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Old 9th September 2018, 03:12 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
She apparently released the detail that she was at the wrong apartment to someone. Unless it somehow slipped her mind to also mention he was charging at her with a knife or something, this is Murder 2. 'Whoopsie, wrong apartment' or 'gosh, I was tired' or 'I'm just a fearful girlie' means nothing. None of these remotely justify killing an unarmed man.
No it's not. If she's charged at all, the most it will be manslaughter, unless you think she intentionally went into the wrong apartment to kill someone.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:17 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
No it's not. If she's charged at all, the most it will be manslaughter, unless you think she intentionally went into the wrong apartment to kill someone.
That would be Murder 1. Two is without premeditation (broadly speaking).

eta: though I hope she is at least charged with manslaughter. Unless she is hiding a silver bullet, it all says murder to me
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:17 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Some of us are throwing ideas around looking at the scenario through different eyes to see what we can come up with.* SOP down in the Trials and Errors section. Perhaps it should be moved. In any event, her "state of mind" will come up when this thing goes to trial.


*and I wouldn't say it's a "progressive" thing more like a True Crime (although I hate that term) thing.
The scenario I have in mind is:

Tired woman off 12 hour shift mistakes her apartment door for some other. The door's unlocked, she walks in, the apartment is dim, a strange man is there (probably reacting very surprised, maybe coming towards her) and she freaks out and shoots him.

I'm not saying that's how it went down, but that's one way it could have gone down, and I don't see manslaughter there. I definitely don't see murder.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:17 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
People make mistakes. Sometimes inexplicable ones. All we "know" so far is that she thought she was at her own door. I don't find that claim as incredulous as some here seem to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdHpbI8Y7Oo

I always get a little chuckle out of that scene, possibly because I relate it to inexplicable brain farts I have had through my life.

The part I am referring to comes in at 2:00, sorry if I wasted your time watching the first part.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:18 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'm not saying that's how it went down, but that's one way it could have gone down, and I don't see manslaughter there.
Isn't that exactly what manslaughter is?

eta: "the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder."
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:20 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Her first call was to 911. Before back up got there, she had probably called her Union rep. Who told her to take the 5th. She is not talking. Local cops are stymied, call in the state police, the Texas Rangers. They must figure she is not a flight risk, so not jailed for 'suspicion' while the Rangers investigate?
She obviously talked initially and she has since been talking to the Texas Rangers. The Rangers said yesterday that the delay is because they are investigating some things that she told them about the incident. They won't say what those things are.

I don't know if things are different for the police union if the officer was off-duty.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:20 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Link? The links I've seen have almost no specific information about what happened.
You think it more likely that she shot him after standing there looking into an apartment that wasn't hers?
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:21 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That would be Murder 1. Two is without premeditation (broadly speaking).
There doesn't seem to be any malice here, so it won't be a murder charge (unless there's a video of her laughing maniacally as she shoots him).
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:22 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You think it more likely that she shot him after standing there looking into an apartment that wasn't hers?
I think the scenario I gave is pretty likely. The only weird detail is the unlocked door. If the door was locked, then it becomes a much weirder case.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:24 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The scenario I have in mind is:

Tired woman off 12 hour shift mistakes her apartment door for some other. The door's unlocked, she walks in, the apartment is dim, a strange man is there (probably reacting very surprised, maybe coming towards her) and she freaks out and shoots him.

I'm not saying that's how it went down, but that's one way it could have gone down, and I don't see manslaughter there. I definitely don't see murder.
A "strange man" who must have redecorated and/or moved all her stuff out and his own in....
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:26 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That would be Murder 1. Two is without premeditation (broadly speaking).

eta: though I hope she is at least charged with manslaughter. Unless she is hiding a silver bullet, it all says murder to me
Please select from the following options:

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
...Texas appears to have four levels of homicide: murder, capital murder, manslaughter, and criminally negligent homicide.
https://www.zenlawfirm.com/law-blog/...cide-in-texas/
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:28 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Her first call was to 911. Before back up got there, she had probably called her Union rep. Who told her to take the 5th. She is not talking. Local cops are stymied, call in the state police, the Texas Rangers. They must figure she is not a flight risk, so not jailed for 'suspicion' while the Rangers investigate?
She's got to talk at some point, or she has no defense whatsoever.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:28 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think the scenario I gave is pretty likely. The only weird detail is the unlocked door. If the door was locked, then it becomes a much weirder case.
Not necessarily. While she fumbles with keys that don't work in a locked door, he hears the fumbling and heads for the door. She hears noises, draws her gun and when the door opens she thinks "bad guy in my house!" Bang! Not too different.

By your scenario, she would have opened the unlocked door and entered with gun drawn suspecting a burglar, without calling for backup and possibly without identifying herself (we don't know about that). Just as weird.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:28 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Isn't that exactly what manslaughter is?

eta: "the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder."
It depends on state of mind. Just because you kill someone doesn't mean there's a crime. There are all sorts of mitigating circumstances that can come into play.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:29 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You think it more likely that she shot him after standing there looking into an apartment that wasn't hers?
Ive been imagining the scene brightly lit until now. Perhaps only the TV was on or Botham Jean was about to go to bed.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:30 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You think it more likely that she shot him after standing there looking into an apartment that wasn't hers?
As has already been pointed out. We do not know yet how the door was opened.

If it opened for her, she may have walked into a dim room still under the impression that it was her own apartment and been startled by someone who could have been equally as startled and felt the need to react quickly. I am not claiming that is what happened- but at this point it is at least as equally likely than scenarios wherein she gunned down the occupant at his front door.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:31 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I think the scenario I gave is pretty likely. The only weird detail is the unlocked door. If the door was locked, then it becomes a much weirder case.
You don't think finding your front door unlocked would be kind of a red flag?
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:31 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
There doesn't seem to be any malice here, so it won't be a murder charge (unless there's a video of her laughing maniacally as she shoots him).
I'd call all but some self-defense shootings malicious. When you fire a gun at someone, that's quite a bit of malice, unless she is being coy by not releasing game-changing sentence or two that might explain things. Creating a bit of a buzz, maybe.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:32 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not necessarily. While she fumbles with keys that don't work in a locked door, he hears the fumbling and heads for the door. She hears noises, draws her gun and when the door opens she thinks "bad guy in my house!" Bang! Not too different.
It's different in that she doesn't have to enter the apartment. As soon as she hears noises, she should pull out her gun and back away from the door. She would not be in reasonable fear for her life with a door between her and someone else AND carrying a gun.

Quote:
By your scenario, she would have opened the unlocked door and entered with gun drawn suspecting a burglar, without calling for backup and possibly without identifying herself (we don't know about that). Just as weird.
Why would she have to have her gun drawn? She opens the door, sees a guy coming towards her, draws her gun, and shoots. THEN realizes it's the wrong apartment. That's the simplest explanation of what happened.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:35 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
A "strange man" who must have redecorated and/or moved all her stuff out and his own in....
Some people are pretty spare in their attempts to personalize their living space. Perhaps these two were alike that way. Also, could have been dark, in which case she still might have thought she was in her own home when she encountered the victim.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:36 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by CNN
Alyssa Kinsey, Jean's next-door neighbor, told CNN she was home on the phone Thursday night when she heard a shot. She said she then heard what sounded like "running steps" and a female voice calling the police.

Kinsey said she could see from her patio that the lights were turned on in Jean's apartment. She said she heard more footsteps outside her apartment, a woman's voice and a commotion.

The apartment doors at the complex are all similar, Kinsey said, but Jean's doorstep had a bright red mat...
https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/09/09/us/...www.cnn.com%2F
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:37 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You don't think finding your front door unlocked would be kind of a red flag?
Would make me a little edgy. Wouldn't stop me from entering my house though.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:37 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You don't think finding your front door unlocked would be kind of a red flag?
Depends on if you normally lock it or not. But this happened in Dallas, so I'm assuming she would lock her door. That would be a red flag, but not one that would necessarily make you run for the stairs. If she believed it's really her apartment, the fact the door is unlocked door might put her in a suspicious frame of mind. And anecdotally, I often forget to lock the front door when I'm in a rush. Finding it unlocked when I got home wouldn't mean much, but I don't live in an apartment and there's not much crime in my neighborhood.

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Old 9th September 2018, 03:40 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Please select from the following options:
From those descriptions, Murder:

Quote:
Murder: You commit murder when you intentionally and knowingly take someone else’s life, or when you intend to commit an act that is clearly extremely dangerous to human life and in effect, causes death to another person.
Unless she is hiding some awfuly big details, it was murder under your provided definitions.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:40 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She could have turned on the lights after she shot him.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:43 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
From those descriptions, Murder:



Unless she is hiding some awfuly big details, it was murder under your provided definitions.
You commit murder when you intentionally and knowingly take someone else’s life

It depends on your state of mind. If you're killing in self-defense, you're "intentionally and knowingly take someone else’s life", but you're not committing murder.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:44 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
She clearly wasn't too afraid to bang on the door and provoke whoever was inside opening it. If she was as terrified as you would like us to think, why didn't she just hold back and wait for back-up?
What have I said that makes you think I want people to believe she was terrified? She's got to claim that or she has no defense at all for shooting the guy.

And again, you seem to be making up details out of thin air.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:49 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What have I said that makes you think I want people to believe she was terrified? She's got to claim that or she has no defense at all for shooting the guy.

And again, you seem to be making up details out of thin air.
Does she have to claim that? Or is the burden on the state to prove that fear for her life wasn't her state of mind? After all, if she's presumed innocent, the state must prove the crime and in this case, that would mean proving she had a non-reasonable fear for her life.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:50 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
In her other shooting incident someone ran up and grabbed her Taser. Then she shot back at the suspect. It might have made her more paranoid.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:50 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You commit murder when you intentionally and knowingly take someone else’s life

It depends on your state of mind. If you're killing in self-defense, you're "intentionally and knowingly take someone else’s life", but you're not committing murder.
That's what I said. Unless she was being coy when she said she was at the wrong apartment but didn't finish the sentence with 'and he attacked me', it would be murder. Her state of mind is irrelevant to her intention, barring what a reasonable person would constitute as an imminent grave threat.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:56 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
In her other shooting incident someone ran up and grabbed her Taser. Then she shot back at the suspect. It might have made her more paranoid.
It should have made her more cautious. It might have made her more brazen.
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Old 9th September 2018, 03:58 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'm as hard on the cops as many people here, and I'm not seeing that being relevant. She was coming off a long shift. I think Occam's Razor applies here: she was tired, mistook her apartment for someone else's, and freaked out when she saw a black guy in what she thought was her apartment. She's a white woman, so there's obviously a racial element here, and she may have overreacted, but that has yet to be proven.
She shot to death a man who (e.t.a. at least according to some reports) opened the door of his own home to her. I cannot see any way in which that is not overreaction by definition. How much more over can a reaction have been? Setting fire to the place?
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:01 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
She shot to death a man who opened the door of his own home to her. I cannot see any way in which that is not overreaction by definition. How much more over can a reaction have been? Setting fire to the place?
It has still not been released how she got in to the apartment where the shooting occurred.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:03 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
She shot to death a man who opened the door of his own home to her. I cannot see any way in which that is not overreaction by definition. How much more over can a reaction have been? Setting fire to the place?
Additionally, people with guns do not have the luxury of 'freaking out' and shooting people. Police officers really, really do not have this luxury. Toddlers and granddad with dementia may, but we keep the guns away from them for a reason.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:06 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's what I said. Unless she was being coy when she said she was at the wrong apartment but didn't finish the sentence with 'and he attacked me', it would be murder. Her state of mind is irrelevant to her intention, barring what a reasonable person would constitute as an imminent grave threat.
That doesn't even make sense. You can't have an intention without a state of mind. It's a necessary condition.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:09 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
She shot to death a man who (e.t.a. at least according to some reports) opened the door of his own home to her. I cannot see any way in which that is not overreaction by definition. How much more over can a reaction have been? Setting fire to the place?
It's not an overreaction if she legitimately feared for her life. It's tragic because she got the apartments mixed up, but forgetting which door is yours is not something you go to prison for. It's not a criminal act, in and of itself. It led to a chain of events that ended in a guy's death, but the initial act wasn't criminally negligent. I think that's important. She made an innocent mistake and things went from there. The key thing is that it was an innocent mistake.

In other words, she did a non-criminal thing that put her in a certain state of mind. Or that's what she'll probably argue. And if it went down like in my scenario, I think she'll win that argument.

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Old 9th September 2018, 04:19 PM   #357
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At the very least she should be ditched from the cops and banned from owning a gun for a very long time
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:20 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That doesn't even make sense. You can't have an intention without a state of mind. It's a necessary condition.
Conceded, wrong word choice. She is being hypothesized as some sort of unstable idiot. Saying a trained police officer was 'freaking out' and excused or was sleepy and so excused is just ridiculous.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:26 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's not an overreaction if she legitimately feared for her life. It's tragic because she got the apartments mixed up, but forgetting which door is yours is not something you go to prison for. It's not a criminal act, in and of itself. It led to a chain of events that ended in a guy's death, but the initial act was criminally negligent. I think that's important. She made an innocent mistake and things went from there. The key thing is that it was an innocent mistake.

In other words, she did a non-criminal thing that put her in a certain state of mind. Or that's what she'll probably argue. And if it went down like in my scenario, I think she'll win that argument.
The standard for justifying self-defense is what a reasonable person would interpret as being an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Unless she is hiding those four magic words, 'and he attacked me', the wrong apartment thing doesn't matter. Her fears, prejudices, tendency to 'freak out', simply don't matter.
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Old 9th September 2018, 04:26 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Conceded, wrong word choice. She is being hypothesized as some sort of unstable idiot. Saying a trained police officer was 'freaking out' and excused or was sleepy and so excused is just ridiculous.
I don't see why being a cop makes you suddenly immune from panicking. And you don't have to be an idiot to react the way she did. Mistaking the doors was idiotic.
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