of the apartment was not threatening anyone, then it appears that shooting someone for being in their apartment makes the shooter a threat to society. If the shooter gets away with the killing then I'd say they are more likely to do it again.

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Old 9th September 2018, 12:28 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I blame her for not saying, "Who are you and what are you doing in my apartment.", instead of just shooting him without warning.

I believe it is fairly clear that she is culpable for that much.

She is culpable for shooting someone to death in their own home without any warning.

If you believe there isn't a crime involved there then something is wrong with you.
There is so far, as far as I can Google, no indication of what was said (if anything), where in the apartment the shooting took place, how the door got opened, or a myriad of other details that could shed light on wether or not a crime was committed here.

Being certain either way at this point is foolish.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:30 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Because little old ladies are harmless.

https://www.ranker.com/list/killer-g.../jacob-shelton


Do I need to pull out the FBI crime statistics on old women vs men?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:31 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What is the point of punishment? I can think of three justifications: to remove a dangerous person from society, to send a message to other members of society, or to get a person to change their behavior.

Which of the three apply here?

All three?

Maybe with a little time in jail she'll become less dangerous to society. It's pretty clear that she was dangerous last Thursday night.

It would send a message to other members of society that shooting strangers in their own home , or ... hopefully ... anywhere else, with no warning is a wrong thing to do.

Sitting behind bars for a while is intended to change someone's behavior. That's not to say it works, but it is certainly part of the intent.

And removing her right to carry a firearm wouldn't be a bad outcome either. See point #1.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:31 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
If it is revealed that the legal occupant of the apartment was not threatening anyone, then it appears that shooting someone for being in their apartment makes the shooter a threat to society. If the shooter gets away with the killing then I'd say they are more likely to do it again.

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It's not complex, is it?
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:34 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
...Being certain either way at this point is foolish.
QFT. But seriously, on this forum? It ain't gonna' happen.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:34 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's not complex, is it?
Criminal cases can be incredibly complex. Look at the Kate Steinle case. That wasn't homicide, although at the time everyone was convinced it was.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:37 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Criminal cases can be incredibly complex. Look at the Kate Steinle case. That wasn't homicide, although at the time everyone was convinced it was.
It was either negligence, or homicide unless the victim picked up a weapon and was charging at the policewoman when she could then have shot him in justified self-defence.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:38 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Sure, but it shows pretty much five of the six panels of the door, and a good +6 inches either side (if there was a number on the wall, it wouldn't be on the left, as the wall angles away on that side). If it's on the top panel, it's well above head height.

And it could have been more than 6 inches to one side, or above head height. Head height is where the peephole is.

Just out of curiosity, how many upscale four story apartment complexes have you been in that had no door numbers?

Quote:


Yeah, someone would have to be seriously non-focussed not to notice that.

Indeed.

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Old 9th September 2018, 12:40 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
In my high school, one of my classmate's brother was killed when he was on his skateboard. Apparently he was in a crouched position and darted out in front of an old lady while she was driving directly into the sun. She didn't even realize she had hit somebody and continued on driving. People at the scene thought it was a hit and run before the PD tracked her down. She was never charged.

So I guess it depends on the circumstances?
Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Oh I'm sure it's more than just the circumstances, like who's driving, who got hit, etc...

Yeah. If it had been a young black man driving instead of an old lady, for instance.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:45 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Women don't have reasonable fears about men? Are you really going to try and argue that an old lady in your house is comparable to a man? Seriously?
SHE'S A GODDAMN COP!

You don't get to play the "Poor widdle scared defenseless woman" card for her.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:45 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
There is so far, as far as I can Google, no indication of what was said (if anything), where in the apartment the shooting took place, how the door got opened, or a myriad of other details that could shed light on wether or not a crime was committed here.

Being certain either way at this point is foolish.

Considering that there is only one living witness to the events which transpired up to the point that Botham Jean was shot and killed, it is unlikely we are going to have a great deal more data to work with.

We may have to settle for what we have. And the shooter has said nothing to mitigate the circumstances, the data we do have comes from her.
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Old 9th September 2018, 12:55 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'm as hard on the cops as many people here,

Umm, no. I don't think so.

Quote:
and I'm not seeing that being relevant. She was coming off a long shift. I think Occam's Razor applies here: she was tired, mistook her apartment for someone else's, and freaked out when she saw a black guy in what she thought was her apartment. She's a white woman,

She's an armed, white COP. with whatever it is that stands in for training for cops these days.

Hell, this isn't even her first shooting. Four years on the job and she's already shot two people, one of them for opening a door.

How many cops can go for years without ever shooting anyone? We get told about that all the time. Every time some cop shoots someone for no good reason, it seems like.

Trying to paint her as some frail, helpless woman is beyond pitiful.

Quote:
so there's obviously a racial element here, and she may have overreacted, but that has yet to be proven.

If there is obviously a racial element, then you are saying that she is obviously a racist, who assumes someone must be a threat because they are a black male.

Are you sure that's a point you want to emphasize?
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:07 PM   #278
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Jesus Christ, will progressives share this "Victim Ranking Chart" they keep using to make decisions on what is okay with the rest of us?
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:30 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
By my logic, we have to look at what happened in totality and see where we can lay blame and culpability, if there is any.
Mistaking another's home for your own, negligent in the extreme. Especially for a cop. You know, that group of people who are supposed to be observant, aware, prepared so as to be able to identify problems, suspicious activity, detect crime, read people and their behaviour, make accurate assessments of threat.

Someone with dementia may reasonably not recognise their own home. Someone who has just moved house may at a push. But not a cop.

Shooting the person, that is excessive force. There are plenty of alternatives, the main one being, asking some questions and keeping clam. Then there is the option of a retreat and call for assistance.

She is culpable and has to take full blame for what happened.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:32 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
She's a white woman, so there's obviously a racial element here, and she may have overreacted, but that has yet to be proven.
That's what the trial is for. No charge, no trial.
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