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#41 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#42 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,819
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Converts just can't maintain fever-pitch zeal when their world is not evidently coming to an end. Young Kurd women fought on, but privileged teenage Westerners break after a few years.
Who woulda predicted. |
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#43 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,102
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Either she was involved in acts of war for a hostile power, aka treason, or she was abetting a criminal organization. It's a bit tricky when you're dealing with a pseudo-state like ISIS and no formal declarations of war.
I don't see any way to slice this that doesn't end with her in a British jail if she comes back, unless they cut her some serious slack for being underage at the time. |
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Gobble gobble |
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#44 |
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Location: Monkey
Posts: 58,813
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#45 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#46 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,489
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I think it's okay to handle these things on a case-by-case basis. In some cases, such as conventional warfare, you can simply detain people as prisoners of war, and repatriate them once the war is over and terms of surrender have been agreed. No harm, no foul, so to speak.
In other cases, such as unconventional warfare against non-state actors who are likely to persist in some form indefinitely, and for whom there will never be any decisive surrender, the POW model breaks down. See the Guantanamo Bay detention camp. On the other hand, you're only dealing with a relatively small population of enemy combatants. It's much easier to address such prisoners individually, rather than as a class. I think there's a very strong humanitarian case to be made for bringing this child home and giving her a chance to recover and do something else with her life. I think there's also a very strong criminal and civil justice case to be made for putting her on trial and holding her accountable for going to war against her own country. And I think that both these cases can be made together, in concert. But to be clear: I'm not proposing a one-size-fits-all solution. I'm not saying this should be a general rule applied to everyone. I think it's in society's best interests to handle these case-by-case, and reserve the privilege of doing something different in each case.
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#47 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 48,489
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#48 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,656
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"I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044 |
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#49 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
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#50 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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Just on whether she's broken any laws apart from joining an illegal terrorist organisation and specifically going to Syria to help IS wage a lethal war, in the Times newspaper interview she says of the fighting that's been raging in the last few weeks in Baghuz I was weak, I could not endure the suffering and hardship that staying on the battlefield involved .
She appears there to be confirming that although heavily pregnant, she was actually staying on the battlefield (of course we might think the battlefield involved the entire town, such that she could not avoid staying on the battlefield however, she also says that in the final few days the women were all offered the option of leaving the battlefield, and that after some time (days or weeks), she decided to walk away from that battlefield). When asked what her reaction was to seeing her first severed head (in a bin), she not only said it did not phaze me, but added that it was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam, I thought only of what he would have done to a Muslim woman if he had the chance. There she appears to be repeating the same propaganda statement that has appeared from almost every UK Islamic fundamentalist on trial in the UK (that's now several hundred of them) where almost all of them said in trial evidence or said in martyrdom videos or where they were recorded in phone transcripts etc., that one reason they were trying to kill the kuffa (i.e. non-believers, opponents of hard-line Islam) was because their western opponents were killing and raping our women and children. Regarding her marriage to an Islamic fighter she was aged 15 when she left the UK, and she says in the article that as soon as she got to Raqqa (Syria) I applied to marry an English speaking fighter between the ages of 20 and 25 yeas old and within 10 days she was married. She then had two children who both died, and now she has been pregnant with a third child of the IS fighter for nearly 9 months. That sounds to me almost like these girls are deliberately going to the front-line battle area to instantly marry a jihadist fighter within days, and producing as many children as possible to be raised in that Jihadist battle environment. None of that sounds to me anything at all like a person who has much if any concern that she has done anything wrong or that she needs to change her mind about supporting IS in it's campaign of worldwide mass murder. However, despite all of that - if she is nevertheless allowed back into the UK, then afaik she is likely to be tried for terrorist offences and quite probably jailed for some years. And (according to "experts" discussing this on BBC radio this morning) her child would probably taken into state care and placed with more suitable parents who are not trying to raise Islamist fundamentalist fighters. |
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#51 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,716
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Yeah regardless of everything else this young woman (calling her a 'girl' infantalizes her too much imo) isn't acting like she's sorry she joined ISIS, just that it's too much for her to handle.
It's like she wants to go back to the UK because she doesn't like ISIS's maternal leave policy. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#52 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#53 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#54 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,716
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#55 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,770
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One of the problems we are having (at least in Canada) is actually making a legal case against them... We can claim they are guilty of treason, or "aiding a terrorist organization" (or whatever the charge is), but how do you make the case? Its doubtful ISIS was keeping accurate census records, and trying to interview eye-witnesses in a hostile territory is difficult. Anyone who returns can just claim "I was backpacking in Europe for a couple of years and lost my passport".
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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#56 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,489
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I'm not sure I see the problem. It's customary for the state to not make a case against someone who has an alibi. Wrongdoers go free all the time because the state can't gather enough evidence to convict - or even prosecute. This is generally considered to be a feature, not a bug, of the system.
That said, if you have someone in custody, and you *can* make a case... Then do it. |
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#57 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,716
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And regardless that hardly applies to a case like this where the woman is hardly putting any effort into denying or hiding it.
We'll worry about the cases where they claim they weren't later. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#58 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer pċ! |
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#59 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
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She's incriminated herself enough for a number of charges to stick, certainly enough to get her life in jail, and the intelligence services will have her communications from before she went. The problem is, if she does return, she won't get life because of 'sentencing guidelines' relating to her age and 'vulnerability'.
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#60 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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It transpires that the father of one of the girls took part in a flag burning exercise by one of the hate preachers. He has to take some responsibility for his daughter's inculcation with radicalism.
This Shamima Begum woman, although she sounds vile, was just fifteen when she was caught up in idealistic fervour. She has become detached from reality, living as she has for four years in a rabid fanatical environment (rather like people rescued from brainwashing cults). She likely feels cognitive dissonance in feelings of comradeship on the one hand with her fellow 'fighters' and her desire to give her unborn child a better life by returning to the UK. Perhaps the UK should turn the other cheek, show compassion (for the innocent baby, at least) and demonstrate to the deluded zealots how Christianity works. Love thine enemy, not behead them. |
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer pċ! |
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#61 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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God knows I do not want to sound like Trump,but you have a genuine security issue also. I hope if she comes back and is not charged she is kept under very tight police surveillance. She volunatary joined the most murderous Terrorist organization in the world, for heaven's sake.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#62 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,813
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By that reasoning, no criminal should ever be punished for any crime. I have to wonder if you are being serious here. And you could apply the whole wraped up in a rabid fananticail enviorment statement to the Nazi guards who ran the gas chambers as Auschwitz. It might be an explanation, but it's not an excuse. |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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#63 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 20,135
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer pċ! |
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#64 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Location: Hong Kong
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#65 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,770
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The problem is, the returning ISIS people don't actually have an alibi... at least not a verified one.
So, you're potentially introducing a large number of individuals who (at one point anyways) were hostile to the ideals of their home nation with no punishment for any illegal actions that they have done and little ability to track their activities upon returning.
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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#66 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,770
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I agree that in this case (and many others) they have enough evidence to make the charges stick. But its not that way for everyone.
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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#67 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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In this UK case the woman (Shamima Begum) has admitted her deliberate and intentional part in joining IS specifically to fight a jihadist war. And just the few quotes that I gave above from her interview with the Times journalist, show beyond doubt that she knew what she was doing, knew why she was doing it, and that even now she still thinks it was and is the best & most correct thing to do (she is still supporting IS attempts to form a religious caliphate by jihadist war) ... ... if she is charged in the UK with terrorist offences (and afaik there's a long list of things she'd probably be charged with), then her admissions to the journalist (where she knew who she was talking to, and knew that it would all be published for people to read in Times newspaper), are really undeniable in any trial. This is not like the many other cases where a person returning from IS in Syria (or wherever), is arrested at a UK airport, and where they immediately maintain their innocence. That actually did happen in the case of another UK Muslim woman Tareena Shakil who was arrested on her return to the UK after a year with IS in Syria (2014 to 2015), but in her case she protested her innocence and told a story about how she was actually trying to escape from IS but in court it was shown that her escape story was untrue. She was found guilty and sentenced to 6 years in prison. When she left to join IS in Syria she also took her 14 month old son ... she had posed him in photos wearing an IS inscribed wooly hat and with an AK47 alongside him ... it was shown in court that her intention was to ensure that he was raised to grow up as an IS fighter). |
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#68 |
Master Poster
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#69 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 48,489
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They also don't have solid incriminating evidence against them. Again, in our system of criminal justice, this is fine.
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I think we would all be overjoyed if you could solve the problem of the murderer who walked away free because we couldn't find enough evidence to convict him. If for no other reason than that we could apply the same solution to the problem of the terrorist soldier who goes free for lack of evidence.
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#70 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
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All the more reason not to import more, or to cage them if that's not an option. The resources to monitor a single person 24/7 are staggering - 20 to 30 security agents costing millions a year for one individual (the free housing and benefits given to the terrorist and her family pale into insignificance compared to this this cost). The UK harbours between 500 and 1000 known violent extremists (I hate that word) and around 23,000 more known terrorist supporters and viable terrorist risks. Our security services have the resource to monitor only a few dozen of these round the clock at any one time. It only takes one to cause carnage, as we've seen so often. The problem here is not insufficient evidence to convict, nor is it inadequate legislation, it's soft sentencing guidelines.
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#71 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
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One other rather unexpected thing Shamima Begun said in that interview, is that she now wants to return to the UK and she says I will do anything required just to come home and live quietly with my child. She appears not to realise that she is likely to be arrested and that she probably will not be simply left to live quietly with my child as if nothing wrong had ever happened.
I don't want to be unkind to this woman. And I'd always prefer to see compassion and tolerance shown by the UK security services. But there have been several hundred UK Muslims who have now returned to the UK after fighting with IS or silmilar groups abroad, and apart from the fact that it seems like a large number of those have now gone missing and are untraceable within the UK, afaik most of the rest have all had to be kept under constant surveillance as a security risk i.e., these are dangerous people (some of them, very dangerous indeed), and I'm not sure how the UK security services could exclude Miss Begum from that dangeorus group. |
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#72 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,649
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Trump lost and he knows it.
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#73 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,649
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Trump lost and he knows it.
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#74 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
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#75 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 739
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I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid. |
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#76 |
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
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Her father is quoted as saying, "'They were manipulated by evil people and they should be brought home and helped. Not punished."
He's correct, they were manipulated by evil people, and he is one of them - the main one, in fact. He took her along to hear Anjem Choudary speak (Choudary is an open supporter of ISIS and is associated with practically every convicted Islamic terrorist in the UK) and was integral in making her what she is today. What in the name of Christ are these people even doing in the UK? It boggles the mind. |
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#77 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 23,284
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Seems she wanted to join ISIS, regardless of the consequences.
Now she seems to want to join the ordinary society. Let her do it, regardless of consequences. Hans |
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Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills. |
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#78 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,853
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Folks, again, she didn't decide to leave ISIS because of her pregnancy or anything else. She HAD TO flee the daily bombardment of the few villages (now only a few street corners) the cult's territory has been reduced to. Now she is in a refugee camp controlled by Kurdish fighters, the ground forces of the "US-led coalition" that does the bombing. They have a busy schedule awaiting a possible Turkish invasion. Why should they shoulder the burden of taking care for these people (or "getting rid of them" somehow)? They have to return to the societies that produced them.
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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#79 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#80 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 18,853
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I studied matter for all of my life just to find that there is no such thing - Hans-Peter Dürr |
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