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Old 11th September 2018, 12:49 PM   #1
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General discussion about civil war monuments, history of civil war etc.

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Posted By:Darat
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Maybe some did. I don’t know.

But what I do know is that they fought for the United States of America, and not against it.

The Confederacy was an enemy nation founded by traitors to our country.

Monuments to the Confederacy and those who fought for it are monuments to treason.
Do you have a list of Confederates who were tried for treason? There were millions of Confederates, but I'll settle for say -- five. If they were all traitors at least five of them should have been tried and executed for treason.

Would you say the Vietnam Memorial is a monument to battle against Communism or a monument to the people who fought and died there?

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Old 11th September 2018, 12:56 PM   #2
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If what the Confederates did was not treason, what the hell constitutes treason?
They were "Levying war against the United States" and that is specified in the Constituion as an act of treason.
And a few of the confederate leaders came close to being tried for Treason, but the decision was made not to prosecute them since that would only prolong the process of tyring to put the country together again. There are quite a few cases where the government thinks a crime had been commited, but declines to prosecute since nothing will be gained by a prosecution.
You seem pretty ignorant of history...just like your Dear Leader.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:00 PM   #3
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In which BrooklynBaby Ė in his feverish defense of All Things Trump Ė needs to be convinced that the Confederacy was an act of treason:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a list of Confederates who were tried for treason? There were millions of Confederates, but I'll settle for say -- five. If they were all traitors at least five of them should have been tried and executed for treason.

At this point, you might want to take some time for personal reflection.

Quote:
Would you say the Vietnam Memorial is a monument to battle against Communism or a monument to the people who fought and died there?

It's a monument to the soldiers of the United States who fought and died there. Itís not a monument to those they fought against.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It's a monument to the soldiers of the United States who fought and died there. Itís not a monument to those they fought against.
It's been a while since I was there, but I'm pretty sure there is a Viet-Cong Memorial just across the way on the courthouse lawn. Like how every town in Europe has their Hitler statue on the courthouse steps.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:07 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I see, like most lefties you believe -- based on nothing -- that people who fight in wars are fighting for a cause. You believe the Americans who were drafted and fought in Vietnam did so because of their crusade against Communism. Is that correct?
How about marching with Nazis? Is that a patriotic thing for an American to be doing? Is that the sort of thing fine people do?

Jesus, we are going to have another thread fall down the rabbit hole of confederate memorials and why they are so freaking fantastic.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
In which BrooklynBaby Ė in his feverish defense of All Things Trump Ė needs to be convinced that the Confederacy was an act of treason:



At this point, you might want to take some time for personal reflection.




It's a monument to the soldiers of the United States who fought and died there. Itís not a monument to those they fought against.
Hey, the Trump Cultist are like their boss...incapable of ever admitting they made a mistake.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It's been a while since I was there, but I'm pretty sure there is a Viet-Cong Memorial just across the way on the courthouse lawn.
They actually moved it across town to Ho Chi Minh Memorial Park last year.

Quote:
Like how every town in Europe has their Hitler statue on the courthouse steps.
In fairness, statues are the only way we have to remember history.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
They actually moved it across town to Ho Chi Minh Memorial Park last year.
I was wondering if they got the Hanoi Hilton Staff Memorial up before McCain passed.



Quote:
In fairness, statues are the only way we have to remember history.
Indeed.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If what the Confederates did was not treason, what the hell constitutes treason?
They were "Levying war against the United States" and that is specified in the Constituion as an act of treason.
And a few of the confederate leaders came close to being tried for Treason, but the decision was made not to prosecute them since that would only prolong the process of tyring to put the country together again. There are quite a few cases where the government thinks a crime had been commited, but declines to prosecute since nothing will be gained by a prosecution.
You seem pretty ignorant of history...just like your Dear Leader.
Not to mention they spun off the KKK, a terrorist organization, to further suppress blacks. Had our own ISIS right here in the U.S.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Like how every town in Europe has their Hitler statue on the courthouse steps.
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm?
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm?
I'm not sure - do you think Dr Keith has visited the Ho Chi Min Memorial park in Arlington?

Or that he's not addicted to coke, but likes the way it smells.
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a list of Confederates who were tried for treason? There were millions of Confederates, but I'll settle for say -- five. If they were all traitors at least five of them should have been tried and executed for treason.
No, unfortunately we don't. After Lincoln was assassinated Johnson did his utmost to welcome the traitors back into the Union. Part of that was to not have a "reign of terror" against the leaders of the Confederacy. All a soldier or a member of the CSA government had to do was announce that they weren't really traitors and would never rise up against the union. No, really, I swear it, ha ha ha!

Confederate officers, big business slave holders and slave traders made up the governments of the newly returned states. It was the biggest mistake the Union made after the war. At minimum, rebelling against your country should limit your opportunities in the politics of that country.

Quote:
Would you say the Vietnam Memorial is a monument to battle against Communism or a monument to the people who fought and died there?
Which one? The better one is commemoration to the U.S. dead. I've been there and I've done my crying. That's the monument that was so opposed by the warmongers on the right, remember? The ones who then gathered the funds to put up a more conventional "Here's Your Brave Fighting Boys Fighting for Your Freedoms" type statuary and was prompted and promoted by noted right wing kvetchers that The Wall was not sufficiently traditional. Veterans and families visit the former in droves. The latter is walked past on your way to somewhere else.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a list of Confederates who were tried for treason? There were millions of Confederates, but I'll settle for say -- five. If they were all traitors at least five of them should have been tried and executed for treason.

Would you say the Vietnam Memorial is a monument to battle against Communism or a monument to the people who fought and died there?
I don't think you would have to read too too much history to understand that amnesty was a vital part of the effort made by the victorious Union to reunite the country. The granting of amnesty for treason is inherently and by definition NOT a denial that treason occurred.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I see, like most lefties you believe -- based on nothing -- that people who fight in wars are fighting for a cause. You believe the Americans who were drafted and fought in Vietnam did so because of their crusade against Communism. Is that correct?
How many veterans of your civil war were matching with the Nazis?
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I see, like most lefties you believe -- based on nothing -- that people who fight in wars are fighting for a cause. You believe the Americans who were drafted and fought in Vietnam did so because of their crusade against Communism. Is that correct?
It's so cute when you talk about things you have no knowledge of.

Conscripts in Vietnam? 25%
Do YOU believe that the 75% volunteers, reservists, guardsmen... perhaps were fighting to stop the scary-dary domino theory? I lived through those times. If you did you were asleep. Draft resisters were common in Boston, San Francisco and New York, but we were still such a minority that we ran the risk of getting the **** beat out of us when we passed the WTC construction site. The majority of the country were gung ho patriots and only got concerned when their numbers (or their firstborn heirs' numbers) got called.

What they believed they were fighting, as I hear it, radically changed upon arrival at Da Nang. But they went over to fight for the cause, the redwhiteandblue and to keep the commies in check. "If we don't stop 'em there, pretty soon we'll be fighting 'em on the beaches in California!"

And for those who think that Vietnam was arbitrary and WWII was a "noble cause"? 65% of the US soldiers in WWII were conscripts.

As to the Confederacy? Those poor brave boys who were taken advantage of and exploited by the boohisshiss evil slave owners? What that was was a whopping 12%. This is another in a series of Lost Cause Lies. The non slave owners had a major interest in maintaining the status quo and the status quo was a slave economy. The entire economy of the south, from the blacksmith to the feed lot to the general store... they all sat on a foundation of human chattel.

Und, finally..... Charlottesville wasn't about the anonymous DAC promoted fighting man. It was about statues of leaders of the Confederacy.

On a scale of zero to ten, your response and your understanding get a minus four.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:10 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't miss that guy. What a colossal troll.
It's possible that you missed the entire 'dance on his grave' thread.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:42 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm not sure - do you think Dr Keith has visited the Ho Chi Min Memorial park in Arlington?

Or that he's not addicted to coke, but likes the way it smells.
It's an acquired smell, so some people just don't understand. Can't get past that first sting.
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Old 12th September 2018, 07:02 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There are quite a few cases where the government thinks a crime had been commited, but declines to prosecute since nothing will be gained by a prosecution.
Japan post-WWII comes to mind.

Also Germany.

Sometimes they decline to prosecute because something can be gained, as well.

Wernher von Braun was not an isolated example. Some sixteen hundred of his best buddies came along.

We even found some uses for SS and other such 'specialists'.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:06 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's so cute when you talk about things you have no knowledge of.

Conscripts in Vietnam? 25%
Do YOU believe that the 75% volunteers, reservists, guardsmen... perhaps were fighting to stop the scary-dary domino theory? I lived through those times. If you did you were asleep. Draft resisters were common in Boston, San Francisco and New York, but we were still such a minority that we ran the risk of getting the **** beat out of us when we passed the WTC construction site. The majority of the country were gung ho patriots and only got concerned when their numbers (or their firstborn heirs' numbers) got called.

What they believed they were fighting, as I hear it, radically changed upon arrival at Da Nang. But they went over to fight for the cause, the redwhiteandblue and to keep the commies in check. "If we don't stop 'em there, pretty soon we'll be fighting 'em on the beaches in California!"

And for those who think that Vietnam was arbitrary and WWII was a "noble cause"? 65% of the US soldiers in WWII were conscripts.

As to the Confederacy? Those poor brave boys who were taken advantage of and exploited by the boohisshiss evil slave owners? What that was was a whopping 12%. This is another in a series of Lost Cause Lies. The non slave owners had a major interest in maintaining the status quo and the status quo was a slave economy. The entire economy of the south, from the blacksmith to the feed lot to the general store... they all sat on a foundation of human chattel.

Und, finally..... Charlottesville wasn't about the anonymous DAC promoted fighting man. It was about statues of leaders of the Confederacy.

On a scale of zero to ten, your response and your understanding get a minus four.
My comment was only about the people who were drafted and sent to Vietnam and their motivation for fighting. This is in response to the massive generalization by lefties that in wars soldier only fight for a cause. You're talking about a bunch of other stuff that is unrelated to that point. What you need to prove here is that the people who were FORCED to go over there and fight and die did so because they were fighting for a cause, not because they had no real choice in the matter, and for them it was simply "us against the enemy" and fighting for each other to try to stay alive.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:09 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
My comment was only about the people who were drafted and sent to Vietnam and their motivation for fighting. This is in response to the massive generalization by lefties that in wars soldier only fight for a cause. You're talking about a bunch of other stuff that is unrelated to that point. What you need to prove here is that the people who were FORCED to go over there and fight and die did so because they were fighting for a cause, not because they had no real choice in the matter, and for them it was simply "us against the enemy" and fighting for each other to try to stay alive.
No one has to prove your delusions.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:12 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No one has to prove your delusions.
What you're trying to say is you can't come up with an adequate response, so a personal attack is the only alternative.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:18 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
What you're trying to say is you can't come up with an adequate response, so a personal attack is the only alternative.
Nope. What you're describing is a straw man of your own making. A delusion if you actually believe it.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
My comment was only about the people who were drafted and sent to Vietnam and their motivation for fighting. This is in response to the massive generalization by lefties that in wars soldier only fight for a cause. You're talking about a bunch of other stuff that is unrelated to that point. What you need to prove here is that the people who were FORCED to go over there and fight and die did so because they were fighting for a cause, not because they had no real choice in the matter, and for them it was simply "us against the enemy" and fighting for each other to try to stay alive.
As a "leftie", I disagree. As someone who lived through that era, I'd also have to disagree. Vietnam was hugely unpopular among the age group of those being drafted exactly because the were being forced to fight in a war they did not support.

Can you cite any sources that support you claim that "lefties" claim "in wars soldier only fight for a cause"?
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:26 AM   #24
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You haven't said a word to counter my argument, and there is no strawman in sight. If you don't want to engage in a discussion, why are you here?
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As a "leftie", I disagree. As someone who lived through that era, I'd also have to disagree. Vietnam was hugely unpopular among the age group of those being drafted exactly because the were being forced to fight in a war they did not support.

Can you cite any sources that support you claim that "lefties" claim "in wars soldier only fight for a cause"?
Yes, this started with claims the Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery. You are making the same point I'm making, and in fact did make above.

Last edited by BrooklynBaby; 12th September 2018 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Yes, this started with claims the Confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery. You are making the same point I'm making, and in fact did make above.
So why the statues to the Generals who were fighting for slavery, as opposed to the small proportion of Confederate soldiers who were drafted?
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:40 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
You haven't said a word to counter my argument, and there is no strawman in sight. If you don't want to engage in a discussion, why are you here?
To point out you are wrong. Drop your straw men if you want discussion.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So why the statues to the Generals who were fighting for slavery, as opposed to the small proportion of Confederate soldiers who were drafted?
I'm not talking about the statues, but Robert E. Lee was not fighting for slavery, he was fighting for his homeland. Dems need to understand -- although this may be an impossible task -- that all wars are "us against them". The soldiers in WW1 certainly didn't know what "cause" they were fight for because we're still trying to figure that out a hundred years later. It's like the war was the football and the leaders in Europe were the monkeys playing with it. (I'm reading Barbara Tuchman's "The Guns of August" right now.)
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:12 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I'm not talking about the statues, but Robert E. Lee was not fighting for slavery, he was fighting for his homeland.
They should probably put the memorials and monuments to him there, then.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:12 AM   #30
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Wrong, BB.
Since a majority of Southern soldiers came from families that owned slaves, they were very much fighting to keep their way of prosperity.
Any other interpretation is Fake History.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Wrong, BB.
Since a majority of Southern soldiers came from families that owned slaves, they were very much fighting to keep their way of prosperity.
Any other interpretation is Fake History.
Do you have a source for this? Slaves were very expensive, and the Confederate soldiers were often without food and shoes.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:32 AM   #32
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Lee's actual views on slavery, and how he treated the slaves his wife owned

A little more complicated than is perhaps often made out. What is not complicated, though, is that he was against Confederate monuments. So he'd have been in favour of his statue coming down.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:36 AM   #33
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Interestingly, Robert E. Lee himself "opposed building public memorials to the rebellion, saying they would just keep open the war's many wounds."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/u...ts-legacy.html

I gather he would not have agreed with Trump's views on these matters.

[Added] Damn you Squeegee Beckenheim! Couldn't you have typed a little bit slower?

Last edited by Giordano; 12th September 2018 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Nija'd
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Wrong, BB.
Since a majority of Southern soldiers came from families that owned slaves, they were very much fighting to keep their way of prosperity.
Any other interpretation is Fake History.
I don't have the figures on hand, but I would really question if a majority of Condederate Soldiers came from Slave Owning families just because of the demographics involved.
Which does not change the fact that the Confederate Army was fighting to preserve slavery.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:42 AM   #35
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Still fascinated by how a discussion of the NRY op ed peace got tranfromed into another Civil war discussion.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:43 AM   #36
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a source for this? Slaves were very expensive, and the Confederate soldiers were often without food and shoes.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...-slavery-1860/

In South Carolina and Mississippi, about 50% of Households owned slaves. In the rest of the Confederacy, it was closer to 25%.
But the big plantation owners were major employers of non-slaves for oversight and all other kinds of "important" work: without them, the economy of most places did collapse.
If a company is the biggest employer in your area, it doesn't matter whether you own stock in it: your prosperity is tied to its prosperity.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:43 AM   #37
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But that our biggest ...and blindest..Trump supporters feels such a passionate need to defend the Confederacy is pretty damn interesting.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:45 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But that our biggest ...and blindest..Trump supporters feels such a passionate need to defend the Confederacy is pretty damn interesting.
Indeed -if you are arguing that it wasn't a treasonous war because nobody was tried for treason, then you have set yourself an unrealistically high bar.
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But that our biggest ...and blindest..Trump supporters feels such a passionate need to defend the Confederacy is pretty damn interesting.
But black guys kneeling during the National Anthem is disrespectful to our country.
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Old 12th September 2018, 11:18 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
[Added] Damn you Squeegee Beckenheim! Couldn't you have typed a little bit slower?
I believe his answer should be: "keep up, grandpa!"
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