Who created al Qaeda?

geggy

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geggy
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Operation Cyclone

Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm and finance the mujahideen, in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of its client, the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Marxist-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention. Operation Cyclone was one of the longest and most expensive covert CIA operations ever undertaken; funding began with just over $500,000 in 1979, was increased dramatically to $20–$30 million per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million per year in 1987.

Hillary Clinton: We created al Qaeda

And there's this guy
 
OK, which one of you created al Qaeda?...

I've got all day, you know. Nobody leaves this room until the culprit owns up.

It was actually a group of Muslims obsessed with the writings of a bloke whose name I forget but comprises too many consonants. He came up with the idea that most Muslims weren't True Muslims (TM)TM and there needed to be a concerted effort to sort the wheat from the chaff. AQ's initial objectives were similar to ISIS in that they wanted to established the caliphate.
 
I've got $2 on Hillary and $2 on Obama.

Come on baby, daddy needs a new pair of shoes!
 
Actually the USA definitely did aid groups such as al Qaeda to help encourage opposition to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Including providing arms. This is well documented and is not seriously in dispute. But this strategy is used by virtually all countries seeking to play on the world stage: provide support, usually quietly, to the enemies of your enemies. I would not call it "created" but rather just the usual attempt to exploit pre-existing religious and political organizations and prejudices to supplement overall American foreign policy goals.

I do think it can be argued that in this case the USA made a mistake in doing so.
 
Giordano said:
Actually the USA definitely did aid groups such as al Qaeda to help encourage opposition to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Including providing arms. This is well documented and is not seriously in dispute. But this strategy is used by virtually all countries seeking to play on the world stage: provide support, usually quietly, to the enemies of your enemies. I would not call it "created" but rather just the usual attempt to exploit pre-existing religious and political organizations and prejudices to supplement overall American foreign policy goals.

I do think it can be argued that in this case the USA made a mistake in doing so.
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Yep, find wannabe terrorists, kill wannabee terrorists.
 
And the US and the UK supported some fairly unsavory people who were fighting Hitler in World War 2....

The Afghan Rebels were a mixed bunch. The Northen Alliance who were to become bitter enemies of the Taliaban/AL Qaida in Afghantistan also fought the Russians.
 
Giordano said:
Actually the USA definitely did aid groups such as al Qaeda to help encourage opposition to the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.
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No.

The CIA did reach out to Al Qaeda and bin Laden during the Soviet occupation, but they were clear in their not wanting anything to do with the United States, and what they feel is a Zionist-controlled CIA.

This was covered in Steve Coll's book, "Ghost Wars". And after 9-11 the CIA did an internal audit just to make sure someone hadn't made a back door deal at some point (they found nothing).

We gave aid the the Mujaheddin, who represented a cross section of Afghan tribals. Some of those tribes would become the Taliban. The Taliban does not get along with Al Qaeda once the protection money stops.

The US is quietly negotiating with the Taliban to extricate ourselves from their wonderful country.

https://in.reuters.com/article/afgh...deal-with-taliban-in-2019-media-idINKCN1NN0BZ
 
Axxman300 said:
No.

The CIA did reach out to Al Qaeda and bin Laden during the Soviet occupation, but they were clear in their not wanting anything to do with the United States, and what they feel is a Zionist-controlled CIA.

This was covered in Steve Coll's book, "Ghost Wars". And after 9-11 the CIA did an internal audit just to make sure someone hadn't made a back door deal at some point (they found nothing).

We gave aid the the Mujaheddin, who represented a cross section of Afghan tribals. Some of those tribes would become the Taliban. The Taliban does not get along with Al Qaeda once the protection money stops.

The US is quietly negotiating with the Taliban to extricate ourselves from their wonderful country.

https://in.reuters.com/article/afgh...deal-with-taliban-in-2019-media-idINKCN1NN0BZ
Click to expand...

Morevoer, in order to maintain some kind of plausible deniability, the US did not funnel this money directly. They gave it to Pakistan to distribute. The ISS financed all the most Islamist groups they could find, because they thought that these groups would be more inclined to favour Pakistan and extend their influence over Afghanistan.
Al Qaeda never took this money, both because of their already-existing hatred of America, but also because they didn't need to. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were pouring money into Peshawar to finance their own favourite fighters.
Geggy: perhaps if you had looked beyond the CT websites and read some actual history, you would have known this. Quote-mined speeches on YouTube do not make up for an ignorance of the facts. These sites are presenting a false and - on occasion- dishonest version of events. Don't trust them.
 
My hunch is that Intel does you "third parties" to achieve policy goals. US considered USSR and then Russia enemies and were in a global struggle to secure "client states" for economic and "strategic" reasons. This allowed both states to avoid direct military conflict which could easily escalate. So both would funnel weapons and "support" to the groups which opposed their "enemy".

It can't be ignored that the local residents in the ME had suffered from years of mostly western intervention in their region. Brits imposed monarchies when they created SA and Jordan. Islam had no model for monarchies. Long and short is that the West exploited the region and the imposed governments were very oppressive to the people who understood where the muscle was coming from... the West. Russia supported the left wing government in Afghanistan. In 1987 - leftist President Mohammad Najibullah was installed as leader. USSR at the time supported him. Bingo... USA believed they had to displace him. Proxy war began and USA supported the northern alliance of "insurgents" who sought the overthrow of Najibullah. And many "Arabs" from across the region apparently went to Afghanistan to fight the infidels... first the USSR backed Najibullah (then USA backed) gov that overthrow him. Enemy of my enemy got support and this was likely the beginning of AQ. I suspect the Arabist fighters were not thrilled with the USA meddling either. They were probably OK taking military support but wanted nothing more. USA wanted an Afghan client state.. Karzai became that leader after 2001 when the Taliban was run out.

It seems plausible that the USA got some blow back on 9/11 from AQ who wanted the West out of the region and to stop the USA from supporting Israel's "oppression" of Palestinians. It's also likely that the USA knew of the animus AQ had to the USA but the USA had no strategy to destroy AQ.... who was mounting attacks such as the two embassy bombings in norther Africa... and the Khobar towers bombing in 1996. Terrorism was becoming a real problem for the USA... and 9/11 was the straw that broke the camel's back and got them to take military action. Military action against terrorists and terrorism made no sense. Our military was not designed to fight terrorism... So we falsely claimed Sadam was behind 911 and he had WMDs... excuse to attack him. He was anti US. anti Israel and supported by the Russians. And then we decided to attack Afghanistan who had not attacked the USA.

Big mess... all spin off from East West meddling in the Mid East. Russia has also experienced terrorism in 1999 Chechnya bombings.
 
Accepting that Al Quaeda's early financing was primarily from Arab countries / individuals; how much was this encouraged / promoted by the US? We know that the US is prepared to use occult funding mechanisms (see Oliver North).
 
Dave Rogers said:
Did you mean "covert," or is this some conspiracy theory that Charlie Stross's Laundry novels are actually non-fiction?

Dave
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Occult in sensu stricto (I had to do Latin in school), means hidden so yes in this situation synonymous with covert or clandestine. When astronomers talk about occulting of stars they do not believe one of the ancient ones has swallowed the star, when doctors talk about an occult cancer they do not mean it is a result of a curse. Witches had to be occult as the alternative was burning. That magic was occult does not mean all occult things are magic.

Still we do know that a certain redhead with a bone white violin really dealt with Al Qaeda.
ETA
Why do you think the US was so desperate to seal the cave complex on the Afghan / Pakistan border?
 
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Planigale said:
Accepting that Al Quaeda's early financing was primarily from Arab countries / individuals; how much was this encouraged / promoted by the US? ...
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I don't know.
I just want to interject that early 1980s Al Qaeda was pretty tiny and insignificant in the larger picture of the Afghan wars. They were considered by the local factions as foreigners and not much loved by anyone. I don't for minute believe that the US services would have failed to notice this insignificance, and they would have acted / not acted accordingly - i.e. not to prop up AQ much, lest any allied Afghans turn sour.

AQ gained significant attention only when they started bombing western targets outside of Afghanistan.
And attention is what people seek more than most things.
 
Oystein said:
I don't know.
I just want to interject that early 1980s Al Qaeda was pretty tiny and insignificant in the larger picture of the Afghan wars. They were considered by the local factions as foreigners and not much loved by anyone. I don't for minute believe that the US services would have failed to notice this insignificance, and they would have acted / not acted accordingly - i.e. not to prop up AQ much, lest any allied Afghans turn sour.

AQ gained significant attention only when they started bombing western targets outside of Afghanistan.
And attention is what people seek more than most things.
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That's the thing, bin Laden was more of a salesman than anything. There is video of him holding a radio, giving commands in some battle against the Russians, but to date nobody can confirm he ever fired a shot himself. He built his credibility in the Jihad club off of his Afghan War legend.

The Afghans didn't like or trust the Arab jihadists, but were happy to use them as canon fodder.

The movie (and book) Charlie Wilson's War is a great primer on US involvement in that war.
 
It's been ages since I read the standard works on AQ and their early days, but I seem to recall that the local fighters loathed the Arab volunteers, as the latter seemed more interested in dying for the cause and becoming a martyr, as opposed to actually doing something productive.

Something about running around in white garb and making themselves very visible whenever a Soviet gunship appeared springs to mind.
 
Planigale said:
Occult in sensu stricto (I had to do Latin in school), means hidden so yes in this situation synonymous with covert or clandestine. When astronomers talk about occulting of stars they do not believe one of the ancient ones has swallowed the star, when doctors talk about an occult cancer they do not mean it is a result of a curse. Witches had to be occult as the alternative was burning. That magic was occult does not mean all occult things are magic.
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Just as an aside, but the actual usage of occult to describe things supernatural was because it was hidden or secret (occult) knowledge. Occult meaning hidden is the original meaning.
 
Osama bin Laden and a handful of the "Afghan Arabs" around him. That's who.

More complete explanation: While donors from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Arab states - private and state ones, or at least, state-sponsored - certainly were generous in supporting Osama bin Laden and his "Afghan Arabs", it is important to remember had his own (personal and family) money as well. Remember, this was before he was disowned by his brothers and sisters - at least, officially - and so he had access to much more family money throughout the 1980s.

He also had a close relationship with Saudi intelligence at this time, and with important Saudi royals - perhaps especially the head of Saudi intelligence himself, Prince Turki bin Faisal. Whether those relationships continued right up to 9/11 to any extent, albeit covertly - even after he was overtly disowned by the Kingdom, exiled to Sudan and then Afghanistan, and stripped of his citizenship - is a matter of controversy to this day.

Additionally, Osama almost certainly had many contacts with Pakistani intelligence; at the very least, it is beyond dispute that he made several important friends among the most Islamist and extreme of the Afghan mujahideen commanders, many of whom were being funded directly by Pakistan (and Saudi Arabia, I suspect). Some of these people later had falling outs with bin Laden from what I understand, but others remained allies, and welcomed him into Afghanistan after he was run out of Sudan in 1996. Of course, the Taliban consolidated power in most of Afghanistan around this same time - and while most of the people who became the Taliban were in Pakistani refugee camps during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, they were later heavily nurtured and sponsored by Pakistan as the force to create some sort of stability and government in Afghanistan during the incredibly bloody Afghan Civil War that raged in the 90s.

As for the US and CIA: They (we, as an American here) were certainly heavily involved in the covert operations and financing of the Afghan mujahideen, and the Saudis were certainly matching CIA funds to the effort (and may well have provided even more), but all of this was being coordinated by the Pakistanis - specifically, the notorious ISI intelligence service. And the Saudis, as I previously mentioned, supported Osama bin Laden and his crew as part of their broader effort, and the Saudis, the Pakistanis,the mujahideen, the US, and indeed, Osama bin Laden were all playing on the same team in terms of fighting against the USSR in Afghanistan; yet the details of the financing effort and operations were heavily compartmentalized by KSA and Pakistan, so even if CIA money ever made it to bin Laden, they'd have very little (if any) chance of knowing it. And even if the US did know it, would anyone in the US government even know or care much about this oddball young Saudi trustfunder-turned war fundraiser who dabbled in some actual fighting but was frankly, something of a bit player at the time?

They (the US government, including the CIA) really didn't know who he was at the time, let alone, what he was doing and what the significance of it would become.
 
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Almost all the US dollars went to the Afghan Mujahadeen not the foreign fighters (though there will always be question marks over siphoning due to funds being funnelled through the ISI). Osama and similar had their own backers.
 
Oystein said:
The absence of the opening poster is deafening.
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I'm sure he's just awestruck by the amount of knowledgeable, reasonable and factually-based replies he's had. Once he's digested it all, he'll be back with gratitude to us for explaining it all so clearly to him, an apology for posting nonsense and a promise to be more careful to fact-check next time.

Right, Geggy?
 
Ah yes, the US created Al Qaeda as their puppet, and that's why they were unable to use them for 9/11 and were forced to resort to nanothermite, rockets and holograms, yet still willing to blame them, thus rendering them useless as a puppet in the middle east. It all makes perfect sense.
 
Alright, alright, you guys win. It was me.






Back in the day, I created a fictional terrorist organization for my unfinished thriller novel trilogy, but then that jerk bin Laden stole my idea and made it into a real-world terrorist organization. At the very least, he owes me money. Where can I find him?

Thanks.
 
Allen773 said:
Alright, alright, you guys win. It was me.






Back in the day, I created a fictional terrorist organization for my unfinished thriller novel trilogy, but then that jerk bin Laden stole my idea and made it into a real-world terrorist organization. At the very least, he owes me money. Where can I find him?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You think you are jesting, that you just invented the idea that AQ stole your idea, but there is this guy, Robert Alexander, now, who not only claims that he gave AQ the idea of using large planes to attack targets kamikaze-style, but that they later showed up at his laundry to offer him US$ 100,000 for the idea! And "they" is a prominent group including Prince Bandar himself, along with Nawaf al Hazmi, one of the hijackers of AA77, and a few heavies. I am not making this up! Here is his sworn affidavit:

https://www.uglytruth.info/app/down...at+Affidavit+of+Robert+Alexander+08061818.pdf

Bit of discussion of it at 911Blogger:
http://911blogger.com/news/2018-11-26/doj-responds-grand-jury-petition#new

Crazy Barbara Honegger is pushing this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBRpfCx-4Aw
 
Oystein said:
You think you are jesting, that you just invented the idea that AQ stole your idea, but there is this guy, Robert Alexander, now, who not only claims that he gave AQ the idea of using large planes to attack targets kamikaze-style, but that they later showed up at his laundry to offer him US$ 100,000 for the idea! And "they" is a prominent group including Prince Bandar himself, along with Nawaf al Hazmi, one of the hijackers of AA77, and a few heavies. I am not making this up! Here is his sworn affidavit:

https://www.uglytruth.info/app/down...at+Affidavit+of+Robert+Alexander+08061818.pdf

Bit of discussion of it at 911Blogger:
http://911blogger.com/news/2018-11-26/doj-responds-grand-jury-petition#new

Crazy Barbara Honegger is pushing this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBRpfCx-4Aw
Click to expand...

Strange that he should be boasting about this. Surely there's enough evidence there for an arrest on terrorism charges? He's admitting inciting, abetting, and receiving payment for a terrorist offence.
 
Oystein said:
You think you are jesting, that you just invented the idea that AQ stole your idea, but there is this guy, Robert Alexander, now, who not only claims that he gave AQ the idea of using large planes to attack targets kamikaze-style, but that they later showed up at his laundry to offer him US$ 100,000 for the idea! And "they" is a prominent group including Prince Bandar himself, along with Nawaf al Hazmi, one of the hijackers of AA77, and a few heavies. I am not making this up! Here is his sworn affidavit:

https://www.uglytruth.info/app/down...at+Affidavit+of+Robert+Alexander+08061818.pdf

Bit of discussion of it at 911Blogger:
http://911blogger.com/news/2018-11-26/doj-responds-grand-jury-petition#new

Crazy Barbara Honegger is pushing this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBRpfCx-4Aw
Click to expand...

Wasn't one of the Saudis who may have had ties to the Saudi state (whatever "ties" and "state" mean...) and was part of the infamous "San Diego support network" for Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar not only known to those who knew him or knew of him (including the FBI) as openly supportive of Osama bin Laden, but called September 11, 2001 "a glorious and happy day" and was reported to have bragged that he "did the most out of anyone in helping them (the two hijackers in San Diego)? I'm not sure I have all of the details correct, but I thought I remember reading several stories about this particular Saudi man.

I think was also the guy whose wife allegedly received checks signed by Prince Bandar's wife, and then signed them over to the wife of another one of the alleged members of the "Saudi support network" in San Diego, and that some of this money ended up supporting al-Hazmi and al-Midhar. At least, that's what I remember reading.

I can't remember the names of most of the alleged Saudi cut-outs or whatever off the top of my head - might have to go back and reread those 28 pages...;)
 
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geggy said:
Operation Cyclone

Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm and finance the mujahideen, in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989, prior to and during the military intervention by the USSR in support of its client, the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups that were favored by the regime of Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq in neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Marxist-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention. Operation Cyclone was one of the longest and most expensive covert CIA operations ever undertaken; funding began with just over $500,000 in 1979, was increased dramatically to $20–$30 million per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million per year in 1987.

Hillary Clinton: We created al Qaeda

And there's this guy
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You sound like that nutty DJ I know. Except that he thinks that the CIA, Saudi-Arabia (He calls them "Muslim-Jews" :boggled:), MI6, The Mossad and *insert Goverment of country were a terrorist attack has just happened* created ISIS...
 
Oystein said:
but there is this guy, Robert Alexander, now, who not only claims that he gave AQ the idea of using large planes to attack targets kamikaze-style, but that they later showed up at his laundry to offer him US$ 100,000 for the idea!
Click to expand...

Lock him up with a No-Planer...
 
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