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Tags atheism , China incidents , China issues , christian persecution , gosateizm

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Old 13th September 2018, 10:12 AM   #281
dann
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lets go to the Atheist Bible.... little red book version?
(...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

I still assume that this is supposed to mean that Karl Marx's Capital - A Critique of Political Economy is the "Atheist Bible," but not only does Karl Marx have surprisingly little to say about churches, as I already pointed out and quoted in post 250, he also has disappointingly little to say about atheism in the "Atheist Bible." This I all I could find:

Quote:
In the domain of Political Economy, free scientific inquiry meets not merely the same enemies as in all other domains. The peculiar nature of the materials it deals with, summons as foes into the field of battle the most violent, mean and malignant passions of the human breast, the Furies of private interest. The English Established Church, e.g., will more readily pardon an attack on 38 of its 39 articles than on 1/39 of its income. Now-a-days atheism is culpa levis [a relatively slight sin, c.f. mortal sin], as compared with criticism of existing property relations.
(Preface to the first German edition)

I included an awful lot of context in the next and last quoation where atheism is mentioned, just to make sure that you don't miss anything:

Quote:
Dr. Horne, Bishop of Norwich, reproves Adam Smith, because in a published letter to Mr. Strahan, he “embalmed his friend David” (sc. Hume); because he told the world how “Hume amused himself on his deathbed with Lucian and Whist,” and because he even had the impudence to write of Hume: “I have always considered him, both in his life-time and since his death, as approaching as nearly to the idea of a perfectly wise and virtuous man, as, perhaps, the nature of human frailty will permit.” The bishop cries out, in a passion: "Is it right in you, Sir, to hold up to our view as 'perfectly wise and virtuous,' the character and conduct of one, who seems to have been possessed with an incurable antipathy to all that is called Religion; and who strained every nerve to explode, suppression and extirpate the spirit of it among men, that its very name, if he could effect it, might no more be had in remembrance?" (l.c., p. 8) "But let not the lovers of truth be discouraged. Atheism cannot be of long continuance." (p. 17.) Adam Smith "had the atrocious wickedness to propagate atheism through the land (viz., by his "Theory of Moral Sentiments"). Upon the whole, Doctor, your meaning is good; but I think you will not succeed this time. You would persuade us, by the example of David Hume, Esq., that atheism is the only cordial for low spirits, and the proper antidote against the fear of death ... You may smile over Babylon in the ruins and congratulate the hardened Pharaoh on the overthrow in the Red Sea." (l. c., pp. 21, 22.) One orthodox individual, amongst Adam Smith’s college friends, writes after his death: “Smith’s well-placed affection for Hume … hindered him from being a Christian. … When he met with honest men whom he liked … he would believe almost anything they said. Had he been a friend of the worthy ingenious Horrox he would have believed that the moon some times disappeared in a clear sky without the interposition of a cloud. … He approached to republicanism in this political principles.” (“The Bee.” By James Anderson, 18 Vols., Vol 3. pp. 166, 165, Edinburgh, 1791-93.)
(Chapter 33: The Modern Theory of Colonisation)

That's how much atheism is mentioned in the alleged "Atheist Bible"!!!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:28 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I still assume that
ever hear what they say about assuming?
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:29 AM   #283
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How you think is immaterial. May I suggest a strongly worded letter to The Times. And Mr.Xi.

Because China has always been a bastion of fair and free values. I wonder what changed?

Where were you during the Cultural Revolution?
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:43 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
ever hear what they say about assuming?

Yes.
You are the one who posted a link to Wikipedia's article about Das Kapital in a post where you talked about the "Atheist Bible."
Why?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:47 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool! We are off the "mandate" part.

Now we are on to "how you think beliefs work?" Because how TBD thinks they work is "TEH KEY!"

as opposed to, oh I dunno, asking how the Chinese think it works, and how they think it works is that they make people renounce their faith, blow up their churches, restrict their ability to use the internet and put them in reeducation camps.

Oh and they kill tens of thousands of Falun Gong.
Well, if you are going to call a man an atheist because his political leader says that he should be an atheist, then yes, that seems to be an issue particular to you.

I'm not defending the Chinese actions. I am questioning why you are so stuck on calling the people committing those actions atheist when most evidence points to the Chinese culture being run through with various religious beliefs.

As much as you are aghast that you think we are ignoring the clearly atheist cause of these atrocities, we are completely aware that you will never acknowledge the authoritarian roots of these atrocities. Roots that your president has admired jealously.
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:48 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes.
You are the one who posted a link to Wikipedia's article about Das Kapital in a post where you talked about the "Atheist Bible."
Why?!
Take a gander at post 231
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:54 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Well, if you are going to call a man an atheist because his political leader says that he should be an atheist, then yes, that seems to be an issue particular to you.

I'm not defending the Chinese actions. I am questioning why you are so stuck on calling the people committing those actions atheist when most evidence points to the Chinese culture being run through with various religious beliefs.

As much as you are aghast that you think we are ignoring the clearly atheist cause of these atrocities, we are completely aware that you will never acknowledge the authoritarian roots of these atrocities. Roots that your president has admired jealously.
HI! Chinese Culture is not doing this, Xi and the party hacks in the CCP are.

And as much as you are aghast that i am focusing on the clearly atheist cause of these atrocities, trying to limit the focus to "authoritarian roots" does not in any way, shape or form, and has not, does not, and will never contradict what I have just explained.

atheism and authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive, particularly not in countries like China, indeed where the authoritarian structure is imbued with atheism which is why in this case the authoritarians are attacking religious organizations.
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:59 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool! We are off the "mandate" part.

Now we are on to "how you think beliefs work?" Because how TBD thinks they work is "TEH KEY!"

as opposed to, oh I dunno, asking how the Chinese think it works, and how they think it works is that they make people renounce their faith, blow up their churches, restrict their ability to use the internet and put them in reeducation camps.

Oh and they kill tens of thousands of Falun Gong.
How you reconcile that the Chinese authorities appoint Christians to be Bishops, and that the Vatican often confirms that they are indeed Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church with your belief about being forced to be an atheist?
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:04 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How you reconcile that the Chinese authorities appoint Christians to be Bishops, and that the Vatican often confirms that they are indeed Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church with your belief about being forced to be an atheist?
The same way I reconcile John Mccain signing a confession that he was war criminal while in the Hanoi Hilton.

By the way, is there really some confusion that the Chinese are forcing people to renounce their faith??

I have posted several articles on this exact point.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:04 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"slandering"... Hoo boy

"Marxist Atheists put Muslims in cages and demand that they denounce their religion."

And you suggest that suggesting that Atheism had something to do with it is 'slander"?
Yes. Slander, or faulty thinking. These are the only two choices. This is a point you either refuse to understand, or cannot. Either way, oh boy. No surprise, given.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:11 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Yes. Slander, or faulty thinking. These are the only two choices. This is a point you either refuse to understand, or cannot. Either way, oh boy. No surprise, given.
anyone else find a false dichotomy that include the phrase "faulty thinking" as an option deliciously ironic?

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Old 13th September 2018, 11:48 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, literally no chance of anyone conceding an inch of ground when the best argument is that the Marxist atheist crackdown is limited to dissident groups.
I don't think anyone supports China cracking down on any groups, but the huge and obvious flaw in your argument is to emphasize the Chinese government as atheist rather than Marxist and totalitarian.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:50 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Take a gander at post 231

Oh, I see! So you just combined "Atheist Bible" with a link to Wikipedia's article about Das Kapital for no reason at all.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:52 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't think anyone supports China cracking down on any groups, but the huge and obvious flaw in your argument is to emphasize the Chinese government as atheist rather than Marxist and totalitarian.

Since it's running a capitalist country, it would be weird to call it Marxist.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th September 2018 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:54 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't think anyone supports China cracking down on any groups, but the huge and obvious flaw in your argument is to emphasize the Chinese government as atheist rather than Marxist and totalitarian.
I pointed out "the huge and obvious flaw" in your argument.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:55 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Oh, I see! So you just combined "Atheist Bible" with a link to Wikipedia's article about Das Kapital for no reason at all.
wrong again.
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:28 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"Marxist Atheists....."
"Marxist Atheist" goes together well as a combination... like "Priest Paedophilia"
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:31 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The same way I reconcile John Mccain signing a confession that he was war criminal while in the Hanoi Hilton.

By the way, is there really some confusion that the Chinese are forcing people to renounce their faith??

I have posted several articles on this exact point.
That's a sidestep of the question I was asking.
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:31 PM   #299
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this is a very informative thread
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:41 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's a sidestep of the question I was asking.
You ask how "I" reconcile something, "I" answer, and that is your response?

odd.
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Old 13th September 2018, 01:15 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.
Reason ran out of the thread screaming from the first post.
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Old 13th September 2018, 01:25 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Reason ran out of the thread screaming from the first post.
well, I can certainly understand why you feel that way, because you just quoted a post that makes zero sense, and if one used reason, one would instantly see why.
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:00 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
HI! Chinese Culture is not doing this, Xi and the party hacks in the CCP are.

And as much as you are aghast that i am focusing on the clearly atheist cause of these atrocities, trying to limit the focus to "authoritarian roots" does not in any way, shape or form, and has not, does not, and will never contradict what I have just explained.

atheism and authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive, particularly not in countries like China, indeed where the authoritarian structure is imbued with atheism which is why in this case the authoritarians are attacking religious organizations.
You know those party hacks are people, right? People who grew up in the culture of . . . China.

The reason the atheist aspect of this doesn't bother me is that it isn't the driving philosophy for these attacks. There is no tenet of atheism that drives one to attack churches. The driving philosophy is authoritarianism: squash anything that threatens your power. Trump would love to be able to do the same thing, while pretending to be Christian. He has said as much in his jealous admiration of Xi. That's what bothers me.
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:10 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You know those party hacks are people, right? People who grew up in the culture of . . . China.

The reason the atheist aspect of this doesn't bother me is that it isn't the driving philosophy for these attacks. There is no tenet of atheism that drives one to attack churches. The driving philosophy is authoritarianism: squash anything that threatens your power.
Atheism has tenets now does it? However, what we in fact see is that there are some atheists who are happy go lucky types (these ain't them), while there are others that are authoritarians who would gladly destroy religious faith (heck a few of them even post here). many of those are followers of Marxism, like these ******* thugs.

I did modestly suggest that I would be happy to refer to them as marxist atheists (because quite honestly the whining and woe is me around here was getting a bit much.... "hate speech"... oh brother)
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Old 13th September 2018, 04:04 PM   #305
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Modestly! Ha.
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Old 13th September 2018, 05:07 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Atheism has tenets now does it?
If atheism doesn't have tenets, what underlying principle or doctrine motivates the actions of the Chinese government in these crackdowns?
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Old 13th September 2018, 05:58 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Atheism has tenets now does it?
Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
If atheism doesn't have tenets, what underlying principle or doctrine motivates the actions of the Chinese government in these crackdowns?

No atheism has no tenets, atheism has a lack of tenets.

The Big Dog has been on about this on many times before on other threads. It is tedious. Atheism does not have any doctrine to tell those who lack belief in mystical beings to go out and convert others. What the Chinese government does is not motivated by atheism.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:04 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
If atheism doesn't have tenets, what underlying principle or doctrine motivates the actions of the Chinese government in these crackdowns?
I was asking a question to our intrepid correspondent.

To answer your question: Marxist Atheist hate.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:17 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was asking a question to our intrepid correspondent.

To answer your question: Marxist Atheist hate.
Did you get that from the Atheist Bible?
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:17 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was asking a question to our intrepid correspondent.

To answer your question: Marxist Atheist hate.
Nearly right. 5/10.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:22 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did you get that from the Atheist Bible?
Oh man...

Hee hee!
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:23 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh man...

Hee hee!
You're right - it is laughable.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:23 PM   #313
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I think TBD has a point here! But it isn't atheism that is the driving force for Marxist idealogues. It's brown suits. Take a look - what do they all have in common? All of them, without exception, wore some sort of brown suit. Not the nice black or dark blue ones like good Christians wear. Brown.

So let's get down on brown!





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Old 13th September 2018, 06:24 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Nearly right. 5/10.
Nearly right:

Atheist Hate.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:27 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nearly right:

Atheist Hate.
No, brown suits! I've just explained they all have brown suits in common! Get with the programme! The Five Year Programme!
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:44 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You're right - it is laughable.
Which is why I explained that I was using it to mock your arguments, great to see you have such a great sense of humor about it.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:45 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I think TBD has a point here! But it isn't atheism that is the driving force for Marxist idealogues. It's brown suits. Take a look - what do they all have in common? All of them, without exception, wore some sort of brown suit. Not the nice black or dark blue ones like good Christians wear. Brown.

So let's get down on brown!

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images...c_400x400.jpeg

https://78.media.tumblr.com/avatar_eec991de1f57_128.pnj

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...06178286-1.jpg
All atheists, all history’s greatest monsters.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:46 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Which is why I explained that I was using it to mock your arguments, great to see you have such a great sense of humor about it.
Well at this stage it's either laugh at you or punch you in the face, and I'm an pacifist so I was left with only that option.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:55 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
All atheists, all history’s greatest monsters.
No, it's the BROWN SUITS! Surely you can see that all history's greatest monsters wore brown suits in common?

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Old 13th September 2018, 06:56 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well at this stage it's either laugh at you or punch you in the face, and I'm an pacifist so I was left with only that option.
I'm not, but why waste a good punch.

It's very much like the parable of the chess playing pigeon. Baruch 5:13
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