Gingervytes
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2019
- Messages
- 286
They ASSUMED incorrectly (on purpose), that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Escaping gas needs something to push off of
Mathematical proof that the thrust equation is false
View attachment 39978
Why do you write the "NASA" rocket equation? You do realize that NASA didn't invent rocketry in a vacuum?
Well it's not that the rockets push against something, it's that the equal reaction pushes the rocket forward as it throws stuff backward.
ETA: Or, in other words, the rocket pushes against the stuff that it shoots out its back.
The equation describes momentum thrust and pressure thrust. For something like the Apollo lunar module DPS, pressure thrust accounts for about 40 percent of the overall thrust. This "proof" conflates the concepts of propellant mass flow rate, which is needed to understand how much momentum is in the exhaust, and the exhaust flow rate. It ignores the most exciting part about rocket engines, which is the massive acceleration imparted to the working fluid by the release of stored chemical energy as heat. The de Laval nozzle converts the results of that energy to velocity, which is where Ve comes from.
This states that mass flow rate exiting a pipe is force.
Velocity is no longer needed to calculate force.
Obviously flow rate by itself is not force.
Why do you write the "NASA" rocket equation? You do realize that NASA didn't invent rocketry in a vacuum?
Is he/she saying that you might as well pour the rocket fuel directly out of the exhaust pipes without igniting it to create thrust because the mass is all that matters???
Lets see, maybe a Russian named Tsiolkovsky in 1903?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation
That was my first thought too, but nothing in the picture looked anything like Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation.
They ASSUMED incorrectly (on purpose), that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Escaping gas needs something to push off of
Mathematical proof that the thrust equation is false
View attachment 39978
I really wanted to fully understand that, but some of it went right over my head.
Science is hard, but you don't see me making stuff up to compensate, like some other people.![]()
It's relatively easy to break down.
Rocket thrust in a vacuum comes from two sources: the momentum of the exhaust and the static pressure of the exhaust. The first term in the equation looks at momentum, which has been written extensively about since Newton first discovered it. The momentum of the exhaust leaving in one direction matches the momentum of the rocket moving in the opposite direction, per Newton's third law of motion. The mass part of the momentum formula is the mass of the propellants, here described as the mass applied per unit time, because the exhaust leaves the system and must be replaced over time by new propellant.
The key here is that the mass enters the thrust chamber as a liquid -- often a dense cryogenic liquid. But it leaves the engine as a gas of much greater volume and much less density than before. To be sure, the mass flow rate into the thrust chamber is the same as the mass flow rate out of the thrust chamber, but the exhaust mass is in a different form that must move much faster in order to sustain that flow rate.
The propellant is first converted to gas in the top of the thrust chamber. It's sprayed together in such a way that it mixes thoroughly, and then the radiant heat from the reaction downstream vaporizes it. Those thoroughly mixed gases are then ignited, creating vast amounts of thermal energy in the working fluid. Every gas responds to an increase in thermal energy by trying to increase its volume and/or pressure. The urge to do so in a rocket engine is extremely powerful. A wonderful Victorian-era gadget called a de Laval nozzle -- a convergent-divergent nozzle -- lets the gas escape from the only remaining hole in the thrust chamber in a way that collimates the flow. All the gas molecules are going in the same direction, maximizing the momentum. Otherwise, pressurized gas escaping from a plain hole in a pressure vessel will expand in a cone-shaped pattern.
The conversion of chemical energy thermodynamically to gas pressure, and from there to gas velocity, is what the poster's proof is missing.
That's a more nuts-and-bolts explanation of where the momentum thrust comes from. Pressure thrust comes from the static pressure of the exhaust gas. The gas streaming in linear fashion out of the de Laval nozzle has momentum. But it's still a gas with measurable static pressure. It doesn't have zero density. As such, it pushes against the walls of the nozzle just like the contained air in a balloon pushes against the balloon walls, even though the balloon air isn't hot and isn't moving. It's ordinary gas pressure. The term for this effect is "adiabatic," and it's the same principle by which steam locomotives conserved water by opening the steam valve only a little bit at the beginning of the power stroke.
If the static pressure of the exhaust is greater than the ambient into which it is exhausted, it will continue to expand in static fashion irrespective of its velocity. That urge to expand into a relatively unpressurized space is the ability to do what engineers call "pressure and volume work," in this case, to continue pushing in all directions. "All directions" in this case includes the direction of the rocket nozzle, which results in thrust. That's the second term of the equation -- the static pressure of the exhaust per unit area, minus the static pressure of the ambient (i.e., the pressure difference) times the area of the exit plane of the nozzle -- sort of like the area of the piston face in a steam cylinder.
Ironically, the poster here thinks he has cleverly discarded momentum thrust. But he hasn't dealt with the notion that in a vacuum, the ambient pressure is zero so the pressure component of the rocket equation actually contributes more. The notion of "having something to push against" is actually the opposite of what makes rockets more efficient as they climb.
Jay, let me be the first to say: please never, ever die. You are a fountain of knowledge.
It's just too bad that the OP will ignore you.
They ASSUMED incorrectly (on purpose), that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Escaping gas needs something to push off of
Mathematical proof that the thrust equation is false
View attachment 39978
They ASSUMED incorrectly (on purpose), that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Escaping gas needs something to push off of
Mathematical proof that the thrust equation is false
View attachment 39978
The rocket doesn’t push the gas out. The gas moves out due to pressure gradient force. That’s the false ASSUMPTION made. No one here can demonstrate that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.
The rocket doesn’t push the gas out. The gas moves out due to pressure gradient force. That’s the false ASSUMPTION made.
No one here can demonstrate that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.
Hi, Gingervytes. Welcome to the forum.
Thank you for your clearly-written work. Jay has already addressed the errors in it, but the larger issue is that rockets are observed to work in a vacuum - we operate them all the time. That should have tipped you off that your work was incorrect.
[R]ockets are observed to work in a vacuum - we operate them all the time.
That should have tipped you off that your work was incorrect.
No, it is not assumed -- it is observed and measured. The de Laval nozzle dates back to Victorian times, used in steam turbine engines. The pressure "gradient" is converted to velocity, which is expressed in your equation as Ve.
I already pointed out that your derivation of the "pressure gradient force" was in error because you wrongly conflated two concepts in the derivation of the rocket equation. You did not address that. Before you claim that no one has refuted you, you must address the posts in which they do just that.
Jay, let me be the first to say: please never, ever die. You are a fountain of knowledge.
It's just too bad that the OP will ignore you.
How is it observed?
Why is there no unedited video of a rocket in space?
When wind blows on the back of your head, why don’t you feel the air in front of you push off your face as it moves away from you?
The velocity of gas exiting a de Laval nozzle for a given pressure is observed many times in the laboratory. The de Laval nozzle is not used only in rocketry.
Assumes facts not in evidence. It is also unclear what evidence you think would be supplied by "video of rocket in space," edited or not. You need to supply a line of reasoning here.
That has nothing to do with how rockets work and nothing to do with fluid dynamics in general. Your expectations are misinformed.
On a more specific note, I’ve personally commanded a spacecraft to “fire” its thruster...
It worked just fine, as we observed the results directly - including tracking the vehicle with our own (not just NASA’s) S-band antenna.
So, yes, I have direct personal experience that rockets work in a vacuum.
So you are saying that rockets don’t work due to pressure build up in the rocket chamber and the eventual release of pressure to low pressure?
...Assumes facts not in evidence. It is also unclear what evidence you think would be supplied by "video of rocket in space," edited or not. You need to supply a line of reasoning here...
Indeed, why would video be the observational standard of evidence that rockets work in space? That makes little sense to me, but then again I work in this field.
Indeed, why would video be the observational standard of evidence that rockets work in space? That makes little sense to me, but then again I work in this field.
People need to realize that gas expands freely into a vacuum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss