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Old 9th September 2018, 01:35 PM   #281
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Someone who has just moved house may at a push.
That factor is in play here. She had just moved in a month before.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:42 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Shooting the person, that is excessive force. There are plenty of alternatives, the main one being, asking some questions and keeping clam. Then there is the option of a retreat and call for assistance.

She is culpable and has to take full blame for what happened.
She was off-duty so I think some of these things don't apply. I think she also can't be disciplined for improper police procedure. The police chief asked the Texas Rangers to get involved because of these and other complications. The incident itself is said to be complicated and then that she is off-duty is more complication.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:45 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Mistaking another's home for your own, negligent in the extreme. Especially for a cop. You know, that group of people who are supposed to be observant, aware, prepared so as to be able to identify problems, suspicious activity, detect crime, read people and their behaviour, make accurate assessments of threat.

Someone with dementia may reasonably not recognise their own home. Someone who has just moved house may at a push. But not a cop.

Shooting the person, that is excessive force. There are plenty of alternatives, the main one being, asking some questions and keeping clam. Then there is the option of a retreat and call for assistance.

She is culpable and has to take full blame for what happened.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She was off-duty so I think some of these things don't apply. I think she also can't be disciplined for improper police procedure. The police chief asked the Texas Rangers to get involved because of these and other complications. The incident itself is said to be complicated and then that she is off-duty is more complication.
All that means is that she had no more authority than any other citizen, the rest of Nessie's post still stands.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:49 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She was off-duty so I think some of these things don't apply. I think she also can't be disciplined for improper police procedure. The police chief asked the Texas Rangers to get involved because of these and other complications. The incident itself is said to be complicated and then that she is off-duty is more complication.
Off-duty cops can still act as cops. In many jurisdictions, cops are expected to carry their guns and badges off-duty so they can intervene if needed. Whether or not she's on duty doesn't diminish the expectation that she will rely on her police training and experience in deciding whether to kill somebody. She was only packing heat because she was a cop.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:51 PM   #285
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In Colorado my friend and I were getting in very late from a day's skiing with a long drive and getting lost on the way back to my brother's home. We walked into what we thought was my brother's house - they all looked alike - and a dog came bounding down the stairs, and honestly our first thought was, "When did Jim get a dog?" The wrong house part didn't register until afterward.

No one was armed and the homeowner laughed it off. (Plus we were wearing ski clothes, not typical burglar gear, and she wasn't the paranoid type; both her house and my brother's were unlocked).

IMO if you think there's a burglar in your apartment you should call the cops, even if you are one. Anything that would have bought a few minutes or even seconds to reassess the situation. Recognizing the doormat, speaking to the "burglar" through the wall or door, anything. So what if she'd just worked a 12-hour shift? She was probably pretty tired after 11.5 hours, do we expect her judgment to be **** when she's on duty? There could have been multiple people in there for all she knew.

She made lousy decisions and people get prosecuted for making lousy decisions all the time.

When I was 13 a uniformed cop walked into my bedroom at 1 a.m. - he had followed my brother into the house thinking my brother was a burglar. Similar level of stupidity. My brother (a different one) was driving a VW bug ffs. He cut the lights as he pulled into the driveway - that was the only suspicious thing he did. Our house was never locked, either.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:52 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
...Someone with dementia may reasonably not recognise their own home. Someone who has just moved house may at a push. But not a cop...
Do they train cops to move house differently than every one else?
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:54 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
....
Our house was never locked, either.
I just note that it's astonishing to me -- a life-long urban dweller -- that anybody could "never" lock his doors.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:55 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Do you think every hunter who accidentally kills someone is prosecuted? Do you think they should be? The situation seems directly analogous to a hunter who mistakes his buddy for a deer and shoots him.
First of all, I don't think this is the same sort of situation. A person who is out hunting and mistakes his target is not the same as a person who is not hunting, has no prior reason to be carrying a loaded weapon at the ready, and is not in a situation where it's reasonable to shoot at anything at all. Nor is a cop in the same class as a hunter.

With that said, though, while I don't know how various agencies approach prosecution, I think it is appropriate if it's the only way reliably to disarm a person who has shown so dramatically that he or she lacks the judgment or the perception to be carrying a loaded weapon, and that would include a hunter who accidentally kills someone owing to "target misidentification." We're not talking, after all, of an activity on which life depends. Many hunters exercise great care so as to avoid that mistake, because they are competent and prudent, trained to understand the danger, and more willing to lose their game than to take fatal chances. And millions of people don't hunt, and go on living just fine. It's a sport with potentially fatal outcomes. You get a chance. You blow it royally. So maybe you don't need to go to prison. But you don't hunt any more. And yes, if prosecution is required to insure that last point, then yes, prosecution ought to occur.

e.t.a. responding to bob001...Welcome to the country. When i was a kid we never locked our doors except when we went away for more than the day. Later as an adult I rarely locked up when out for less than a day, and never when at home. When I moved to Vermont in 1986 I took to locking the front door because the house is close to the road, and people tended to wander in a bit too freely. For some time I never locked the back door. I do now, but it's probably not necessary. I changed doors and the latch is not so reliable, and my wife, with a more urban background, is less casual about it.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:56 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Off-duty cops can still act as cops. In many jurisdictions, cops are expected to carry their guns and badges off-duty so they can intervene if needed. Whether or not she's on duty doesn't diminish the expectation that she will rely on her police training and experience in deciding whether to kill somebody. She was only packing heat because she was a cop.
I'm not sure her being a cop really changes anything, except that it makes her bad judgment and lack of observational skills look even worse.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:57 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
All that means is that she had no more authority than any other citizen, the rest of Nessie's post still stands.
If she's a cop acting as a cop, she has a cop's authority. She doesn't stop being a cop when her shift is over.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:04 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm not sure her being a cop really changes anything, except that it makes her bad judgment and lack of observational skills look even worse.
For one thing, it explains why she had a gun and was so quick to draw it.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:05 PM   #292
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Off topic, but I keep hearing this US cops are never really off duty and have to carry their guns 24/7 etc

If this is the case and they have that much permanent power to shoot people etc

Shouldn't it be a requirement that they never drink or do anything else that might impair their judgement, as they can't when on duty?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:13 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I just note that it's astonishing to me -- a life-long urban dweller -- that anybody could "never" lock his doors.
Bro's house was in Niwot, outside Boulder.

I don't know how to explain my parents' lapses in judgment. I woke up with men (well, boys from my high school) in my room 2 other times. I think I know who they both were, though I didn't at the time. In the first case I felt something furry touch my face, reached out for what I thought was my cat and instead grabbed someone's arm. I found out that when I was terrified I could not scream very loud.

For a long, long time I never felt safe at night at home alone. Depending on the place I would use one or all of these strategies: locked bedroom door, had a phone in there with me, slept fully clothed, plotted escape routes and kept a loaded gun within reach. A few times I hid in my closet.

I surely would not have walked into my house if I thought a burglary was in process. One night I came home and noticed the dome light of my other vehicle was on. I called the cops and had them clear the house before I went in. I didn't have a gun, but even so I would not have gone in.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:16 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
For one thing, it explains why she had a gun and was so quick to draw it.
Yes, but this was in Texas the U.S. ... it probably doesn't need much explanation.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:17 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Off topic, but I keep hearing this US cops are never really off duty and have to carry their guns 24/7 etc
I doubt if they have to carry although I'm sure some (many?) do.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:19 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Off topic, but I keep hearing this US cops are never really off duty and have to carry their guns 24/7 etc

If this is the case and they have that much permanent power to shoot people etc

Shouldn't it be a requirement that they never drink or do anything else that might impair their judgement, as they can't when on duty?
It's complicated but what you've heard is mostly wrong.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:20 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interesting. What about rape? Are men also more likely to be raped by someone they don't know?
Men are more likely to have the crap beaten out of them than women are raped, but I doubt the officer in this case is going to argue that she shot an innocent guy in his own home because she thought he was going to rape her.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:32 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Men are more likely to have the crap beaten out of them than women are raped, but I doubt the officer in this case is going to argue that she shot an innocent guy in his own home because she thought he was going to rape her.
Good dodge. Are women less likely to have the "crap beaten out of them" and/or get raped than men?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:33 PM   #299
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So now the story is the evil black man was deviously sitting in his apartment ready to rape the first armed white woman who mistakenly walked in so the poor widdle defenseless woman was justified in shooting him.

This place never ceases to amaze me.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:38 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And it could have been more than 6 inches to one side, or above head height. Head height is where the peephole is.
Peepholes are usually placed somewhat lower than average head height to allow for shorter than average people (within reason). From the interior view of the similar apartment it can be seen that the peephole is about two-thirds of the way up the door.

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, how many upscale four story apartment complexes have you been in that had no door numbers?
All the ones I've been in in the UK have non-missable numbers on the doors or - less commonly - adjacent wall in positions that would have been plainly visible in a photograph showing as much as in the one of the door in question. Maybe, as Bob suggested, the numbers are engraved on the tiny door knocker, although that would seem weird to me.

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Old 9th September 2018, 02:39 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So now the story is the evil black man was deviously sitting in his apartment ready to rape the first armed white woman who mistakenly walked in so the poor widdle defenseless woman was justified in shooting him.

This place never ceases to amaze me.
Neglecting to acknowledge that the woman claimed she believed that she was entering her own apartment in order to spout that hyperbole rises to the level of being deliberately obtuse.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:42 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Peepholes are usually placed somewhat lower than average head height to allow for shorter than average people (within reason). From the interior view of the similar apartment it can be seen that the peephole is about two-thirds of the way up the door.



All the ones I've been in in the UK have non-missable numbers on the doors or - less commonly - adjacent wall in positions that would have been plainly visible in a photograph showing as much as in the one of the door in question. Maybe, as Bob suggested, the numbers are engraved on the tiny door knocker, although that would seem weird to me.
Are you suggesting that the woman in question did not mistakenly identify the door as the one to her own apartment?

You believe there was another motive? Why?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:46 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
That factor is in play here. She had just moved in a month before.
So after a month someone in a job where it's pretty much a given that the employee has to be good at spotting small details (i.e. "clues"), isn't able to recognise the inside of her own building?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:46 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Neglecting to acknowledge that the woman claimed she believed that she was entering her own apartment in order to spout that hyperbole rises to the level of being deliberately obtuse.
I don't care what the woman "thought" and I don't get why everybody thinks it changes reality.

Being stupid doesn't make other people a greater threat to you.

She goes into someone else's apartment by mistake, shoots them and people are grinding their gears raw trying to manufacture a scenario where she's still the victim somehow.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:49 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Good dodge. Are women less likely to have the "crap beaten out of them" and/or get raped than men?
Do you have statistics that show otherwise?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:52 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Men are more likely to have the crap beaten out of them than women are raped, but I doubt the officer in this case is going to argue that she shot an innocent guy in his own home because she thought he was going to rape her.
Why do you doubt that? Preventing a violent rape would be a valid argument for self-defense. Plus, the part about being afraid of being killed, too.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:53 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Are you suggesting that the woman in question did not mistakenly identify the door as the one to her own apartment?

You believe there was another motive? Why?
Not at all. My first reaction to hearing of this case was to wonder how someone could mistake another front door for their own, because... apartment numbers. I was surprised to see that - if there is one on the door in question - it's not anywhere I would expect it to be. That doesn't really take anything away from the other ways the officer should have been able to work out they were at the wrong door, or the grossly disproportionate response of immediately shooting the person who opened it.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:53 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Umm, no. I don't think so.




She's an armed, white COP. with whatever it is that stands in for training for cops these days.

Hell, this isn't even her first shooting. Four years on the job and she's already shot two people, one of them for opening a door.

How many cops can go for years without ever shooting anyone? We get told about that all the time. Every time some cop shoots someone for no good reason, it seems like.

Trying to paint her as some frail, helpless woman is beyond pitiful.




If there is obviously a racial element, then you are saying that she is obviously a racist, who assumes someone must be a threat because they are a black male.

Are you sure that's a point you want to emphasize?
Where are you getting these details?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:55 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Not at all. My first reaction to hearing of this case was to wonder how someone could mistake another front door for their own, because... apartment numbers. I was surprised to see that - if there is one on the door in question - it's not anywhere I would expect it to be. That doesn't really take anything away from the other ways the officer should have been able to work out they were at the wrong door, or the grossly disproportionate response of immediately shooting the person who opened it.
Link? The links I've seen have almost no specific information about what happened.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:55 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care what the woman "thought" and I don't get why everybody thinks it changes reality.

Being stupid doesn't make other people a greater threat to you.

She goes into someone else's apartment by mistake, shoots them and people are grinding their gears raw trying to manufacture a scenario where she's still the victim somehow.
Is there someone here trying to portray her as a victim? I have not seen evidence of that.

I will concede that some here are arguing that there is not enough information to label her a villain (myself included). Further reveals may demonstrate that it is the case that there was something here other than a tragic accident, but from what is available so far, that judgment is premature.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:56 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care what the woman "thought" and I don't get why everybody thinks it changes reality.
Of course it does, if reality includes the likelihood of her being charged or convicted.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:58 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Of course it does, if reality includes the likelihood of her being charged or convicted.
Yes, I thought that comment by Joe was bizarre in the extreme. State of mind is everything in these kinds of cases.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:58 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Why do you doubt that? Preventing a violent rape would be a valid argument for self-defense. Plus, the part about being afraid of being killed, too.
She clearly wasn't too afraid to bang on the door and provoke whoever was inside opening it. If she was as terrified as you would like us to think, why didn't she just hold back and wait for back-up?
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:59 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
She clearly wasn't too afraid to bang on the door and provoke whoever was inside opening it. If she was as terrified as you would like us to think, why didn't she just hold back and wait for back-up?
Where are you guys getting these details?
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:01 PM   #315
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People make mistakes. Sometimes inexplicable ones. All we "know" so far is that she thought she was at her own door. I don't find that claim as incredulous as some here seem to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdHpbI8Y7Oo

I always get a little chuckle out of that scene, possibly because I relate it to inexplicable brain farts I have had through my life.

The part I am referring to comes in at 2:00, sorry if I wasted your time watching the first part.
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Last edited by Distracted1; 9th September 2018 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:02 PM   #316
Ranb
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's not complex, is it?
It's a complete crap show.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:03 PM   #317
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This is all I can find:

Police said in a statement Friday that the officer “returned to what she believed to be her apartment after her shift ended,” and that “she was still in uniform when she encountered Mr. Botham Shem Jean inside the apartment.”

Police said it wasn’t clear what interaction occurred between the officer and the victim, but at one point the officer fired her weapon and struck Jean. The officer then called 911, and firefighters transported Jean to a hospital where he died.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ed-man-n907841

There's nothing about how she got in the apartment, if she knocked on the door, what was said between the two (if anything), how the deceased person reacted, how she reacted to the reaction (if she did), how much time transpired, etc.

Some of you seem to be making **** up.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:04 PM   #318
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care what the woman "thought" and I don't get why everybody thinks it changes reality.

Being stupid doesn't make other people a greater threat to you.

She goes into someone else's apartment by mistake, shoots them and people are grinding their gears raw trying to manufacture a scenario where she's still the victim somehow.
Some of us are throwing ideas around looking at the scenario through different eyes to see what we can come up with.* SOP down in the Trials and Errors section. Perhaps it should be moved. In any event, her "state of mind" will come up when this thing goes to trial.


*and I wouldn't say it's a "progressive" thing more like a True Crime (although I hate that term) thing.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:05 PM   #319
casebro
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Her first call was to 911. Before back up got there, she had probably called her Union rep. Who told her to take the 5th. She is not talking. Local cops are stymied, call in the state police, the Texas Rangers. They must figure she is not a flight risk, so not jailed for 'suspicion' while the Rangers investigate?
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:05 PM   #320
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She apparently released the detail that she was at the wrong apartment to someone. Unless it somehow slipped her mind to also mention he was charging at her with a knife or something, this is Murder 2. 'Whoopsie, wrong apartment' or 'gosh, I was tired' or 'I'm just a fearful girlie' means nothing. None of these remotely justify killing an unarmed man.
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