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Tags Brett Kavanaugh , Congressional hearings , Supreme Court nominees

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Old 1st October 2018, 03:17 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Fixed below.
Deluded
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:28 PM   #82
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Thread is off the rails, not discussing the topic, and contains little other than personal vitriol. I'm going to request it be closed.
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:34 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, but I wasn't talking about anything relating to what you responded, either. Responding to accusations is fine. Defending yourself is fine. Frothing at the mouth while spouting partisan conspiracy theories is not. It's the mark of a person unfit to sit on the Supreme Court.

You'd agree, if only the judge had been nominated by a Democrat; that's the sad state of affairs, here.
You're making assumptions about me that you have nothing to back up with.

Quote:
Ok but loss of details is something common in such recollections.
She has lost all details that could possibly serve to corroborate her story, yet kept a bunch of other ones which cannot. That's oddly convenient. And it also doesn't explain her inconsistencies.

And I think it didn't happen because that far better fits the available evidence, such as it is. Sexual predators don't stop preying. But if Kavanaugh ever was one, he's long since stopped. What are the odds of that? They're vanishingly small, honestly. Much smaller than that this woman, who said nary a peep about this whole thing for decades, is lying or mistaken. That does happen, much more often than predators stopping on their own.
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:40 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sure.

Never mind that she knows who butters her bread. That Kavanaugh would not be prosecuted is not the same as saying that Ford is lying or beyond reproach. No one should be reviewing this coming to the conclusion that there is enough here to seek charges. No, the question is, is there enough to question whether this candidate is suitable for a very important job.
And the clear answer is no, there is not enough here. There's nothing here other than completely unsubstantiated accusations.

And ponder for a moment what that means for future nominations if unsubstantiated allegations are enough to disqualify a candidate. What incentives do you think that puts in place? How do you think people will respond to such an incentive structure?
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:49 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're making assumptions about me that you have nothing to back up with.
To which part of my post are you refering? The last part? That's speculation. Informed speculation.

Quote:
She has lost all details that could possibly serve to corroborate her story, yet kept a bunch of other ones which cannot. That's oddly convenient.
Might be selection bias on your part, though. You interpret what's useful and not, just like the rest of us. But you seem very confident, nonetheless.

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And it also doesn't explain her inconsistencies.
Well if you don't remember some details very well you might end up contradicting yourself. I don't find that surprising. And some people have better memories than others.

Quote:
And I think it didn't happen because that far better fits the available evidence, such as it is. Sexual predators don't stop preying.
Citation?

Quote:
But if Kavanaugh ever was one, he's long since stopped. What are the odds of that?
I don't know. Do you? You seem awfully confident that you've got this one figured out.

Quote:
They're vanishingly small, honestly. Much smaller than that this woman, who said nary a peep about this whole thing for decades, is lying or mistaken.
What is it about women, man, that gets conservatives in a bunch like that? I have gots to know.
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:49 PM   #86
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- I learned that Scalia was approved 98-0 by the U.S. Senate. (I already knew about Kennedy, approved unanimously in a presidential election year.)

- I learned there are 2 opposite, rationally defensible conclusions that can be drawn by comparing the treatment of Garland vs. Kavanaugh.

- I learned that a GOP senator asked Anita Hill, "Are you a scorned woman?"

- I learned that to the best of my understanding the hyper-partisan BS we are now enduring started with the GOP 10 years ago, just after Obama's election. If someone has a different theory I'd be willing to listen.

But I just re-read the title of the thread. I didn't learn these things from the Kavanaugh hearing, per se. I learned them because I got curious and looked stuff up. "He said, she said" has driven me nuts for virtually my whole life and one thing I like about this forum is people look stuff up.
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Old 1st October 2018, 03:50 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the clear answer is no, there is not enough here. There's nothing here other than completely unsubstantiated accusations.
How about the rest of him? Do you think overturning abortion laws is desirable? Do you believe lying under oath is something acceptable from a SCOTUS justice? Do you think his conspiracy theories about Democrats mean he can be objective when sitting in judgment over Americans? Those are the things that disqualify him.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:10 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the clear answer is no, there is not enough here. There's nothing here other than completely unsubstantiated accusations.

And ponder for a moment what that means for future nominations if unsubstantiated allegations are enough to disqualify a candidate. What incentives do you think that puts in place? How do you think people will respond to such an incentive structure?
When it comes to simply this one incident I agree with you.

However, Kavanaugh's testimony eliminates him from consideration because he perjured himself and demonstrated questionable impartiality and a temperament not suited for a justice.

'Boofing' is not farting,' 'Devil's Triangle' is not a drinking game And it is clear that Kavanaugh not only perjured himself during this process, he also did when he was nominated for his present judgeship.

Now, I know that the GOP doesn't care about lying and perjury given that Trump is President, but I personally think people who lie under oath should not be rewarded for it.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Thread is off the rails, not discussing the topic, and contains little other than personal vitriol. I'm going to request it be closed.
The thread or the entire USA Politics section?
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:38 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What is it about women, man, that gets conservatives in a bunch like that? I have gots to know.
That's just pathetic. It's got nothing to do with any attitude towards women. It's HUMANS. Humans lie. They lie when they are incentivised to do so. Women are incentivised to lie about sexual assault. Men are incentivised to lie about other things. There isn't any fundamental difference. The sexism comes from thinking that women are intrinsically honest and men are not.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:40 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
When it comes to simply this one incident I agree with you.

However, Kavanaugh's testimony eliminates him from consideration because he perjured himself and demonstrated questionable impartiality and a temperament not suited for a justice.

'Boofing' is not farting,' 'Devil's Triangle' is not a drinking game And it is clear that Kavanaugh not only perjured himself during this process, he also did when he was nominated for his present judgeship.

Now, I know that the GOP doesn't care about lying and perjury given that Trump is President, but I personally think people who lie under oath should not be rewarded for it.
Great. Now we've got Boofers, the lamest conspiracy theory ever.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:46 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How about the rest of him? Do you think overturning abortion laws is desirable? Do you believe lying under oath is something acceptable from a SCOTUS justice? Do you think his conspiracy theories about Democrats mean he can be objective when sitting in judgment over Americans? Those are the things that disqualify him.
You are confused. Overturning Roe v Wade would not overturn any abortion laws, rather it would permit laws that were previously overturned. Whether or not that is desirable is a subject for a different thread, and has little to do with what has been happening. The claims of perjury are very weak, and the characterisation of his response to mistreatment as a conspiracy theory is Kafkaesque.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can read a pretty good dissection from Rachel Mitchell, the investigative counsel for the judiciary committee, here:
https://www.scribd.com/document/3898...sel#from_embed

There's a number of serious issues with her testimony. Ford's account has been inconsistent, she has no memory of key details, nobody can corroborate even part of her account, she's been evasive, forgetful and uncooperative about recent events surrounding these allegations, and it appears that she's basically been coached by Democratic operatives.
Prosecution summary without the Defense reply.

And, that's not the biggest problem with Kav. It's his lying and partisanship.

I don't see her assessment of Kav's testimony.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:50 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I learned that to the best of my understanding the hyper-partisan BS we are now enduring started with the GOP 10 years ago, just after Obama's election. If someone has a different theory I'd be willing to listen.
I think it was more gradual. Some Republicans still refer to rejecting an SC nomination as "getting Borked", a reference to Robert Bork's failed nomination in 1987.

It has elements of a feud, with each side blaming the other for each previous thing as justification for the next thing. A lot of Democrats cite the nastyness as starting with the Whitewater investigation, which they saw as Republicans trying to get revenge for Watergate and Iran-Contra.

Now some see this as the Dems trying to get revenge for Whitewater.

It just kind of goes on.

That said, both sides do not behave equally. Kavanaugh really did lie under oath about a number of things, the Dems are on solid footing with this right now. The GOP really has used gerrymandering in a way that far outstrips any previous Democratic efforts. GOP state legislatures really are doing what they can to limit Democracy in their states.

Things are very bad right now; both sides bear blame, but one side bears much more blame than the other.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:51 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Thread is off the rails, not discussing the topic, and contains little other than personal vitriol. I'm going to request it be closed.
It was too soon, me thinks.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:05 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Great. Now we've got Boofers, the lamest conspiracy theory ever.
That's not the point. It's called perjury. Lying under oath to the United States Senate is a felony punishable by time in prison. Kavanaugh has a responsibility to tell the truth. Why is that so ******* hard? Isn't that what Kavanaugh would demand from a witness in a courtroom? Why should it be any different before the US Senate?

He failed. Simple as that.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:14 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's not the point. It's called perjury. Lying under oath to the United States Senate is a felony punishable by time in prison. Kavanaugh has a responsibility to tell the truth. Why is that so ******* hard? Isn't that what Kavanaugh would demand from a witness in a courtroom? Why should it be any different before the US Senate?

He failed. Simple as that.
You say that like you know he committed perjury. But you don’t actually know that.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Prosecution summary without the Defense reply.

And, that's not the biggest problem with Kav. It's his lying and partisanship.

I don't see her assessment of Kav's testimony.
What’s to assess? There are no details to examine about his denial. And given the vague and completely unsubstantiated nature of the accusations, how could there be?
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:20 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Kavanaugh really did lie under oath about a number of things, the Dems are on solid footing with this right now.
No, they are not. They are making fools of themselves with Booferism.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:28 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Women are incentivised to lie about sexual assault. Men are incentivised to lie about other things. There isn't any fundamental difference. The sexism comes from thinking that women are intrinsically honest and men are not.
Utter BS.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:30 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Utter BS.
Not exactly a compelling counter-argument.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:31 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You say that like you know he committed perjury. But you don’t actually know that.
I know with a 98 percent certainty he committed perjury. His own calendars show he was not honest.
And I believe anyone evaluating his testimony critically against the facts would come to the same conclusion. His choir boy act went against all the available evidence.

He said he had never attended parties similar to the party described by Dr. Ford yet his own calendars betray that.
He said that Dr. Ford did not travel in the same circles, yet she was dating his friend 'Squi' Chris Garrett the summer of 1982.

Kavanaugh also admitted in a separate Sept. 17 committee interview that he was friends with Holton-Arms girls. “I would imagine that there were Holton-Arms girls [at parties] on occasion, and I was friends with a couple,”

He said boofing was flatulence. It is anal sex or taking drugs anally. He said the Devils Triangle was a drinking game when in fact it is a threesome with two guys. He lied about documents stolen from the Democrats. He lied about how much he drank. He lied about 'Beach Week Ralph Club' where Kavanaugh said it his weak stomach. Does anyone actually believe this was not about alcohol?

He said he busted his tail and didn't have connections at Yale. But his grandfather graduated from Yale. Yale reports that 25 percent of its admissions go to legacy students.

Kavanaugh’s friend Judge wrote a book titled “Wasted: Tales of a GenX Drunk,” in which a character named Bart O’Kavanaugh (sound familiar?) vomits on someone’s car during Beach Week and passes out.

Kavanaugh denied that he was the inspiration for O’Kavanaugh. “He wrote a book that is a fictionalized book,” he said in his hearing.

But a note at the beginning of Judge’s book states, “This book is based on actual experiences.”

There were other lies. See.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b027da00d61fcd
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:34 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not exactly a compelling counter-argument.
I'd say we're about even.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:36 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know with a 98 percent certainty he committed perjury.
What statement do you think was perjury?
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:36 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Women are incentivised to lie about sexual assault.
What exactly is Ford getting out of this? What is her incentive?
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:38 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I'd say we're about even.
There is no “we” here. You and I are not having an argument. You just tried to heckle an argument other people were having.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What exactly is Ford getting out of this? What is her incentive?
Taking down Kavanaugh. Possibly making money like Anita Hill did. Becoming a liberal hero. Could be a number of things.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:40 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What statement do you think was perjury?
Don't do that. Don't pretend like 2 or 3 threads, some going back over a week now haven't happened and are still ongoing.

You can disagree with people's opinion that Kavanaugh has committed perjury (dammit brain stop changing that to "permitting perjury" when you type) but don't just do the whole "I'm going to ask to repeat the entire ongoing discussion" stalling tactic.

The discussion is already ongoing. Don't act like we just started it and people still need to present their case.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:42 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Taking down Kavanaugh. Possibly making money like Anita Hill did. Becoming a liberal hero. Could be a number of things.
Okay the "Evil man-hating woman" character doesn't really fit this story.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:44 PM   #110
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Don't do that. Don't pretend like 2 or 3 threads, some going back over a week now haven't happened and are still ongoing.

You can disagree with people's opinion that Kavanaugh has committed perjury (dammit brain stop changing that to "permitting perjury" when you type) but don't just do the whole "I'm going to ask to repeat the entire ongoing discussion" stalling tactic.

The discussion is already ongoing. Don't act like we just started it and people still need to present their case.
You typed all of that to avoid typing a single statement that you think constituted perjury?
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:45 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
You typed all of that to avoid typing a single statement that you think constituted perjury?
And you typed that instead of... nothing. Your point?
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:46 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know with a 98 percent certainty he committed perjury. And I believe anyone evaluating his testimony critically against the facts would come to the same conclusion. His choir boy act went against all the available evidence.
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
I'd say we're about even.
You are arguing with a poster who spent an extensive period of time claiming he had proof Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist and refusing to provide a shred of evidence. It's futile.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:48 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I think it was more gradual. Some Republicans still refer to rejecting an SC nomination as "getting Borked", a reference to Robert Bork's failed nomination in 1987.
It was more gradual, but Democrats did not politicize the appointments of Kennedy and Scalia at all. Even on Bork, there were crossover votes on both sides.

Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Things are very bad right now; both sides bear blame, but one side bears much more blame than the other.
And both sides probably agree with you
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:48 PM   #114
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I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the lesson everybody learned from this is that the other side is completely mendacious, while their side is too noble to get down in the gutter and slog it out with the liars.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:51 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It was more gradual, but Democrats did not politicize the appointments of Kennedy and Scalia at all. Even on Bork, there were crossover votes on both sides.
It is odd (and in my opinion disheartening) that prior to... the last couple of years the SCOTUS remained the most... well "neutral" isn't the term I'm looking for but "most willing to break from the pack" is close-ish. Both "sides" appointed Judges only to have them go against their grain at least once or twice on big issues.

And it was probably the last place in American politics where "Conservative = Republican" and "Liberal = Democrat" wasn't pretty much always the case.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:51 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the lesson everybody learned from this is that the other side is completely mendacious, while their side is too noble to get down in the gutter and slog it out with the liars.
I didn't learn that lesson, and I don't even agree with it.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:54 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have that exactly backwards. It is exclusively the Democrats, not Republicans, who launch these vicious personal attacks against judicial nominees. The Democrats whined endlessly (and to this day) about Republicans blocking Garland, but the Republicans never said one bad thing about Garland himself. The toxicity comes from an abandonment of constitutional principles, not from adherence to them.

The Republicans made certain that they didn't have to say anything about Garland at all, so your claim is a truism. If they had been willing to even consider his nomination it would be different. But they weren't, and they didn't.

If you are trying to suggest there is some basis for comparison you are either being disingenuous or you are very confused.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:59 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There is no “we” here. You and I are not having an argument. You just tried to heckle an argument other people were having.
That's adorable.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:59 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but... cards all on the table here... for all practical purposes all of our political discourse being nothing but a long game of "You said that then, now you say this now" kind of got stale for me a long time ago.

People are gonna protect their tribes. This should not be shocking to anyone at this point.

And 99 times out of a 100 "OMG this side protected Bill but attacked Ted and the other side attacked Ted but protected Bill when they both did the same thing!" just means both Bill and Ted... are just awful.

We need to get out of this loop, bad. We are stuck in. Meaningful, influential people both in the leadership and in the trenches of both "sides" are going to have to sucking it up and doing what's best for the country even if it means not returning a childish jab the other side landed.

There is no basis for comparison. The GOP has demonstrably and categorically abandoned just about every value they have ever laid claim to. (They might have missed a couple, but I can't think of what they might be.)

They haven't even bothered to pretend otherwise. They now seem to think it is some sort of virtue.

As false equivalencies go, your assertion is a whopper.
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Old 1st October 2018, 05:59 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's just pathetic. It's got nothing to do with any attitude towards women.
And yet somehow it's the woman who gets disbelieved. So yeah, the question is raised. Maybe it's not the case for you, but damn if it comes back often.

Quote:
Women are incentivised to lie about sexual assault.
Citation needed -- but not forthcoming.

Quote:
The sexism comes from thinking that women are intrinsically honest and men are not.
Who in the world thinks this? Oh, that's right; no one. That right there is part of what raised my question.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You are confused. Overturning Roe v Wade would not overturn any abortion laws, rather it would permit laws that were previously overturned.
That's a distinction without a difference, and just more evasion by you.

Quote:
The claims of perjury are very weak
A lie's a lie.

Quote:
and the characterisation of his response to mistreatment as a conspiracy theory is Kafkaesque.
Zig do you think you could for one solitary second let go of your reflexive defense of everything conservative/Republican and tell me if, had Garland blathered about "payback for the Bushes" as the reason for his troubles with the Senate, you wouldn't think him more than a bit cooky?

He said right there that it was payback for the Clintons. What in the blue **** does that even mean? That was an unhinged statement by him.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What statement do you think was perjury?
You know, for someone who's dead-convinced that Ford lied or is mistaken, you sure seemed to have missed the lies that Kavanaugh uttered. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he's a Republican, right?
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