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Old 13th September 2018, 07:14 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Like all politicians, they spoke in code to frame the issue in the way they think it looks best for them.

"It's about slavery", doesn't sound that good. "It's about state's rights" with an unspoken "to maintain slavery" sounds better.

It's like modern day "He's a strict constitutionalist" is code for "he might someday vote to overturn Roe v Wade". They're not fooling anyone.
It was spoken. They weren't hiding their views at all. From the SC causes of succession, for example:

Quote:
The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.
The south shifted to using claims about "states' rights" as "cover" during the civil rights era, where it was code for "states' rights to maintain segregation".
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Old 13th September 2018, 07:16 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've been sleeping.

Were any specific rights (reserved to the states in the 1860s) finally named in the interim?

Not a single one that wasn't directly related to slavery.
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Old 13th September 2018, 07:21 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
"Technically doesn't count" -- it's merely an opinion. They weren't traitors, as determined by the U.S. Government.
Do you think they were traitors?
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Old 13th September 2018, 08:38 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Re the highlighted part: Lee did not fight to perpetuate slavery in and of itself; he fought to maintain the concept of states' rights with slavery being a part of that. Few know that Lee was actually offered the command of the Union Armies by Lincoln, but he could not fight against his beloved Virginia and resigned his US Army commission.

This is only an example of the abysmal state of knowledge about our history which is so unfortunately widespread in our country.

Anyone who has devoted even the most trivial effort to learning about the Civil War knows this fact.

There is an abundance of facts which many people do not know about the wars which our country has fought in. A not unusual response to a comment about WWII is "Which one was that?".

In the face of such widespread ignorance it is pretty easy to pick out basic facts which most people are unaware of. Few people know that Benedict Arnold was one of the Revolutionary War's most celebrated heroes before he wasn't.

Are there a lot of statues in his honor?
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Old 13th September 2018, 08:41 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
<snip>

In Germany you won't find statues of Nazi generals, but you can find shrines and monuments for the ordinary soldier.

<snip>

Were they erected all over the country during a resurgence of racism and bigotry specifically to intimidate the the victims and descendants of victims of the Nazis?
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Old 13th September 2018, 08:49 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
None of this explains why the United States should have memorials and monuments to enemy combatants.
I wonder how they'd feel about a statue of Rommell in DC.

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Do you think they were traitors?
"It doesn't matter what I think" in 3...2....1...
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Old 13th September 2018, 08:59 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wonder how they'd feel about a statue of Rommell in DC.
How about statues of the 9/11 hijackers in Lower Manhattan?

You know, because history.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:03 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How about statues of the 9/11 hijackers in Lower Manhattan?

You know, because history.
They were fighting for their way of life, after all.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:08 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
They were fighting for their way of life, after all.
And they didn't own slaves.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:14 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
In Germany you won't find statues of Nazi generals, but you can find shrines and monuments for the ordinary soldier.
Okay I feel that a really big, should but apparently isn't really obvious point is being missed here.

Germany gets to decide what monuments it gets to put up in it's own country because, and here's the important part, Germany was and still is a country.

The Confederacy was never a country and, and again this part is very important and I think people are just aggressively not getting, it most certainly isn't a country now.

The Confederacy can put up statues to whoever it wants in its own country, but there's no country.

Germany doesn't get to demand that England put up statues to German soldiers on German land.

The Confederate Apologist are still trying to paint the conflict as some noble gentleman's war of equals with the Confederacy still being this thing that exist and gets a say in stuff instead of the treasonous and rebellious uprising (that was never at any point recognized as it's own country I should point out) that it was.

Like I'm being really serious when I say everyone gets that right? That the Confederacy doesn't exist anymore, to whatever extent it ever existed? The Confederacy isn't some puppet state that the Union is occupying. IT DOESN'T EXIST. This isn't even remotely equivalent to a Germany putting up monuments to its soldiers.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:32 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay I feel that a really big, should but apparently isn't really obvious point is being missed here.

Germany gets to decide what monuments it gets to put up in it's own country because, and here's the important part, Germany was and still is a country.

The Confederacy was never a country and, and again this part is very important and I think people are just aggressively not getting, it most certainly isn't a country now.
Sparta isn't a country but there's a statue of Leonidas somewhere near there.

The problem isn't whether it's a country. It's whether the statues represent something that goes against the basic principles of the country as it stands now. Of course, that leaves the question of whether founding fathers who owned slaves should be removed as well, or if we tolerate that and only remove outright traitors.
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Old 13th September 2018, 10:11 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Of course, that leaves the question of whether founding fathers who owned slaves should be removed as well, or if we tolerate that and only remove outright traitors.
The following point has been made elsewhere, but the issue isn’t whether or not those that we honor and memorialize are flawless human beings, but rather what the totality of their contributions to our nation represents in terms of historical significance.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave-owners. This is not in dispute. But we honor and memorialize them because they are better known for the achievements they contributed to the founding of our country.

Robert E. Lee is remembered for one thing: Leading a treasonous revolt against the United States.

That’s why people like Washington and Jefferson get memorials, and people like Lee shouldn’t.

Last edited by johnny karate; 13th September 2018 at 11:07 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:28 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
"The facts don't support my opinion. It must be reality that's wrong."
Is that you, Donald?
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:35 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
None of this explains why the United States should have memorials and monuments to enemy combatants.
It depends on the circumstances.
There is a monument at Saratoga to the members of a Highland regiment who died there. It was funded by private means, the only US government involment was granted them a small lot of land to build the memorial.
There is alos a monument to the Lakota who died at Little Big Horn.
I agree that the Confederate monuments and statues should be taken down from courthouses and other places of honor, but am not sure you want to go to Gettysburg and remove all the monuments there.....
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Old 13th September 2018, 12:50 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sparta isn't a country but there's a statue of Leonidas somewhere near there.

The problem isn't whether it's a country. It's whether the statues represent something that goes against the basic principles of the country as it stands now. Of course, that leaves the question of whether founding fathers who owned slaves should be removed as well, or if we tolerate that and only remove outright traitors.
The Jim Crow era monuments and statues were very overtly, undeniably erected to reinforce and symbolize white supremacy over the freed slaves as slavery's replacement social system. That was their point.

The one in Memphis was a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, first grand wizard of the KKK, the one in New Orleans said this, etc and so on.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2018-09-13 at 2.51.45 PM.jpg (34.0 KB, 3 views)
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Old 13th September 2018, 01:16 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What part of "I do not deny that slavery was the overriding concern of these "rights" that they feared would be taken from them. But it was not the only right they feared losing," are you not understanding?
I do not claim that slavery was not the most important issue for them, merely that it was not their only concern. I don't know how much more clear I can make that. See the Articles of Secession...especially that of S. Carolina which clearly stated that they feared their RIGHTS were being violated. Sheesh.
Some people get very snarky if you even hint that slavery was not the exclusive contributing factor in the Confederate secession. You could say that 99.9% of the reason was slavery and 0.1% was other reasons such as tariffs and other States' rights, some will still call you out on the 0.1%.

It should be compulsory for participants in Civil War threads to watch Ken Burns' outstanding documentary series "The Civil War". It might be 30 years old now, but IMO it was, and still is, the Gold Standard for education about that war.

"Many factors contributed to the Civil War. One caused it: slavery.”
- Ken Burns
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Old 13th September 2018, 04:03 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It depends on the circumstances.
There is a monument at Saratoga to the members of a Highland regiment who died there. It was funded by private means, the only US government involment was granted them a small lot of land to build the memorial.
There is alos a monument to the Lakota who died at Little Big Horn.

The statues erected to the Confederacy which infested the entire country (not just the South) during the height of the resurgence of brutality against blacks and of Jim Crow were nearly all funded by private means.

Mostly by the United Daughters of the Confederacy or their competitors for primacy among the racists. (Yes, they had competitors. the competition as to who was foremost in re-imaging and re-invigorating White Supremacy could be virulent at times, especially among the women's groups. The men were more likely to combine forces. Go figure.)

Quote:

I agree that the Confederate monuments and statues should be taken down from courthouses and other places of honor, but am not sure you want to go to Gettysburg and remove all the monuments there.....

Good. I think that is the position which most of the people objecting to these statues have taken. Especially the ones in town squares, or front of courthouses, legislative buildings, and other government venues. I don't generally have a problem with plaques on battlefields.

I think that when, why, and by whom they were erected is also an important consideration.
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Old 13th September 2018, 05:53 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Were they erected all over the country during a resurgence of racism and bigotry specifically to intimidate the the victims and descendants of victims of the Nazis?
Don't know. I have been to one near Garmisch. It is not in the town square so to speak, it's out in the countryside at the foot of the mountains. But then so are many UK war memorials.

To be fair, it didn't appear to be a Nazi memorial, it appeared to be for local people who dies in the conflict. I don't think there are many memorials in Germany, but there are some. I think WWII Germany was probably a bad example though due to the nature of the regime.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:20 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The southern plantation owners were the wealthiest people anywhere in the whole world,
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And no, the plantation owners were not the wealthiest people in the world. Where you got that idea, I have no idea.
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The written historical record is our only source of information on the topic.


https://www.tnonline.com/2013/jan/19...t-town-america


There was also a "bubble" in the value of slaves, predicated upon the expansion of slavery into new territories westward, related to the Dred Scott decision.

https://cloudfront.escholarship.org/...qt56m1k703.pdf
I never disputed that much of the wealth of pre-Civil war America resided in the South.
You claimed they were the "wealthiest people in the world". Your evidence does not support that. Their wealth paled in comparison to the czars of Russia and the banking Rothschilds family. Perhaps you meant "in the US"? Even so, John Jacob Astor was the wealthiest pre-Civil War man in the US.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:32 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Some people get very snarky if you even hint that slavery was not the exclusive contributing factor in the Confederate secession. You could say that 99.9% of the reason was slavery and 0.1% was other reasons such as tariffs and other States' rights, some will still call you out on the 0.1%.

It should be compulsory for participants in Civil War threads to watch Ken Burns' outstanding documentary series "The Civil War". It might be 30 years old now, but IMO it was, and still is, the Gold Standard for education about that war.

"Many factors contributed to the Civil War. One caused it: slavery.”
- Ken Burns
Agreed. It's amazing how upset people got when I dared to say that slavery wasn't the SOLE cause of the Civil War. Heresy! You'd think I was somehow defending slavery.
At least a few episodes, if not all episodes, of Ken Burns' series should be required viewing by every high school US History class. Sometimes I think most people get their views of the Civil War from watching Gone With the Wind.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:36 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I never disputed that much of the wealth of pre-Civil war America resided in the South.
You claimed they were the "wealthiest people in the world". Your evidence does not support that. Their wealth paled in comparison to the czars of Russia and the banking Rothschilds family. Perhaps you meant "in the US"? Even so, John Jacob Astor was the wealthiest pre-Civil War man in the US.
Their wealth was held in the form of assets - slaves - and the value of slave "stock" was skyrocketing with no end in sight.

It's very difficult to compare that sort of net worth to European gold, but as a group, it's difficult (I'd argue impossible) to find peers to the plantation owners in terms of wealth.
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Old 13th September 2018, 06:43 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. It's amazing how upset people got when I dared to say that slavery wasn't the SOLE cause of the Civil War.
They weren't going to send their sons to die in war over the tariffs.
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Old 14th September 2018, 12:20 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Their wealth was held in the form of assets - slaves - and the value of slave "stock" was skyrocketing with no end in sight.

It's very difficult to compare that sort of net worth to European gold, but as a group, it's difficult (I'd argue impossible) to find peers to the plantation owners in terms of wealth.
I do not disagree at all that the some plantation owners were extremely wealthy as a group. Most Southerners, however, owned no slaves at all.


Quote:
Large slaveholders were extremely rare. In 1860 only 11,000 Southerners, three-quarters of one percent of the white population owned more than 50 slaves; a mere 2,358 owned as many as 100 slaves. However, although large slaveholders were few in number, they owned most of the South’s slaves. Over half of all slaves lived on plantations with 20 or more slaves and a quarter lived on plantations with more than 50 slaves.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/dis...ID=2&psid=3557

When I was researching my genealogy, I was surprised to find roots in the South. This branch was unknown to me until I identified my father's biological father whom he never knew (adopted). I had two ancestors who fought for the Confederacy, one dying in battle at the start of the war. But more surprising was to find several were small time slave owners. It was disconcerting to read their wills where they discussed the distribution of these slaves to their wives/children.
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Old 14th September 2018, 12:39 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They weren't going to send their sons to die in war over the tariffs.
Oh, I dunno about that. One of biggest causes of the Revolutionary War was anger due to having to pay burdensome taxes they had no voice in levying. Remember "No taxation without Representation?
Tariffs were taxes imposed on Southern states in 1828 (Tariff of Abominations) and 1832 which S. Carolina claimed were unconstitutional and threatened to secede. The president was prepared to send federal troops into S. Carolina and the state was prepared to use its militia to respond. Only a compromise tariff succeeded in avoiding secession and military conflict.
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:11 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, I dunno about that. One of biggest causes of the Revolutionary War was anger due to having to pay burdensome taxes they had no voice in levying. Remember "No taxation without Representation?
If I recall my high-school American History correctly, one of those was called "The American Revenue Act of 1764" which became known as "the sugar tax"

Also, a few years later, something called "The Tea Act", which allowed Britain to import tea into the Colonies without paying any import tax, led to the famous "Boston Tea Party".

In one case, unfair taxes being levied, and in another case, fair taxes being withheld. The Colonies went to war over this... people do go to war over taxes and tariffs and to gain and maintain their rights.
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:20 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I do not disagree at all that the some plantation owners were extremely wealthy as a group. Most Southerners, however, owned no slaves at all.
This is misleading in two ways:
first, as we have established, a sizeable percentage of households did own slaves.

Secondly: most of the industry of the South was organized around Slave plantations. So even if people didn't own slaves, their jobs were very often tied to the production or logistics of slave-operated farms.

The fact is that the economic well-being of most Southerns, wealthy and poor, slave-owners or not, was tied to the slavery-based economy. Abolitionism would have caused a total economic collapse.
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Old 14th September 2018, 02:29 AM   #147
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Just saw this, and it seems relevant: https://twitter.com/lachlan/status/1040022715808264193

Quote:
This is just beautiful
2 minute video embedded in tweet.
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Old 14th September 2018, 02:42 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, I dunno about that. One of biggest causes of the Revolutionary War was anger due to having to pay burdensome taxes they had no voice in levying. Remember "No taxation without Representation?
Tariffs were taxes imposed on Southern states in 1828 (Tariff of Abominations) and 1832 which S. Carolina claimed were unconstitutional and threatened to secede. The president was prepared to send federal troops into S. Carolina and the state was prepared to use its militia to respond. Only a compromise tariff succeeded in avoiding secession and military conflict.
With the Nullification Crisis, it was one state, and they were saying they weren't going to pay it and stating that if troops marched in to force payment, they'd fight back. It didn't go anywhere and in the end they were reduced to arguing over the nature of the form jailing people for non-payment.

But even the skirmish over the tariff was really about...wait for it...maintaining slavery.

Quote:
The clamor for "Southern Rights," as the rebel journals were pleased to designate their rallying cry, was not to secure their assumed rights in the Union and under the Constitution, but to disrupt the Government and establish an independent organization, based upon Slavery, which they could at all times control.
https://books.google.com/books?id=8U...on.%22&f=false
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:02 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If I recall my high-school American History correctly, one of those was called "The American Revenue Act of 1764" which became known as "the sugar tax"

Also, a few years later, something called "The Tea Act", which allowed Britain to import tea into the Colonies without paying any import tax, led to the famous "Boston Tea Party".

In one case, unfair taxes being levied, and in another case, fair taxes being withheld. The Colonies went to war over this... people do go to war over taxes and tariffs and to gain and maintain their rights.
Taxes were a very, very small part of the list of grievances which compelled them to withdraw their consent to be governed by the English crown. There's a very good chance that even if those unfair taxes had never been imposed, they still would have rebelled.
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:39 AM   #150
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Let's admit it: the reasons for the Revolutionary War were pretty lame.
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:05 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Let's admit it: the reasons for the Revolutionary War were pretty lame.
And some of them find echos in the modern age:

"For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies"

In case anyone's wondering this grievance refers to the Crown permitting the province of Quebec and the conquered territories of New France to continue to use the Code Civil for non-criminal law matters (succession, land transfer, lawsuits, etc) and to allow (horrors) Catholics to hold public office, rather than be forced to adopt the British Common Law system used in the other colonies.

Think of it as the ancestor of the "Sharia Law" fears.
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Old 14th September 2018, 04:40 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. It's amazing how upset people got when I dared to say that slavery wasn't the SOLE cause of the Civil War. Heresy! You'd think I was somehow defending slavery.
At least a few episodes, if not all episodes, of Ken Burns' series should be required viewing by every high school US History class. Sometimes I think most people get their views of the Civil War from watching Gone With the Wind.
I'm confused. You keep saying that slavery wasn't the sole cause of the civil war, but other than tariffs that were over three decades beforehand you haven't given a single other cause. Since you are a history teacher, surely it must be easy for you to state another one?
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Old 14th September 2018, 06:56 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Let's admit it: the reasons for the Revolutionary War were pretty lame.
Sucks to be ruled by a capricious, democratically unaccountable tyrant.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22a...King+George%22
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:05 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
The following point has been made elsewhere, but the issue isn’t whether or not those that we honor and memorialize are flawless human beings, but rather what the totality of their contributions to our nation represents in terms of historical significance.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave-owners. This is not in dispute. But we honor and memorialize them because they are better known for the achievements they contributed to the founding of our country.

Robert E. Lee is remembered for one thing: Leading a treasonous revolt against the United States.

That’s why people like Washington and Jefferson get memorials, and people like Lee shouldn’t.
Well said. That summarizes my conclusion as well.
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Old 14th September 2018, 07:07 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The Jim Crow era monuments and statues were very overtly, undeniably erected to reinforce and symbolize white supremacy over the freed slaves as slavery's replacement social system. That was their point.

The one in Memphis was a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, first grand wizard of the KKK, the one in New Orleans said this, etc and so on.
Which monument contrains this plaque, and who's the idiot who wrote it?
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:00 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Just saw this, and it seems relevant: https://twitter.com/lachlan/status/1040022715808264193



2 minute video embedded in tweet.
Perfect.

“Name 3 other causes.”
“Uhhh. I’m not a historian...”
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Old 14th September 2018, 09:28 AM   #157
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Just saw this:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
I see, like most lefties you believe -- based on nothing -- that people who fight in wars are fighting for a cause. You believe the Americans who were drafted and fought in Vietnam did so because of their crusade against Communism. Is that correct?
Thanks so much for admitting that the flag cannot represent any troops, as the troops represent only themselves. Let's fess up to that in the thread on saluting "sacred" colored cloth. Meanwhile, that leg up so many, like Trey Crowdy, keep claiming to be their (white*) right in public hearings, solely for donning a uniform (i.e., like most cases, uh, to get a job), is by your own account unwarranted.

*For GOPers, does not apply to brown people, who can even be deported after serving.
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:08 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It depends on the circumstances.
There is a monument at Saratoga to the members of a Highland regiment who died there. It was funded by private means, the only US government involment was granted them a small lot of land to build the memorial.
There is alos a monument to the Lakota who died at Little Big Horn.
I agree that the Confederate monuments and statues should be taken down from courthouses and other places of honor, but am not sure you want to go to Gettysburg and remove all the monuments there.....
Well, I think the Native American issue is a little more delicate and nuanced, considering the whole invasion and genocide thing.

But it's pretty clear cut regarding the Confederacy. Unambiguous treason and sedition. And I don't think anyone who fought for the Confederacy should be honored in any way on U.S. soil.
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:11 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well said. That summarizes my conclusion as well.
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Old 14th September 2018, 10:52 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Just saw this, and it seems relevant: https://twitter.com/lachlan/status/1040022715808264193



2 minute video embedded in tweet.
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Perfect.

“Name 3 other causes.”
“Uhhh. I’m not a historian...”
I like how he claimed he was being “put on the spot”. Shortly after speaking with authority on the subkect. During a pre-planned interview.
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