ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags ISIS issues

Reply
Old 10th February 2020, 11:09 AM   #441
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
SHe joined a group that abandoned all principles of Civilization, so there are consequences. No sympathy.
She was an idiotic idealistic 15-year-old schoolgirl.

Did you never have any idiotic beliefs when you were younger?

And looking back, do you believe that people never change their beliefs as they grow and mature?
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:12 AM   #442
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She was an idiotic idealistic 15-year-old schoolgirl.

Did you never have any idiotic beliefs when you were younger?

And looking back, do you believe that people never change their beliefs as they grow and mature?
boo hoo.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:21 AM   #443
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,800
1. 15 years is old enough for the glorious perfect utopia of Sweden to consider it a human rights violation if you can't get laid so spare me the "Youthful Transgression" argument.

2. No, must of us don't have "idiotic idealistic moments" in our youth where we leave our entire country and join a terrorist organization.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:27 AM   #444
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Nope. You don't have to be born in the USA to have US citizenship.
We are not talking about applying for Naturalization here. We are discussing birthright.

Quote:
You are a U.S. citizen if:

You have a birth certificate issued by a U.S. state or territory. If you were born in a U.S. territory, but do not have a birth certificate issued by that territory, you may be able to verify your citizenship status using other documents.
You were born outside of the U.S. to at least one U.S. citizen parent and your parent(s) recorded your birth with the U.S. Embassy or consulate in that country:
If the birth was recorded before your 18th birthday, the Embassy or consulate issued your parent(s) a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA or Form FS-240); this document is proof of your U.S. citizenship. Learn how to request copies, amendments, or corrections to a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA or Form FS-240) from the U.S. Department of State (DOS).
If the Embassy or consulate did not issue a Consular Report of Birth Abroad and you are 18 years of age or older, learn how to get a Certificate of Citizenship from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) instead. This document is proof of your U.S. citizenship.
https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen#item-36302
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:32 AM   #445
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We are not talking about applying for Naturalization here. We are discussing birthright.



https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen#item-36302
come home go to prison for Treason
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:35 AM   #446
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
come home go to prison for Treason
That is what Begum has offered to do.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:37 AM   #447
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is what Begum has offered to do.
it's still a matter of Karma, no youthful consideration deserved.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:51 AM   #448
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
it's still a matter of Karma, no youthful consideration deserved.
UK doesn't use Karma. It is in the constitution that every man and woman shall have the right of habeas corpus.

Javid stripping her of her nationality to deny her that right is contemptible.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 12:09 PM   #449
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
From the Guardian 7 Feb 2020:

Quote:
More broadly, the government is refusing to repatriate any of the 60 or so men and women from the UK being held in prisons and camps in Kurdish-controlled north-east Syria – and depriving them of citizenship where possible. In one case, the Home Office is willing to allow four children, all under 10, to return to the UK, but only if their parents, both whom who have had their citizenship stripped, give them up.

It fell to Begum’s lawyers to make an alternative argument. Daniel Furner, of Birnberg Peirce, said some other countries “dealing with similar cases, in particular of very young women, have found safe, sensible and humane ways of returning and reintegrating their citizens quietly, and with expert advice, into a normal existence”.

Legal proceedings, Furner concluded, “fail to provide swift and practical answers to such acute human predicaments as this”.
I find it disquieting that countries like Norway and Finland, and now, I see, the UK are demanding parents detained in the Kurdish refuge camps give up their children in that the kids can return to their mother's country (many will have been born in Syria, so suddenly citizenship is recognised after all).

To expect young children to be separated from their mothers is just as inhumane as Trump segregating Mexican and South American so-called illegal migrants from their offspring at the border, which caused a huge wave of international outcry. Yet there has hardly been a peak about this issue.

Should revoking citizenship really be used as a form of punishment by some politician who might not even be there next year?
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 12:26 PM   #450
TomB
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 654
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We are not talking about applying for Naturalization here. We are discussing birthright.



https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen#item-36302
...and the section of law you linked supports the fact that you do not have to be born in the U.S. (or naturalized) to be a U.S. citizen.

You realize that you provided evidence supporting the opposite of your position, right?
TomB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 02:27 PM   #451
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
...and the section of law you linked supports the fact that you do not have to be born in the U.S. (or naturalized) to be a U.S. citizen.

You realize that you provided evidence supporting the opposite of your position, right?
Look:watch my lips.

USA citizenship law and French citizenship law is based on jus solis

Unlike other countries where it is jus sanguine. Or a mixture of both.

It is the legal concept. OK? So if you are born abroad of a US parent and they register your birth at a US Embassy in that country (= legally equivalent to US jurisdiction/US territory) then there is ZERO contradiction.

Quote:
Pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), U.S. citizenship is automatically granted to any person born within and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States (known as jus soli).
wiki

Last edited by Vixen; 10th February 2020 at 02:31 PM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 03:39 PM   #452
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,080
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are wrong, as Begum was British and had British citizenship. She has never had dual nationality.
According to this wiki article

Quote:
The Secretary of State may not deprive a person of British nationality, unless obtained by means of fraud, false representation or concealment of a material fact, if they are satisfied that the order would make a person stateless. This provision was modified by the Immigration Act 2014 so as not to require that a third country would actually grant nationality to a person; British nationality can be revoked if "the Secretary of State has reasonable grounds for believing that the person is able, under the law of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom, to become a national of such a country or territory."
So it doesn't matter if she doesn't have dual citizenship. The Home Secretary only has to be satisfied that she could claim citizenship elsewhere.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 06:06 PM   #453
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,982
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I find it disquieting that countries like Norway and Finland, and now, I see, the UK are demanding parents detained in the Kurdish refuge camps give up their children in that the kids can return to their mother's country (many will have been born in Syria, so suddenly citizenship is recognised after all).
It's a gesture of pure humanitarianism: their terrorist parents have proven themselves to be completely unacceptable guardians and should not be allowed to have custody of their children.

I don't care whether she lacked the maturity to take full responsibility for basically defecting to IS at the age of 15, she was old enough to take full responsibility when she was brought to public attention. Instead of presenting herself as a victim of IS she came off sounding as a accessory to their crimes. Despite being presented with the worst of their actions she apologised for them.

In that regard the age at which she left the UK is irrelevant, since she continued to sympathise and defend IS until it became very problematic for her.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2020, 11:59 PM   #454
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
According to this wiki article



So it doesn't matter if she doesn't have dual citizenship. The Home Secretary only has to be satisfied that she could claim citizenship elsewhere.
The Home Office has wilfully erred as Begum is over 18 and therefore is NOT entitled to Bangladeshi nationality. To get citizenship by naturalisation means living in a country for anything five years upwards and applying for it.

This does not apply to Begum. Nor is it reasonable to argue thus.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 12:05 AM   #455
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's a gesture of pure humanitarianism: their Asian-looking terrorist parents have proven themselves to be completely unacceptable guardians have cute blond-looking kids and should not be allowed to have custody of their children.

I don't care whether she lacked the maturity to take full responsibility for basically defecting to IS at the age of 15, she was old enough to take full responsibility when she was brought to public attention. Instead of presenting herself as a victim of IS she came off sounding as a accessory to their crimes. Despite being presented with the worst of their actions she apologised for them.

In that regard the age at which she left the UK is irrelevant, since she continued to sympathise and defend IS until it became very problematic for her.
FIFY. So by that logic we should string up murderers and rapists by their ankles, castrate them and make them suffer a long painful death.

No. Dumping your criminals onto other countries to deal with is a gross abrogation of duty and constitutional rights.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 12:06 AM   #456
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We are not talking about applying for Naturalization here. We are discussing birthright.



https://www.usa.gov/become-us-citizen#item-36302
Yes, and as the information you kindly supplied indicates, you don't have to be born in the USA to have a right to citizenship.

Nice of you to supply supporting evidence for the opposite of what you said was the case!

Again.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 12:09 AM   #457
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, and as the information you kindly supplied indicates, you don't have to be born in the USA to have a right to citizenship.

Nice of you to supply supporting evidence for the opposite of what you said was the case!

Again.
I should have used the legal phrase 'jus solis' <snip>



Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 12.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 11th February 2020 at 09:10 PM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 12:14 AM   #458
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,262
Or, put another way, you said something incorrect - "not all countries use bloodline descent (for example, USA and France, where you have to be born there)" - were told it was wrong, so you went to look it up, found out you were wrong, and did your usual thing of insisting you were secretly right the whole time, and everyone else is just too stupid to realise it.

It's never worked before, so why would you assume it would work this time?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 12:31 AM   #459
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Or, put another way, you said something incorrect - "not all countries use bloodline descent (for example, USA and France, where you have to be born there)" - were told it was wrong, so you went to look it up, found out you were wrong, and did your usual thing of insisting you were secretly right the whole time, and everyone else is just too stupid to realise it.

It's never worked before, so why would you assume it would work this time?
I know exactly what I am talking about. Sorry to disappoint you.

Just because the above is what you do, don't judge others by your own standards.

Oh, and I'll thank you not to accuse me of wrongdoing.

Last edited by Vixen; 11th February 2020 at 01:50 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:09 AM   #460
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,971
Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
According to this wiki article



So it doesn't matter if she doesn't have dual citizenship. The Home Secretary only has to be satisfied that she could claim citizenship elsewhere.
Which is a ******** excuse that includes me in its list of people who could be stripped of citizenship, which is frankly absurd. I've got as much chance of being accepted for Finnish citzenship as anyone else in the country, just as Begum has as much chance of getting Bangladeshi citizenship as I do.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:28 AM   #461
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I know exactly what I am talking about. Sorry to disappoint you.

Just because the above is what you do, don't judge others by your own standards.

Oh, and I'll thank you not to accuse me of wrongdoing.
Doubling down was pretty predictable too. Say something incorrect and insist you were right the whole time. Keep it up! I'm sure somebody is convinced.

(Actually I'm not sure at all.)
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 03:09 AM   #462
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Doubling down was pretty predictable too. Say something incorrect and insist you were right the whole time. Keep it up! I'm sure somebody is convinced.

(Actually I'm not sure at all.)
We were discussing Begum who is/was British with a mother who is/was Bangladeshi.

As an aside I mentioned USA/French citizenship and used the shorthand 'born in the USA' as the principle behind USA law, similar to France.

There was zero relevance for me to recite the entire USA or French nationality act and their exceptions under various subsections and byelaws.

Your pouncing on something trivial to accuse me of wrongdoing is just pure nastiness reflects on you.

The gist of what I said remains true and unchanged by your erroneous claim that it is false or that I am a ne'er-do-well who tried to deceive by failing to cite the entire breadth of the USA. French, UK, Bangladeshi nationality acts.

Fact is, Begum even if her mother was Bangladeshi, like the USA citizenship requirements of overseas born persons of a national, the person needs to claim citizenship of said country by age 18 if the parent has not done so.

There is nothing underhand whatsoever by this assertion.

I note that you make a point of trawling through my posts trying to spot typos or things that you can attack me for out of all proportion. Lucky you that I don't reciprocate in kind. But then your aim was simply to wind me up.

Last edited by Vixen; 11th February 2020 at 03:10 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 03:25 AM   #463
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As an aside I mentioned USA/French citizenship and used the shorthand 'born in the USA' as the principle behind USA law, similar to France.
No, you didn't.

Your exact words were:

"Usually, to get dual nationality via descent - and not all countries use bloodline descent (for example, USA and France, where you have to be born there) - you have to apply by age 18.."

You said, or at least strongly implied, that USA does not use bloodline descent, you have to be born there. This is, as you went to helpfully point out, wrong, although you did it while still insisting you were right.

You did not use the shorthand "born in the USA", which in any event is not the principle behind USA law.

Care to try again?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 04:06 AM   #464
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, you didn't.

Your exact words were:

"Usually, to get dual nationality via descent - and not all countries use bloodline descent (for example, USA and France, where you have to be born there) - you have to apply by age 18.."

You said, or at least strongly implied, that USA does not use bloodline descent, you have to be born there. This is, as you went to helpfully point out, wrong, although you did it while still insisting you were right.

You did not use the shorthand "born in the USA", which in any event is not the principle behind USA law.

Care to try again?
Rubbish. I was talking specifically to do with the circumstances around Begum. So it was not necessary to spell out the exceptions to US nationality law.

Born in the USA is indeed the principle that drives USA nationality laws.

Go on, bore us all about, suppose a baby is born midflight, etc, etc.

You either do not understand legal priniciples or you do but just want to be obstreperous.

Had you merely been adding to the comment or pointing out an exception, you wouldn't have needed to descend into abuse and insults on a personal level.

Lucky you getting away with it.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 04:30 AM   #465
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rubbish. I was talking specifically to do with the circumstances around Begum. So it was not necessary to spell out the exceptions to US nationality law.
It was not necessary for you to mention US law at all! But for some reason you chose to do so - and I pointed out your error. if you don't like your errors being pointed out, I have a simple remedy for you - stop making them. I suspect, from long and tedious experience, it's one you won't take on board.

Quote:
Born in the USA is indeed the principle that drives USA nationality laws.

Go on, bore us all about, suppose a baby is born midflight, etc, etc.
As you already pointed out, a baby born anywhere in the world to US parents can claim US citizenship. What being born midflight has to do with it, I have no idea. I suspect neither do you.

Quote:
You either do not understand legal priniciples or you do but just want to be obstreperous.
I think you meant to say "principles".
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 05:17 AM   #466
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,982
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
FIFY. So by that logic we should string up murderers and rapists by their ankles, castrate them and make them suffer a long painful death.
A very good example of a non-sequitur. Nice.

Quote:
No. Dumping your criminals onto other countries to deal with is a gross abrogation of duty and constitutional rights.
She willingly defected to the "Islamic State" and set about squeezing out future terrorists, giving up the freedom and autonomy she enjoyed in Britain to become little more than a piece of meat for their men, and yet she voiced no regrets whatsoever about her actions even after she had spent years there. No regrets despite the fact that the "Islamic State" effectively declared war on the entire world and specifically organized terrorist attacks against the UK.

The main victims of her are the Syrian and Iraqi peoples, and she should own up to what she did to them.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 11th February 2020 at 05:21 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 07:35 AM   #467
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rubbish. I was talking specifically to do with the circumstances around Begum. So it was not necessary to spell out the exceptions to US nationality law.

Born in the USA is indeed the principle that drives USA nationality laws.

Go on, bore us all about, suppose a baby is born midflight, etc, etc.

You either do not understand legal priniciples or you do but just want to be obstreperous.

Had you merely been adding to the comment or pointing out an exception, you wouldn't have needed to descend into abuse and insults on a personal level.

Lucky you getting away with it.
Your semantics don't matter. The twit betrayed her country, her culture and plenty more, and joining a terrorist group has heinous consequences. She's no better than the "American Taliban" guy was from years. Traitor plain and simple, sympathy not included.

So yes, I am saying, join the terrorist become a person without a country.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 02:18 PM   #468
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Your semantics don't matter. The twit betrayed her country, her culture and plenty more, and joining a terrorist group has heinous consequences. She's no better than the "American Taliban" guy was from years. Traitor plain and simple, sympathy not included.

So yes, I am saying, join the terrorist become a person without a country.
And that law was passed when?
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2020, 05:43 PM   #469
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,080
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Home Office has wilfully erred as Begum is over 18 and therefore is NOT entitled to Bangladeshi nationality. To get citizenship by naturalisation means living in a country for anything five years upwards and applying for it.

This does not apply to Begum. Nor is it reasonable to argue thus.
Then she should have no trouble proving that in court.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2020, 02:10 AM   #470
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,177
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Home Office has wilfully erred as Begum is over 18 and therefore is NOT entitled to Bangladeshi nationality. To get citizenship by naturalisation means living in a country for anything five years upwards and applying for it.

This does not apply to Begum. Nor is it reasonable to argue thus.
I have no idea where you got this from, but it is simply not true.
Quote:
Bangladesh’s 1951 Citizenship Act grants citizenship to all those born to a Bangladeshi parent. Where the parent was born in Bangladesh, as in the case of Begum, citizenship passes to the child automatically at birth.
https://internationallaw.blog/2019/0...begums-status/
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2020, 04:57 AM   #471
rockysmith76
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 805
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And that law was passed when?
I suspect you are using that argument rather than deal with an apparent excess of sympathy for one whop doesn't deserve it.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 07:15 AM   #472
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have no idea where you got this from, but it is simply not true.

https://internationallaw.blog/2019/0...begums-status/
I see where the Home Office is coming from: it is applying the de minimis style threshold to what is Bangladeshi latest nationality act. Technically you can't apply law retrospectively. For example, he same government suddenly wants to change the sentencing of several dozen convicted terrorist offenders due to be released having served their prescribed sentence. This is supposedly because of the London Bridge terrorist recently having also just been released. Priti Patel and Boris Johnson have decided that no more such offenders can be similarly released and have amended their sentences! The human rights lawyers opposing it point out it is a breach of the Human Rights Act to change a sentence once it has been ratified.

We also see the same government sending back people who thought they were British to far off countries as a a result of having served sentences of longer than one year.

The attitude in Begum's case is, 'technically her mother was Bangladeshi before she naturalised as British and her child, Shamima, was a British citizen. However, there is a possibility that Shamima could hypothetically become a Bangladeshi citizen (which she is NOT at the moment; there is nothing automatic about it if born abroad to a mother who never registered it as such [as in applying for a passport]) if she was to become a citizen 'by declaration' because of her mother's birth.

That is a far cry from actually being granted it given she has never applied for it and if she did, I feel sure there is a standard clause that rules her out as an 'undesirable citizen'.

Instead of scraping the barrel to the lowest level there was a time the UK aspired to the highest standards of justice. Now it is no better than a tinpot totalitarian republic whose laws are written on the back of an envelope.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 07:18 AM   #473
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I suspect you are using that argument rather than deal with an apparent excess of sympathy for one whop doesn't deserve it.
Nothing to do with sympathy. The UK has criminal courts of law to deal with her alleged offences. I am the rational one, you are the one who wants to deny her basic human rights, not to mention the one as set out in the Magna Carter (=bill of rights) of the right to a fair hearing.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 07:19 AM   #474
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,772
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Instead of scraping the barrel to the lowest level there was a time the UK aspired to the highest standards of justice. Now it is no better than a tinpot totalitarian republic whose laws are written on the back of an envelope.
When you put it that way, Begum is better off staying with ISIS.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 08:36 AM   #475
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,262
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nothing to do with sympathy. The UK has criminal courts of law to deal with her alleged offences. I am the rational one, you are the one who wants to deny her basic human rights, not to mention the one as set out in the Magna Carter (=bill of rights) of the right to a fair hearing.
And who's this Carter fellow?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 09:33 AM   #476
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,637
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And who's this Carter fellow?
Magna? She's a woman.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2020, 04:06 PM   #477
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,982
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She was an idiotic idealistic 15-year-old schoolgirl.

Did you never have any idiotic beliefs when you were younger?

And looking back, do you believe that people never change their beliefs as they grow and mature?
IS never shied away from documenting and publishing the atrocities it was regularly committing, seemingly relishing in the infamy they gained. They also never shied away from its rigidly enforced oppression of women.

Taking that into account she willing decided to join a group of mass-murdering terrorists in the only role she was allowed to serve: as a prize for some terrorist to have sex with and knock up. The only real productive thing she could do was raise future terrorists, although given the precarious conditions that she was in that was highly unlikely to be realistic.

It might easy to dismiss that as being caused by "grooming" or "brainwashing", but the fact that she continued to defend IS and was among the last groups of holdouts is indicative that she continues to agree with IS.

It's like someone deciding to defect to Nazi Germany after watching a movie showing them slaughtering a bunch of defenseless peasants in Eastern Europe, not that the Nazis ever tried to glorify their war-crimes and atrocities unlike IS.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

Last edited by Arcade22; 13th February 2020 at 04:14 PM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2020, 01:25 AM   #478
Cosmic Yak
Illuminator
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 3,177
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I see where the Home Office is coming from: it is applying the de minimis style threshold to what is Bangladeshi latest nationality act.
No, it isn't. The act dates from 1951, as I said in my post.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Technically you can't apply law retrospectively.
They aren't. As I said in my post.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
For example, he same government suddenly wants to change the sentencing of several dozen convicted terrorist offenders due to be released having served their prescribed sentence. This is supposedly because of the London Bridge terrorist recently having also just been released. Priti Patel and Boris Johnson have decided that no more such offenders can be similarly released and have amended their sentences! The human rights lawyers opposing it point out it is a breach of the Human Rights Act to change a sentence once it has been ratified.

We also see the same government sending back people who thought they were British to far off countries as a a result of having served sentences of longer than one year.
Utterly irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The attitude in Begum's case is, 'technically her mother was Bangladeshi before she naturalised as British and her child, Shamima, was a British citizen. However, there is a possibility that Shamima could hypothetically become a Bangladeshi citizen (which she is NOT at the moment; there is nothing automatic about it if born abroad to a mother who never registered it as such [as in applying for a passport]) if she was to become a citizen 'by declaration' because of her mother's birth.

That is a far cry from actually being granted it given she has never applied for it and if she did, I feel sure there is a standard clause that rules her out as an 'undesirable citizen'.
What on earth are you talking about? This is pure fantasy on your part, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual law in question.

Just in case you decide to read it this time:
https://internationallaw.blog/2019/0...begums-status/

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Instead of scraping the barrel to the lowest level there was a time the UK aspired to the highest standards of justice. Now it is no better than a tinpot totalitarian republic whose laws are written on the back of an envelope.
Irrelevant ranting.

Once more, for clarity: Begum is automatically a Bangladeshi citizen. Neither she nor her mother need to apply for anything.
If you want to fight for justice, I suggest you turn your attention to the Bangladeshi government, which is busily disowning one of its citizens, and threatening to execute her should she return there.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:32 AM   #479
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
And who's this Carter fellow?
Can't believe I wrote that.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:44 AM   #480
Vixen
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 18,321
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
IS never shied away from documenting and publishing the atrocities it was regularly committing, seemingly relishing in the infamy they gained. They also never shied away from its rigidly enforced oppression of women.

Taking that into account she willing decided to join a group of mass-murdering terrorists in the only role she was allowed to serve: as a prize for some terrorist to have sex with and knock up. The only real productive thing she could do was raise future terrorists, although given the precarious conditions that she was in that was highly unlikely to be realistic.

It might easy to dismiss that as being caused by "grooming" or "brainwashing", but the fact that she continued to defend IS and was among the last groups of holdouts is indicative that she continues to agree with IS.

It's like someone deciding to defect to Nazi Germany after watching a movie showing them slaughtering a bunch of defenseless peasants in Eastern Europe, not that the Nazis ever tried to glorify their war-crimes and atrocities unlike IS.
First of all, it is illegal in Germany to glorify Nazi war crimes or even Nazi symbolism. Secondly, there are plenty of people who signed up to help the Waffen without being aware of the atrocities taking place in the main land. In one of the war magazines here some Finnish guy says he wanted to join the Nazis when he was aged 16 but once he realised what they were about he turned his back on them. So, should the Finnish government revoke his nationality on the grounds of his naive 16-year-old self? Or what about the Germany government and its allies (for example, Norway and Italy) should they strip tens of thousands of their citizens, together with their children and grandchildren (as most will be dying off now) of their nationality as having once supported Hitler and his abominable ideas?

In any case, until Begum stands trial, you don't know what atrocities she has committed.

I presume you have heard of Stockholm Syndrome? For example, heiress Patty Hearst claims she carried out armed bank robberies with the Symbion (_sp?) Army because as a hostage she became psychologically identified with them.

I can remember in my schooldays being 100% conservative with the attendant views. It was only as an independent adult I realised I only had those views because of the environment and culture I was in. Should I be judged for having once been head of the 'Britons' house, our theme being 'Rule Britannia'?
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:59 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.