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Old 14th March 2019, 06:26 AM   #161
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My bet is USC bends every rule to keep those kids enrolled. They are pissed they didn't get a cut of the 500k and want their share.
My guess is that they'll want to be rid of anyone connected with it as soon as possible.

USC Says It Will Deny Admission To All Students Connected To The Cheating Scheme

Quote:
The school will also begin a "case-by-case review of current students and graduates that may be connected to the scheme."
Quote:
LOS ANGELES — The university most embroiled in the elaborate, nationwide admissions scandal announced late Wednesday it will deny all student applicants linked to the scam and has begun reviewing current students and graduates who may be connected.
The review will show that these students lied on their admissions applications.
Right now damage control is a higher priority. Universities have an intangible "brand value" sort of thing, and the "brand" must be protected at all costs as it will affect future students and future charitable donations.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:30 AM   #162
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It's almost as if running education as a business somehow corrupts it. Nah, that can't be it, capitalism is wholly good and involving money in everything only makes things better, never worse.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:42 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's almost as if running education as a business somehow corrupts it. Nah, that can't be it, capitalism is wholly good and involving money in everything only makes things better, never worse.
If it was ran as a business there wouldn't be a crime here. There would be an explicit price to enroll a student of their quality.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:57 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If it was ran as a business there wouldn't be a crime here. There would be an explicit price to enroll a student of their quality.
There is. The price of tuition is set by the Board of Education and funded by the property tax payer base. Like a fire department, the services are available to residents of the district.

The taxpayers have not agreed to foot the bill for the children of people who live in some other community.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:01 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
My guess is that they'll want to be rid of anyone connected with it as soon as possible.

USC Says It Will Deny Admission To All Students Connected To The Cheating Scheme


The review will show that these students lied on their admissions applications.
Right now damage control is a higher priority. Universities have an intangible "brand value" sort of thing, and the "brand" must be protected at all costs as it will affect future students and future charitable donations.
Sounds like we have grounds for a sig bet. Maybe something like if Olivia Jade is expelled you win, otherwise I win?
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is. The price of tuition is set by the Board of Education and funded by the property tax payer base. Like a fire department, the services are available to residents of the district.

The taxpayers have not agreed to foot the bill for the children of people who live in some other community.
Except of course that fire departments do that all the time. That is why there was an outcry when the fire department lets homes burn even outside their tax base. See

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39516346/n...let-home-burn/
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:26 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is. The price of tuition is set by the Board of Education and funded by the property tax payer base. Like a fire department, the services are available to residents of the district.

The taxpayers have not agreed to foot the bill for the children of people who live in some other community.
If I am driving my car in another state, and it starts on fire, does the fire department not come and put it out? Of course they do. Your premise fails.

So given that services like the fire department ARE AVAILABLE to residents outside the district, what is left of your argument?
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Old 14th March 2019, 08:07 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If I am driving my car in another state, and it starts on fire, does the fire department not come and put it out? Of course they do. Your premise fails.

So given that services like the fire department ARE AVAILABLE to residents outside the district, what is left of your argument?
I'm sure you could figure out all by yourself that a fire department responds to fires within their district. Your hometown fire department would not travel out of state to go put your car out if you are traveling.

In case you planned to further this line of thinking...yes, a school might also take in kids from out of district, just like a fire department might respond to request for assistance in another district. There is a procedure in place to do so. As a resident of a district, you don't get to simply demand which fires get put out by which fire departments.

I can't even believe I responded to this.
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Old 14th March 2019, 09:59 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There is. The price of tuition is set by the Board of Education and funded by the property tax payer base. Like a fire department, the services are available to residents of the district.

The taxpayers have not agreed to foot the bill for the children of people who live in some other community.
I don't think Bob was talking about primary education. College education is not funded the way you describe.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:43 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm sure you could figure out all by yourself that a fire department responds to fires within their district.
And schools are taught within their district.

Meanwhile, fire departments extinguish fires from everyone who is in their district, whether they live and pay taxes there or not.

Still don't see how this makes your argument.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:45 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And schools are taught within their district.

Meanwhile, fire departments extinguish fires from everyone who is in their district, whether they live and pay taxes there or not.

Still don't see how this makes your argument.
Why does it even matter? This thread is about colleges, not primary schools.
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Old 14th March 2019, 11:00 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why does it even matter? This thread is about colleges, not primary schools.
That's what it was about to begin with. Then it got derailed by someone who decided the actual topic was not appropriate.
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Old 14th March 2019, 04:21 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's pretty much granted on request, no bribe required. Little documentation, let alone bribes, required.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f5bdd3461ff7
Believe me, when I was applying, it was *not* granted freely.

I'm lucky, in that I kill on multiple-choice exams, and I wasn't around when the SATs had a written section. I got slaughtered on the APs, though, because we couldn't get any sort of time exemption, where timed, written responses were required.

I'm not at all angry at the kids, they're just doing what they are/were taught to do, but as to the parents...look, I'm generally against putting people in prison unless they do something that could or does harm another. But if you spend $1million just to bribe your kid into an "elite" school, I don't have any sympathy for you. Kids, starting literally at 1st grade, bust their asses just trying for a spot there. I did, some of my friends did. The idea of people getting in due to "legacy", or due to donations, was always infuriating. That they'd break the law to bribe people...I have no sympathy at all.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:21 PM   #174
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One more sign of a late capitalist system that's falling apart.
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Old 14th March 2019, 06:55 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
One more sign of a late capitalist system that's falling apart.
Two thirds of their students receive financial aid. Governments distort markets.

ETA: you get rid of government subsidy of education and government regulation, and government administration of schools, and this problem is greatly reduced.

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Old 14th March 2019, 07:54 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's what it was about to begin with. Then it got derailed by someone who decided the actual topic was not appropriate.
We could say that johnnykarate introduced those tales as a means of reflection, to evaluate how we judge the rich lying and cheating to get in certain schools, versus how we view the poor trying to do the same. The discussion might touch on relative values of class and...

Well, we could say that anyway.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:12 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
One more sign of a late capitalist system that's falling apart.
Yep, the rich pay their way, and we are ruled by their failsons and faildaughters.

Meritocracy my hairy white ass.
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Old 15th March 2019, 01:17 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
My guess is that they'll want to be rid of anyone connected with it as soon as possible.

USC Says It Will Deny Admission To All Students Connected To The Cheating Scheme
You appear to have cheated when making your guess.
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Old 15th March 2019, 01:46 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Two thirds of their students receive financial aid. Governments distort markets.

ETA: you get rid of government subsidy of education and government regulation, and government administration of schools, and this problem is greatly reduced.
Those are the same markets where banks received trillions in bailouts due to fallout from financial speculation made possible through---deregulation.

And the solution is more deregulation. Good grief.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:11 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
Those are the same markets where banks received trillions in bailouts due to fallout from financial speculation made possible through---deregulation.

And the solution is more deregulation. Good grief.
You can't look at a problem caused by a combination of deregulation AND subsidy and conclude that just deregulation is what is wrong. The subsidy part is critical to the pathology.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:20 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Sounds like we have grounds for a sig bet. Maybe something like if Olivia Jade is expelled you win, otherwise I win?
Not interested. She may quit before she's expelled, making it moot.

But we'll see what happens.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:31 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You appear to have cheated when making your guess.
Guilty, but I googled that because I was skeptical about what he said, and sure enough they do care about appearances. And it doesn't require believing that they would behave honestly if the spotlight wasn't on them, just that they know that limiting the damage to their reputation is more important right now than grabbing for the money while the spotlight is on.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:15 AM   #183
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Wonder if the investigation will show if any of these cheat cases occurred far enough back for a student to have graduated by now. What then? Yank the diploma?

I am also curious whether or not current students will be expelled. If there are clear cases of the students being complicit I imagine expelling would be in order. There may be some cases where students have plausible deniability of knowing it was happening. Those will be trickier.

I am of the opinion that every student should be removed. Even if they didn't know, they should be expelled. They can take it up with their parents if they think it's unfair.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:43 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wonder if the investigation will show if any of these cheat cases occurred far enough back for a student to have graduated by now. What then? Yank the diploma?

I am also curious whether or not current students will be expelled. If there are clear cases of the students being complicit I imagine expelling would be in order. There may be some cases where students have plausible deniability of knowing it was happening. Those will be trickier.

I am of the opinion that every student should be removed. Even if they didn't know, they should be expelled. They can take it up with their parents if they think it's unfair.
I dunno. If the students did the work they were supposed to do, got decent grades and even graduated, maybe they belonged there after all. I'm not sure wrecking the kid's life is the right response for what their parents did.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:51 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I dunno. If the students did the work they were supposed to do, got decent grades and even graduated, maybe they belonged there after all. I'm not sure wrecking the kid's life is the right response for what their parents did.
It's certainly an interesting question.

It may never be resolved depending on the specifics. I await to see if there are any cases where it is plausible that the student did not know that some form of fraud was occurring. Given the MO of the fraud, I am trying to imagine a case where the student can claim plausible deniability.

From the perspective of the university, allowing a student to remain enrolled under such terrible circumstances seems like PR suicide. The smart play, in order to protect their prestige, would be to bring down the hammer on everyone.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:07 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wonder if the investigation will show if any of these cheat cases occurred far enough back for a student to have graduated by now. What then? Yank the diploma?

I am also curious whether or not current students will be expelled. If there are clear cases of the students being complicit I imagine expelling would be in order. There may be some cases where students have plausible deniability of knowing it was happening. Those will be trickier.

I am of the opinion that every student should be removed. Even if they didn't know, they should be expelled. They can take it up with their parents if they think it's unfair.
Most people don't graduate college. It wouldn't wreck anything. It is the norm.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:12 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And schools are taught within their district.

Meanwhile, fire departments extinguish fires from everyone who is in their district, whether they live and pay taxes there or not.

Still don't see how this makes your argument.
Fire departments service the fire fighting needs of those within their district, and are paid by the taxpayers of that district.

Schools service the educational needs of those within their district, and are paid by the taxpayers of that district.

That's it.

Since you are challenging this, is your point that teachers and firefighters roam the countryside, servicing all who need it? What is your point in arguing? Are you claiming school districts provide education for any student anywhere, regardless of where they live?
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:29 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fire departments service the fire fighting needs of those within their district, and are paid by the taxpayers of that district.

Schools service the educational needs of those within their district, and are paid by the taxpayers of that district.

That's it.

Since you are challenging this, is your point that teachers and firefighters roam the countryside, servicing all who need it? What is your point in arguing? Are you claiming school districts provide education for any student anywhere, regardless of where they live?
Schools all teach in their own districts, yes. Just as fire departments put out fires within their districts.

But for fire departments, who they serve does not depend on whether the person lives in the district or not. Someone from outside the district has a fire within in the district, the fire department serves them.

That's why your comparison fails. If schools were like the fire department, someone who wandered into the district could just attend the school and the school would teach them, regardless of whether they pay anything in the district.

Remember, you were the one who made the comparison to the fire department, not me.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:38 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
firefighters roam the countryside, servicing all who need it?
You have given me an idea for a series of specialized genre films.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:51 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Schools all teach in their own districts, yes. Just as fire departments put out fires within their districts.

But for fire departments, who they serve does not depend on whether the person lives in the district or not. Someone from outside the district has a fire within in the district, the fire department serves them.

That's why your comparison fails. If schools were like the fire department, someone who wandered into the district could just attend the school and the school would teach them, regardless of whether they pay anything in the district.

Remember, you were the one who made the comparison to the fire department, not me.
Dissecting analogies till you find some element that is an imperfect comparison is pointless. Analogies are used to make the language concrete and relatable, so that any speech does not sound like the reading of a technical manual. Flogging an imperfect element to death is only relevant if you disagree with the point of the comparison. So, again, are you disagreeing that schools provide education only for their residents? That is the issue under discussion. Or do you claim they provide free education for anyone, regardless of where they live? Or is it more to criticize the analogy, and no actual point?

In my US State, like most, schooling is provided to residents of a district. In the case of homeless people, a hearing is held to insure that they are actually residents, and didn't just stroll into the nearest wealthy area and declare themselves so.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:55 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You have given me an idea for a series of specialized genre films.
I'm just surprised you didn't already have that idea.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:55 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You have given me an idea for a series of specialized genre films.
"Squirters Without Borders"
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:56 AM   #193
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Of course the guy who blew the whistle was a Yale alumnus who was being investigated for securities fraud.

Quote:
Tobin reportedly told the Feds that he had heard that the women’s soccer coach at Yale (presumably Rudy Meredith, who resigned from his post in November, was recently charged in connection to the fraud case, and has reportedly pleaded guilty) was soliciting bribes in exchange for getting Tobin’s daughter into the school. He told the Feds about the college admissions scam in exchange for leniency during sentencing.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:08 AM   #194
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Of course the guy who blew the whistle was a Yale alumnus who was being investigated for securities fraud.
No honor among thieves.
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Old 16th March 2019, 12:13 AM   #195
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The little details that continue to come out are so entertaining. Evidently Lori Loughlin's husband is a huge Trump supporter and embarrassed himself mouthing off at a party just a couple of weeks ago about how "entitled people" need to "carry their own weight".
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Old 16th March 2019, 12:39 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can't look at a problem caused by a combination of deregulation AND subsidy and conclude that just deregulation is what is wrong. The subsidy part is critical to the pathology.
My understanding is that this issue does not involve subsidies but parents of rich applicants who bribed school officials so that their children would be admitted.

My point is that this event is part of a late capitalist system that's falling apart, as the rich use their financial power to bribe, with those who accept eager to enrich themselves in a society where money matters more than anything else.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:48 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by ralfyman View Post
My understanding is that this issue does not involve subsidies but parents of rich applicants who bribed school officials so that their children would be admitted.
2/3rds of their students receive financial aid. All that government money and regulation corrupts an organization. That affects the whole organization's structure.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:56 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Wonder if the investigation will show if any of these cheat cases occurred far enough back for a student to have graduated by now. What then? Yank the diploma?

I am also curious whether or not current students will be expelled. If there are clear cases of the students being complicit I imagine expelling would be in order. There may be some cases where students have plausible deniability of knowing it was happening. Those will be trickier.

I am of the opinion that every student should be removed. Even if they didn't know, they should be expelled. They can take it up with their parents if they think it's unfair.
Perhaps letting them reapply would be a better approach, then those that should have been there can continue and those that shouldn't will be kicked out.
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Old 16th March 2019, 05:29 AM   #199
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These schools must make amends to the students and parents they cheated. Refunding all the tuition of the entire current student body and paying for their remaining education at other schools should suffice.
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Old 16th March 2019, 08:14 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Of course the guy who blew the whistle was a Yale alumnus who was being investigated for securities fraud.
No honor among thieves.

When it comes to exposing criminal conspiracies, honest people aren't in a position to provide information.
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