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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:36 AM   #361
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I propose that the proper purpose of impeachment isn't to teach anyone anything.
I am, however, interested in the details of Cabbage's proposal of impeachment to teach people a lesson. I hope he'll tell us more about this.

For example: What's the lesson?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:39 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I always found the pardoning power weird. It's such a throwback to absolute monarchy to grant one person the power of life, liberty and death. A government clemency committee or some such would be a better option.
Yes, it is one area where Bob the Coward has a justified complaint
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:44 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What catastrophe?
It was a hypothetical question, but you are willfully blind if you don't see great potential for catastrophe with this "president".
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:45 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I am, however, interested in the details of Cabbage's proposal of impeachment to teach people a lesson. I hope he'll tell us more about this.

For example: What's the lesson?
How is posing a question a proposal? Asking someone if I understand their proposal in no way implies I am making a proposal.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:49 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And a tweet in reply

"Veuillez nous excuser pour notre crétin orange."
Lots of good responses.

"We are sorry, on so many levels"
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:58 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It was a hypothetical question, but you are willfully blind if you don't see great potential for catastrophe with this "president".
Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:59 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Trump was nominated by Republican voters, not "key Republicans". It doesn't generally work for people to admit mistakes on behalf of others, especially if those others don't think it was a mistake.
To the extent that the votes of rank and file members of either party are unaffected by the statements of party leaders, yes, you've certainly refuted my position.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:06 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
yes, but Trump is less equipped to deal with a crisis than any other president in recent history: a record number of key positions remain unfilled or filled with objectively unqualified people.
There are very few people around him anchored in the normal processes of power.
He has alienated most of the military leadership.
And he is openly hostile to the State Department.


Even if Trump was a policy wiz, under these circumstances he could not properly deal with a significant crisis.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:12 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yes, but Trump is less equipped to deal with a crisis than any other president in recent history: a record number of key positions remain unfilled or filled with objectively unqualified people.
Most positions aren't relevant in a crisis.

Quote:
There are very few people around him anchored in the normal processes of power.
The "normal processes of power" don't have a track record as of late to really recommend them.

Quote:
He has alienated most of the military leadership.
Has he? How do you know?

Quote:
And he is openly hostile to the State Department.
The State Department was a mess before Trump got here. Again, its track record of performance doesn't inspire confidence. Perhaps hostility is warranted.

Quote:
Even if Trump was a policy wiz, under these circumstances he could not properly deal with a significant crisis.
So many of the predictions about Trump have already turned out wrong, why should I believe this one?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:14 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
To the extent that the votes of rank and file members of either party are unaffected by the statements of party leaders, yes, you've certainly refuted my position.
Voters follow leaders who deliver results. Trump has been delivering for Republican voters, certainly better than someone like Romney (who had the establishment's approval) was ever able to do. Why should Republican voters conclude Trump was a mistake?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:19 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Voters follow leaders who deliver results. Trump has been delivering for Republican voters, certainly better than someone like Romney (who had the establishment's approval) was ever able to do. Why should Republican voters conclude Trump was a mistake?
And around we go.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:30 AM   #372
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Zig, in a crisis, even a deeply flawed system is better than none if you need support.
Trump's transition team was already incapable of interfacing with the Departments, and these people are now gone.
No, the Trump administration has less expertise than any in this century.

The only reason why there is no one challenging the US right now is that Trump is so easy to manipulate.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:43 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
And around we go.
It might help if you were to identify some of the Republican party leaders, and cite some of the things they were saying to encourage voters to nominate Trump in 2016.

Then we could look at what those same leaders are saying today, and what they might say to encourage voters to repudiate Trump in 2020.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:47 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Voters follow leaders who deliver results. Trump has been delivering for Republican voters, certainly better than someone like Romney (who had the establishment's approval) was ever able to do. Why should Republican voters conclude Trump was a mistake?
Nonsense. Trump has delivered NO RESULTS that any other Republican couldn't also deliver with a majority Congress. In fact I would argue that Trump has delivered much less.

That is unless you mean Trump has delivered a majority Democratic House of Representatives and endless scandal and corruption.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:52 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Nonsense. Trump has delivered NO RESULTS that any other Republican couldn't also deliver with a majority Congress. In fact I would argue that Trump has delivered much less.
First, that's a hypothetical. Trump DID deliver, whether or not any other candidate would have. Second, if this hypothetical alternative nominee didn't beat Hillary (and it's not obvious an alternative would have), then no, they wouldn't be able to deliver anything. Romney certainly didn't deliver when he was the nominee. Neither did McCain before him.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:12 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, that's a hypothetical. Trump DID deliver, whether or not any other candidate would have. Second, if this hypothetical alternative nominee didn't beat Hillary (and it's not obvious an alternative would have), then no, they wouldn't be able to deliver anything. Romney certainly didn't deliver when he was the nominee. Neither did McCain before him.
Of course it's a hypothetical. But it is a very reasonable hypothetical. Trump has been successful at getting only one major piece of legislation passed which was a budget busting tax cut. And that is it. What a shock. And his being President has resulted in the loss of the House of Representatives despite a favorable economy.

Good job Trump: rolleyes:
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:22 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
9f course it's a hypothetical. But it is a very reasonable hypothetical. Trump has been successful at getting only one major piece of legislation passed which was a budget busting tax cut. And that is it. What a shock. And his being President has resulted in the loss of the House of Representatives despite a favorable economy.

Good job Trump: rolleyes:
He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.

As for the lack of more legislative accomplishments, who should Republican voters blame for that, Trump or Congressional Republicans? It makes more sense to blame the latter, but those are the very people you think should be saying Trump was the mistake.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:22 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
Every President is confronted by the necessity to make difficult decisions that can result in bad outcomes. But every previous President has devoted a large part of his life to public service of one kind or another, and they have demonstrated a basic knowledge of how government works and a basic commitment to core American values, especially including the rule of law. Trump is an unique aberration. He never intended to become President; he himself saw his campaign as a branding exercise for his sleazy business, and his only concern in this world is what's best for D. Trump. Can you imagine any previous President, Democrat or Republican, standing next to the dictator of a foreign adversary and announcing that he believes his protestations of innocence over his own officials and intelligence services? How can anyone who calls himself a conservative live with himself?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.
....
There are plenty of responsible people who think that the Iran deal was good for the U.S. and the world, and scrapping it makes it easier for Iran to build nuclear weapons. Energy production is a result of market forces; if the President had a magic wand, there would never have been gasoline shortages or oil price shocks. What specific regulations do you claim were/are so onerous? The economy has been doing consistently well since Obama saved the world from catastrophe in 2009; Trump doesn't have a magic wand there either, although his bizarre tariff antics could cause tremendous damage.

And his personal corruption and ignorance are a unique danger to all of us.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:35 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.

As for the lack of more legislative accomplishments, who should Republican voters blame for that, Trump or Congressional Republicans? It makes more sense to blame the latter, but those are the very people you think should be saying Trump was the mistake.
EVERY PRESIDENT gets his judges if he has a majority in the Senate. Are you saying Trump has anything to do with that?

And they should blame Trump. The man is a lazy idiot. His administration is a bunch of incompetent sycophants. They don't understand the law. They don't propose well thought out legislation. They think they simply can bully and demand and get their way. Trump said he was going to be the infrastructure president. What a joke. He hasn't proposed a damn infrastructure initiative that EITHER party could or would get behind.

All Trump has actually accomplished is hand the super rich a huge amount of money. Well done turd!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:36 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He's got two conservative SC judges appointed, quite possibly a third this term. He's got a ton of appellate court judges appointed. He scrapped the horrible Iran deal. He's increased energy production, and cut regulations. And as you said, the economy is doing well. There's a lot more for conservatives to like than just the tax cut.

As for the lack of more legislative accomplishments, who should Republican voters blame for that, Trump or Congressional Republicans? It makes more sense to blame the latter, but those are the very people you think should be saying Trump was the mistake.
If you praise Trump for getting SC judges appointed, you have to blame him for not getting his party to pass necessary laws: both require congressional approval.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:40 AM   #382
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https://twitter.com/jaketapper/statu...26851854053378

Quote:
Trump sues to block House Democrats from obtaining his financial records - CNNPolitics
Article embedded in tweet.

Darn audits, eh?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:42 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There are plenty of responsible people who think that the Iran deal was good for the U.S. and the world, and scrapping it makes it easier for Iran to build nuclear weapons.
And plenty of people who don't. Guess which way Republican voters break on the issue?

Quote:
Energy production is a result of market forces;
It's also a result of federal rules about the use of federal lands.

Quote:
What specific regulations do you claim were/are so onerous?
It's generally not any one regulation which is so onerous, but the vast number of them combined.

Quote:
The economy has been doing consistently well since Obama saved the world from catastrophe in 2009; Trump doesn't have a magic wand there either
Trump doesn't have a magic wand... but Obama does?

And the reasons why the economy are good don't really matter here. It's good. Whoever is president always benefits from that. Regardless of what might have been with a different candidate, that's how things are with this candidate. Why would Republican voters regret their choice?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:46 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
EVERY PRESIDENT gets his judges if he has a majority in the Senate. Are you saying Trump has anything to do with that?
He has everything to do with who "his judges" are.

Quote:
And they should blame Trump. The man is a lazy idiot.
This sounds an awful lot like sour grapes.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:03 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He has everything to do with who "his judges" are.
Really? That's not what I've read. Pretty much all of them have been taken from the Federalist List and Pence has been running that.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This sounds an awful lot like sour grapes.
No it sounds like half of Trump's staff including his Secretary of State.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:07 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/jaketapper/statu...26851854053378



Article embedded in tweet.

Darn audits, eh?
I've never seen anyone with supposedly nothing to hide fight so hard to hide something. He is scared to death about something in those taxes coming to light.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:07 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? That's not what I've read. Pretty much all of them have been taken from the Federalist List and Pence has been running that.
Indeed, it's been noted that the nominating-train is one of the few aspects of Trump's presidency that has been going smoothly, precisely because Trump has largely kept his hands off and out of it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:12 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Every president is a potential catastrophe. It's inherent in any position with that much power.
The point, which you evidently insist on missing, is that the probability of potential catastrophe is not uniformly the same for all presidents.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:12 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
...The economy has been doing consistently well since Obama saved the world from catastrophe in 2009; Trump doesn't have a magic wand there either, although his bizarre tariff antics could cause tremendous damage...
Been there, done that. Previously, at least three times, charts have been posted as attachments that demonstrate clearly, whether it's economic growth or unemployment, the trends have continued under Trump at the same rate they'd been growing/improving for several years. The appearance of the charts usually silences the claims of Trump's great economic performance until a few months go by, and then we have the same discussion all over again.

Is it noteworthy that Trump has exaggerated/lied about his numbers? His defenders won't discuss that. I agree with posters, here and on other forums, who have concluded that people who have a surprisingly positive reaction to Donald Trump do so because of personal reasons that they will not divulge. Discussing Trump with his hardcore supporters becomes pointless. In my opinion, the worst are the ones who claim, "Oh I detest Donald Trump," but won't say exactly why but will then cite chapter and verse as to Bill/Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's shortcomings.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:14 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Most positions aren't relevant in a crisis.

Given a catastrophe, obviously we're worried about the positions that ARE relevant, so I fail to understand your "point". Are you just playing dumb to be contrary?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:20 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? That's not what I've read. Pretty much all of them have been taken from the Federalist List and Pence has been running that.
And who decided to take them from that list?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:21 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
The point, which you evidently insist on missing, is that the probability of potential catastrophe is not uniformly the same for all presidents.
Do you have anything other than your opinion to show that it's higher for Trump?

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Given a catastrophe, obviously we're worried about the positions that ARE relevant, so I fail to understand your "point". Are you just playing dumb to be contrary?
So which positions are relevant, and what fraction of those have been unfilled?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:24 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post



Trump doesn't have a magic wand... but Obama does?
I don't see anywhere a statement that Obama has a magic wand. He had policies that pulled us out of the recession. Trump, being a lazy son of a bitch, wishes he had a magic wand to solve everything and is not really qualified on any other level

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And the reasons why the economy are good don't really matter here. It's good. Whoever is president always benefits from that. Regardless of what might have been with a different candidate, that's how things are with this candidate. Why would Republican voters regret their choice?
Really? What benefit did Trump receive from the economy regarding the 2018 election?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:28 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/jaketapper/statu...26851854053378



Article embedded in tweet.

Darn audits, eh?
This isn't about taxes. It's about financial records held by his accountants regarding loans and other issues.

It is a different matter than the request for tax records.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:29 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you have anything other than your opinion to show that it's higher for Trump?
Sure. The testimony of his own administration.

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So which positions are relevant, and what fraction of those have been unfilled?
You should be able to figure it out on your own, but since you evidently can't: It depends on the catastrophe.

I bet that just blew your mind, didn't it?

For a specific example from the past, how about GWB's FEMA response to Katrina.

Again, are you playing dumb just to be contrary? It honestly seems that way. I truly believe if you applied yourself at all you could have up with the same answers you had to ask me for.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:45 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
For a specific example from the past, how about GWB's FEMA response to Katrina.
So when you look for a failed response to a hurricane, instead of pointing to Trump, you point to GWB. And that's supposed to demonstrate that Trump is uniquely unprepared for catastrophes?

Do you not understand what you just did there?

Quote:
Again, are you playing dumb just to be contrary?
You're asking if *I* am playing dumb, after you just scored a goal against yourself?

Oh, of course: you aren't playing.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:47 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I don't see anywhere a statement that Obama has a magic wand.
He "saved the world" without one? He truly is the light bringer.

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Really? What benefit did Trump receive from the economy regarding the 2018 election?
Trump wasn't running for election in 2018. Didn't you know that?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:02 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So when you look for a failed response to a hurricane, instead of pointing to Trump, you point to GWB. And that's supposed to demonstrate that Trump is uniquely unprepared for catastrophes?

Do you not understand what you just did there?
No, you're the one failing to understand: You asked which positions are relevant for a catastrophe and I said it depends. Then I mentioned Katrina, which is merely and example of how FEMA would be the position in question for this specific catastrophe. This specific example of "Which Positions for Which Catastrophe" merely happened to occur under GWB's watch and was never intended as a comment on Trump's competency, since that wasn't addressed in the question you asked.



Quote:
You're asking if *I* am playing dumb, after you just scored a goal against yourself?

Oh, of course: you aren't playing.
No, unlike you I was paying attention to the question I was answering: Which positions are relevant in a catastrophe? That specific question was not addressing Trump's competency in any way, and my response neither included nor implied anything about Trump's competency, which was your misunderstanding.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:06 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He "saved the world" without one? He truly is the light bringer.
Can you quote my post and please hilite where I specifically said he "saved the world"? I don't recall using that language; why the quotes?

Quote:
Trump wasn't running for election in 2018. Didn't you know that?
Mid term elections are generally thought to be a referendum on the current president. Is this news to you? Again, I refer to the question I asked: What benefit did Trump receive from the 2018 election? I do not consider your party losing the house as a benefit. Nowhere did I imply Trump ran in 2018, but he certainly can receive advantages and/or benefits from the midterm election.

Didn't you know that?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:10 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Can you quote my post and please hilite where I specifically said he "saved the world"? I don't recall using that language; why the quotes?
It wasn't you, it was Bob001, but you jumped into that conversation, so what he said is still relevant.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The economy has been doing consistently well since Obama saved the world from catastrophe in 2009
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