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Old 21st March 2019, 01:38 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOmehow I doubt talking with ISIS is going to save lives.
Good job nobody mentioned them before you did, then.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:38 PM   #282
The Don
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Finally managed to authenticate signing the petition, as #1,411,868.
Mrs Don and I have been waiting for some time.....

....which prompts the question of how many others haven't been able to.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:44 PM   #283
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If the petition gets to 17 million does it cancel Brexit by default?

I always get a bit dismayed by these petitions which seem to be the ultimate in 'doing something without actually doing anything'
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:45 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Mrs Don and I have been waiting for some time.....

....which prompts the question of how many others haven't been able to.
They seem to have rejiggered the website so that it does not auto-refresh as often - maybe every 1/2 hour? It showed no change for a while, then added about 100k votes, and just now added about another 50k - it is at 1,478,382 signatures right now.

So the front-facing website seems stable now, but the actual process of signing the petition might still be a problem.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:52 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
They seem to have rejiggered the website so that it does not auto-refresh as often - maybe every 1/2 hour? It showed no change for a while, then added about 100k votes, and just now added about another 50k - it is at 1,478,382 signatures right now.

So the front-facing website seems stable now, but the actual process of signing the petition might still be a problem.
There was one point when the numbers were changing every few seconds without having to refresh the page.

The map view of the data certainly doesn't suggest anything iffy going on, as the hot-spots of higher numbers of signatures are exactly where you'd expect them to be.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 21st March 2019 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 02:06 PM   #286
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The problems we had were in waiting a good while to receive the authentication email (which went into junk, but we were expecting that), then many 'Error 502 - bad gateway' messages when clicking the authenticate link. We just left the email open and tried every 20 minutes.
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Old 21st March 2019, 02:07 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
On the BBC News just now, in introducing Bob Blackman MP (Con), it was said that he, "represents Harrow East; he voted to Leave originally, and has recently come round to backing [May's] deal." Absent was any mention of the fact that 52.52% of his constituents backed Remain (54.6% in Harrow as a whole). In contrast, Jim Fitzpatrick MP (Lab) was merely described as someone who had previously opposed May's deal, but now supported it. There was no mention that an estimated 65.79% of his constituents voted Remain.
What about Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North?
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Old 21st March 2019, 02:18 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Is that a challenge?

Because if you want to make it a competition, we Yanks might just give you Limeys a run for the money.

Which is probably more depressing than funny....
Both governments have already beaten any Czech government by a large margin... (And we had very good entrants)

Originally Posted by crescent View Post
They seem to have rejiggered the website so that it does not auto-refresh as often - maybe every 1/2 hour? It showed no change for a while, then added about 100k votes, and just now added about another 50k - it is at 1,478,382 signatures right now.

So the front-facing website seems stable now, but the actual process of signing the petition might still be a problem.
Quite sane. Those DB queries are not cheap, even if they are seemingly simple counts.
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Old 21st March 2019, 02:54 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
What about Harriet Jones, MP for Flydale North?
Looking increasingly tired...
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:31 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Finally managed to authenticate signing the petition, as #1,411,868.
Two hours later it is at 2,002,343. Now that they've got the website working again they are getting about 250-300k signatures per hour.

Last edited by crescent; 21st March 2019 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:44 PM   #291
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THE UK gets a postpoment:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47660019

I am betting in a few weeks, we will be at this same crisis point again, with no deal in sight.

I doubt that the MPs are going to pass the negotiated deal this time around.
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Last edited by dudalb; 21st March 2019 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 04:44 PM   #292
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This is from Wikipedia: "Brexit is the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, which is scheduled to take place on 22 May 2019 at 11 pm UK time after an extension was granted by the EU on March 21, 2019 contingent on the UK House of Commons approving some form of an exit agreement by 12 April 2019."

Also being reported by multiple news sources in the U.S., including the Washington Post.

Edited to add: "Beat me by this much" in a poor Don Adams imitation.
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Last edited by Elvis666; 21st March 2019 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Beat by a nose by dudalb
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:29 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I have also always found it a little strange that she seems to have become so passionately pro-Brexit after the referendum which, after all, was won by "Leave" with only a tiny majority of not even 52%, even though she personally chose "Remain". Respecting the people's choice is one thing (and this may indeed be important in a democracy). But avoiding possible economic catastrophe, and a lot of trouble of various kinds is another priority that an important leader like her cannot just ignore and forget.
I make two observations about this whole mess - which have probably been noted before elsewhere:

1. May should never have been tempted to start Article 50 after the general election result giving her a very shaky coalition. I think you would need a strong party in power to make this happen successfully.

2. Clearly there are many ways to leave the EU (many potential deals in the various areas such as Laws, Markets, Currency, Immigration and free movement of individuals etc). Having a referredum based on such a blunt question of leave or remain makes no sense. It should maybe have included a Yes/No for each of these areas, or at least set up for another vote on whatever actual deal is struck at a later date.

3. I have always thought that there should have been set a rule for a clear majority in the referendum, mainly because of the amount of possible month to month sway of peoples opinion - depending whats been going on at any one time. Another referendum now could have a similar swing in the other direction - and then later back again. So to just say "it's the will of the people" is quite wrong IMO. It may have been the will by quite a small margin on that particular day - but what about 2 years ltr based on what circumstances.

Pah, complete balls up from start to finish.
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Old 21st March 2019, 10:48 PM   #294
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So crash out on April 12th if no agreement passed in Parliament - and no longer extension granted - in the meantime?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 12:29 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
This is from Wikipedia: "Brexit is the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, which is scheduled to take place on 22 May 2019 at 11 pm UK time after an extension was granted by the EU on March 21, 2019 contingent on the UK House of Commons approving some form of an exit agreement by 12 April 2019."

Also being reported by multiple news sources in the U.S., including the Washington Post.

Edited to add: "Beat me by this much" in a poor Don Adams imitation.
Someone seems to have jumped the gun., the legislation is very clear that at the moment we leave the EU on 29th March.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 12:33 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THE UK gets a postpoment:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47660019

I am betting in a few weeks, we will be at this same crisis point again, with no deal in sight.

I doubt that the MPs are going to pass the negotiated deal this time around.
There's a bunch of other stuff they could pass in the meantime. The petition to revoke article 50 attracted 1.5 million new signatures since yesterday noon, when it had 800 thousand, to today 7 a.m. (both London time). Parliament is now supposed to debate it. The petition attracted more signatures in the last 24 hours than any previous petition ever did. This isn't something the elected representatives can simply ignore.

The solution is obvious: vote to hold another referendum. Give five options, no deal, the negotiated deal, a closer relationship than the negotated deal, a looser relationship than the negotiated deal with a customs border in the Irish sea and revoke article 50. Make it a ranked referendum, rank the first four in order.

Also, hand out Wakizashis to the ERG and all others who find the idea of letting the people decide unbearable.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:01 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
So crash out on April 12th if no agreement passed in Parliament - and no longer extension granted - in the meantime?
Can't they cancel article 50 instead?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:07 AM   #298
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I was right in my prediction that there would be no Brexit on March 29 at least.

I really think that they should hold another referendum.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:08 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Can't they cancel article 50 instead?
They could.
It would make sense, it would be good for the country

BUT

it would be political suicide for a few, so it won't happen.

Let your country die for you.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:10 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I was right in my prediction that there would be no Brexit on March 29 at least.

I really think that they should hold another referendum.
We're still leaving on the 29th unless parliament agrees to the terms of the delay......
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:12 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I was right in my prediction that there would be no Brexit on March 29 at least.

I really think that they should hold another referendum.
My issue with that is if people were smarter a few years ago, brexit would have been rejected. A smarter electorate would need only one vote. But that means dumber votes would be getting more chances to vote than smarter ones. They get more democracy, in a sense.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:31 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
They could.
It would make sense, it would be good for the country

BUT

it would be political suicide for a few, so it won't happen.

Let your country die for you.
Theresa May’s career is over and her party is probably finished too. She might as well throw herself on the grenade.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:43 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
I make two observations about this whole mess - which have probably been noted before elsewhere:

1. May should never have been tempted to start Article 50 after the general election result giving her a very shaky coalition. I think you would need a strong party in power to make this happen successfully.
It's worse than that, she called a General Election after triggering Article 50. On top of that, Brexit didn't even feature much as a topic of debate during the campaign.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:43 AM   #304
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The petition is currently at 2.6 million, it grew by 2 million in 24 hours. At this rate it's believable the Parliament will be facing five million signatures next week.
You can't ignore this and rant about "will of the people". You have to choose, it's one or the other.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:45 AM   #305
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So, if I've understood this correctly, if the third vote fails, then (assuming the legislation is quickly amended, which I expect it to be) Parliament gets til the 12th April to come up with a way forward which (outisde of outright ditching Article 50, or dropping out) would result in a longer extension in order to facilitate whatever the solution is (eg a referendum).

Does the sound right?

I'm ignoring the possibility of May's deal being voted through as I think that is even more unlikely now than it was yesterday.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:51 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
So, if I've understood this correctly, if the third vote fails, then (assuming the legislation is quickly amended, which I expect it to be) Parliament gets til the 12th April to come up with a way forward which (outisde of outright ditching Article 50, or dropping out) would result in a longer extension in order to facilitate whatever the solution is (eg a referendum).

Does the sound right?
Yup. Although Parliament begins Easter recess on April 5th, so they only have a week to get their feces together. That should be plenty, there aren't that many options to choose from (referendum or election), only one of which would provide a useful answer (the referendum).

Quote:
I'm ignoring the possibility of May's deal being voted through as I think that is even more unlikely now than it was yesterday.
It'll probably get another spot in the top 10 of worst defeats of a government. Maybe even the coveted top spot itself.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 01:56 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
There's a bunch of other stuff they could pass in the meantime. The petition to revoke article 50 attracted 1.5 million new signatures since yesterday noon, when it had 800 thousand, to today 7 a.m. (both London time). Parliament is now supposed to debate it. The petition attracted more signatures in the last 24 hours than any previous petition ever did. This isn't something the elected representatives can simply ignore.
I wouldn't put money on that.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 02:04 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
We're still leaving on the 29th unless parliament agrees to the terms of the delay......
Going on current form, it would take three years to negotiate the terms of the delay.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 02:14 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I wouldn't put money on that.
Given that TM has already clearly stated her intention of ignoring it, neither would I. After all, when TM says she's going to do something...

Hang on, there may be a problem with my reasoning there.

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Old 22nd March 2019, 02:24 AM   #310
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Liked this. For those unfamiliar with the works of the great Bernard Cribbens this is the the tune it's set to:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


“Right, ” said May “Gonna have a Brexit
Strong and simples, steady as we go”
Went to Brussels, tried to flex her muscles
She was getting nowhere
And so she had a cuppa tea and


“Right, ” said May “Give a shout for Boris”
“Rah!” say Boris “this won’t take a mo!”
Told them “whistle”, made the EU bristle
He was getting nowhere
And so we had a cuppa tea

Now the PM had a think
And she thought we ought
To find someone to save us
So she called for David Davis
But he did no good
Did she really think he would?

“Right ” said May “DUP is needed
Call up Arlene, bung her lots of dough”
What a giggle, made the PM wriggle
Should have got her somewhere but no!
So May said “Let’s have another cuppa tea.”
And we said, “right-o”

“Right, ” said May, “Gonna need a backstop
Irish border, keep the status quo”
Her idea bit her in the rear
And it got her nowhere
And so we had a cuppa tea and

“Right, ” said May “Here’s the ultimatum
Vote this through coz it’s our final throw”
Croaky throat too, couldn’t get the vote through
She was getting nowhere
And so we had a cuppa tea.

Jacob had a think, and he said, “Look chaps
I get a sort of feeling
If we can slip no deal in
With a bribe or two we could force our Brexit through.”

“Right!” said May, loading up a shotgun
Peace and progress – everything must go
Was she in trouble, emptied both barrels,
Shot herself in both feet again!
So suck it and see but you musn’t blame me
I voted remain
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Old 22nd March 2019, 02:33 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Liked this. For those unfamiliar with the works of the great Bernard Cribbens this is the the tune it's set to:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


“Right, ” said May “Gonna have a Brexit
Strong and simples, steady as we go”
Went to Brussels, tried to flex her muscles
She was getting nowhere
And so she had a cuppa tea and

...
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Old 22nd March 2019, 02:55 AM   #312
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EU agreed extension to 22nd May if MPs agree next week to PM May's deal. Otherwise extension to 12th April to come up with something else.

The EU want May's deal because of all the options at the moment it is the best deal for them. No deal is bad and the EU do not want the UK to get more time to try and negotiate a deal that is better for the UK as, obviously, the EU wants it to be worse not being in the EU than being in the EU.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:02 AM   #313
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Top marks Pixel42!
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:04 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
EU agreed extension to 22nd May if MPs agree next week to PM May's deal. Otherwise extension to 12th April to come up with something else.

The EU want May's deal because of all the options at the moment it is the best deal for them. No deal is bad and the EU do not want the UK to get more time to try and negotiate a deal that is better for the UK as, obviously, the EU wants it to be worse not being in the EU than being in the EU.
it's not negotiating that the UK is doing - it's holding its breath until it gets another sweetie.
Why do 27 other countries have to give in, when they have nothing to gain?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:11 AM   #315
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No deal is bad and the EU do not want the UK to get more time to try and negotiate a deal that is better for the UK [...]
Based on the performance of the UK's negotiating team so far, they should be fine with a 21-month extension.

Dave
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:11 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it's not negotiating that the UK is doing - it's holding its breath until it gets another sweetie.
Why do 27 other countries have to give in, when they have nothing to gain?
The UK ruling class is more used to bullying that negotiating to their their way. The UK had already extracted numerous concessions for being in the EU, such as the rebate, not in Schengen, not in the Euro etc etc.

The MPs are now learning the hard way that they cannot bully any more and May's deal is crap because we cannot bully benefits for UK any more.

The rest of the MPs are deluded to think that they can do any better, especially when they cannot agree a consensus.

If we do leave with no deal, we then have to negotiate a new deal (a point missed by many) which we will likely loose as our position is going to be far weaker than the EU's.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:16 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Based on the performance of the UK's negotiating team so far, they should be fine with a 21-month extension.

Dave
The longer the negotiations go on for, the weaker the UK becomes, as the present splits will worsen as the Independent Group grows larger and the Tories and Labour fracture. Pressure will also grow on tired MPs to get on with other business.

The present petition to scrap brexit, which is not being matched by one to keep going and the farce that was Farages march for brexit, shows support for leaving is draining away rapidly.

Cancelling brexit is the lifeboat presently floating past Parliament.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:18 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If the petition gets to 17 million does it cancel Brexit by default?
One of the Tory politicians said yesterday when the signatures were under a million that they would only pay attention to it after there were 17.4m signatures.

Quote:
I always get a bit dismayed by these petitions which seem to be the ultimate in 'doing something without actually doing anything'
The point is to provide a counter-narrative to the "will of the people".
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:20 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This isn't something the elected representatives can simply ignore.
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You can't ignore this and rant about "will of the people".
I bet they can.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 03:20 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Because the Brexit mess is the fault of May, UK parliamentarians and the UK populace.
This. Absolutely this.

ETA and external influences. But all the many errors have been unforced ones.
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