ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

Reply
Old 21st April 2019, 07:49 PM   #161
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,301
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder how many of those whining about this FB decision think SNL should be censored.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 07:52 PM   #162
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,687
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I thought I answered it. Yes.

Will no one free me of this meddlesome priest? Where is the violence in "free me"? That was my point, links are not necessarily direct.

Maybe you don't like FB deciding because you like the ideology and don't believe you are promoting violence. Where are you recommending the line be drawn?
If I owned Facebook, I'd draw the line at actual, literal threats or incitement to violence.

Not figurative stuff like "We're going to murder you out on the football pitch next week"

I wouldn't worry about this open to interpretation stuff, like microaggressions ( or meddlesome priests ) and leave that to the aggrieved parties to work out like adults.

If Facebook is going to be favouring certain ideologies, then they might consider getting out of the political speech business altogether and limiting themselves to lighter fare, like cat videos and pictures of your breakfast.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 07:55 PM   #163
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,687
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder how many of those whining about this FB decision think SNL should be censored.
Why would anyone thing SNL should be censored ? Isn't it something someone can simply not watch if they don't like it ?
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 07:58 PM   #164
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,301
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
If I owned Facebook, I'd draw the line at actual, literal threats or incitement to violence.

Not figurative stuff like "We're going to murder you out on the football pitch next week"

I wouldn't worry about this open to interpretation stuff, like microaggressions ( or meddlesome priests ) and leave that to the aggrieved parties to work out like adults.

If Facebook is going to be favouring certain ideologies, then they might consider getting out of the political speech business altogether and limiting themselves to lighter fare, like cat videos and pictures of your breakfast.
I believe they've been doing that and we still have issues so they've taken another step. There comes a point where you have to take a problem more seriously and some of Trump's hate groups are beyond that point.

It does not mean FB is banning or favoring ideologies.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 08:36 PM   #165
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,687
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I believe they've been doing that and we still have issues so they've taken another step. There comes a point where you have to take a problem more seriously and some of Trump's hate groups are beyond that point.

It does not mean FB is banning or favoring ideologies.
This isn't about Trump's groups though, this is about the UK. Several political parties have been banned as well as any content supporting those parties, so yes, it's pretty much favouring ideologies,

It's their content promoting anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant rhetoric that got them the boot.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 09:08 PM   #166
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,542
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder how many of those whining about this FB decision think SNL should be censored.
Probably close to zero.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 09:37 PM   #167
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,321
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Darat claims you can’t separate Nazism from violence. Why is communism any different?
You do understand that ordinary Socialist Communism and Fascist Nazism are not left v right equivalences of scale. Nazism is much, much further right on the political scale than communism is on the left.....

Nazism is extreme, radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism. It is characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society.

Socialist Communism is not the equivalent extreme left wing ideology. If you are looking for a Nazi equivalent on the left (a violent form of communism) you're talking about Stalinism.


__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 10:27 PM   #168
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then your response to my post was pointless.
No it wasn't,.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 10:40 PM   #169
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,301
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
This isn't about Trump's groups though, this is about the UK. Several political parties have been banned as well as any content supporting those parties, so yes, it's pretty much favouring ideologies,

It's their content promoting anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant rhetoric that got them the boot.
It's my understanding the hard right turn complete with racism and bigotry is flaring in more countries than just Trump-land.

From my POV, anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant rhetoric is a huge red flag. I think FB is justified and I don't think it amounts to the thought police or a slippery slope.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2019, 10:59 PM   #170
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,262
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Saying one is a Nazi or one supports Nazism is to advocate for violence.
And the gradient of the slope just got steeper.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:04 AM   #171
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,058
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You do understand that ordinary Socialist Communism and Fascist Nazism are not left v right equivalences of scale. Nazism is much, much further right on the political scale than communism is on the left.....

Nazism is extreme, radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism. It is characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society.

Socialist Communism is not the equivalent extreme left wing ideology. If you are looking for a Nazi equivalent on the left (a violent form of communism) you're talking about Stalinism.


There are no peaceful forms of communism. You're kidding yourself.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:35 AM   #172
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And the gradient of the slope just got steeper.
You may want to research Nazism.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:50 AM   #173
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,687
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's my understanding the hard right turn complete with racism and bigotry is flaring in more countries than just Trump-land.

From my POV, anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant rhetoric is a huge red flag. I think FB is justified and I don't think it amounts to the thought police or a slippery slope.
Might this forum benefit from following Facebook's lead and prohibiting such sentiments ? This whole skeptic thing appears to have run it's course and there's really no benefit to allowing that kind of thinking on this forum.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:52 AM   #174
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,687
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are no peaceful forms of communism. You're kidding yourself.
On the upside, you can use that handy little graph to demonstrate that The Khymer Rouge, Chairman Mao and North Korea aren't so bad after all when you compare them to white people political structures.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 02:14 AM   #175
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are no peaceful forms of communism. You're kidding yourself.

You're right. Even when they pretend to be, they're secretly waging war on innocent U.S. American diplomats' ears and brains, violating not just international law but even the laws of physics!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:16 AM   #176
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,262
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You may want to research Nazism.
There is no need. The evils or otherwise of Nazism is not the issue here.

The point is that there is no room for predigested thinking such as yours in a critical thinking forum. Merely being a Nazi sympathizer or supporter should not be sufficient grounds for criminalization of individuals. Guilt by association is the hallmark of totalitarianism.

Every individual needs to be judged by their actions or words. Declaring an intention to harm individuals or inciting harm to individuals merely on the basis of their race or creed needs to be condemned everywhere. And that is what you are guilty of.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:36 AM   #177
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no need. The evils or otherwise of Nazism is not the issue here.

The point is that there is no room for predigested thinking such as yours in a critical thinking forum. Merely being a Nazi sympathizer or supporter should not be sufficient grounds for criminalization of individuals. Guilt by association is the hallmark of totalitarianism.

Every individual needs to be judged by their actions or words. Declaring an intention to harm individuals or inciting harm to individuals merely on the basis of their race or creed needs to be condemned everywhere. And that is what you are guilty of.
Ah I see your several mistakes.

1) My views on Nazism were not "predigested" they follow from doing research and following the evidence.
2) I indeed do judge people on their actions or words, which is why when someone says they are a Nazi or support Nazism I know what they are refering to.
3) You don't judge people on their actions or words
4) You don't seem to have knowledge of what Nazism is - a good starting point would be the Wikipedia page and start to follow the many references.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:07 AM   #178
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,560
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The point is that there is no room for predigested thinking such as yours in a critical thinking forum. Merely being a Nazi sympathizer or supporter should not be sufficient grounds for criminalization of individuals. Guilt by association is the hallmark of totalitarianism.

Only a few contries, e.g. Germany (Vox), have criminalized Nazis or their sympathizers. They usually criminalize specific parts of Nazi ideology, e.g. Holocaust denial (Wikipedia).

Quote:
Every individual needs to be judged by their actions or words. Declaring an intention to harm individuals or inciting harm to individuals merely on the basis of their race or creed needs to be condemned everywhere. And that is what you are guilty of.

Declaring that you are a Nazi is a declaration of your intention* to harm, e.g. Jews and/or black and brown-skinned people (and it its current form: Muslims). I haven't heard of a Nazi splitter group intent on doing whatever it can to help and support (or just leave alone) blacks and Jews.

* Or you may just be utterly ignorant of what being a Nazi is all about. In that case, you should be institutionalized for your own protection.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:27 AM   #179
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,262
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
1) My views on Nazism were not "predigested" they follow from doing research and following the evidence.
That statement alone shows that everything I posted went straight over your head. That is not unusual when somebody is a slave to blind prejudice.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
2) I am psychic.
3) I am psychic.
4) I am psychic.
ftfy.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:40 AM   #180
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,560
What is Nazism? Do we have any historical examples of what it leads to?

"Slave to blind prejudice"! Top notch Nazi apologia.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by uke2se; 22nd April 2019 at 04:41 AM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:41 AM   #181
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 11,321
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are no peaceful forms of communism. You're kidding yourself.
Nope, I've seen it for myself - Vietnam is pretty peaceful these days

- its a one-party state (that party is the Communist Party of Vietnam)
- there are Communist slogans on every street, every road and on many buildings
- there is a cult-like following for former leader, President Ho Chi Minh
- there are busts and portraits of Ho Chi Minh in every school and public building.
__________________
#THEYAREUS
The Mueller Report must be released to Congress in full - If Trump has nothing to hide, then he should also have nothing to fear!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 05:48 AM   #182
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,956
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Probably close to zero.
It's at least one, a guy named Trump tweets about it.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:41 AM   #183
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That statement alone shows that everything I posted went straight over your head. That is not unusual when somebody is a slave to blind prejudice.

ftfy.
It is quite apparent that you not only don't judge people by what they do and what they say you do not even listen to what they say. Since you are not open to facts and evidence it is rather pointless to continue our discussion.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:44 AM   #184
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,812
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are no peaceful forms of communism.
There is nothing inherently violent about communism.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:54 AM   #185
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,212
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, against the authorities, not against a privately owned newspaper or the social media:




I don't remember the alt-right standing up for the left, but maybe I just didn't notice.
Nope, they did not. But then they are tools and fools with no self volition.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:54 AM   #186
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope, I've seen it for myself - Vietnam is pretty peaceful these days



- its a one-party state (that party is the Communist Party of Vietnam)

- there are Communist slogans on every street, every road and on many buildings

- there is a cult-like following for former leader, President Ho Chi Minh

- there are busts and portraits of Ho Chi Minh in every school and public building.
Nazism is a form of right wing ideology but it would be wrong to say all right wing ideologies are Nazism, just as it would be wrong to say all communist ideologies are (for example) Stalinist. I would say someone who claims to be a Stalinist or supports Stalinism is of course someone who is for killing fellow citizens just like someone who claims to be a Nazi does, and I have no issue with them not being allowed to advocate the killing of their fellow citizens.

Pesonally I am not bothered if someone claims their ideology is left or right, it is the ideology itself that people claim to be or follow that I judge. And I am very happy judging those who say they support an ideology that has an element which calls for the mass killing of me and many other of our fellow citizens as a terrible, evil ideology. And as a result of my judgement I am quite happy not to allow them the right of freedom of speech to promote such ideas.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:56 AM   #187
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
There is nothing inherently violent about communism.
I am curious if some will try to claim there is nothing inherently violent about Nazism.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:00 AM   #188
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,058
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
There is nothing inherently violent about communism.
And yet, it is always and only implemented with violence. Must just be bad luck. Oh! Or it's not "true communism", how about that one? That was "stalinism" instead of "communism" (and Germany was under "hitlerism" not "nazism").

I don't think I can enough.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:01 AM   #189
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,058
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope, I've seen it for myself - Vietnam is pretty peaceful these days

- its a one-party state (that party is the Communist Party of Vietnam)
- there are Communist slogans on every street, every road and on many buildings
- there is a cult-like following for former leader, President Ho Chi Minh
- there are busts and portraits of Ho Chi Minh in every school and public building.
Funny how peaceful things can be after you kill all your enemies.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:03 AM   #190
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,812
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And yet, it is always and only implemented with violence. Must just be bad luck. Oh! Or it's not "true communism", how about that one? That was "stalinism" instead of "communism" (and Germany was under "hitlerism" not "nazism").

I don't think I can enough.
Keep rolling your eyes, then. I'm not wrong.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:10 AM   #191
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,902
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope, I've seen it for myself - Vietnam is pretty peaceful these days

- its a one-party state (that party is the Communist Party of Vietnam)
- there are Communist slogans on every street, every road and on many buildings
- there is a cult-like following for former leader, President Ho Chi Minh
- there are busts and portraits of Ho Chi Minh in every school and public building.
Replace "Vietnam" with "America", and "Ho Chi Minh" with "Donald Trump", and you have a pretty good recipe for peace and harmony in the US. After the bloody civil war and the political purges, of course. But hey, Vietnam is pretty peaceful these days, so we know the method works.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:19 AM   #192
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Does anyone think that Nazism is not inherently violent and it doesn't call for the killing of vast numbers of us (us meaning fellow citizens)?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 09:28 AM   #193
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,546
This may explain some of the discussion here:

Quote:
A substantial number of the survey’s respondents were unaware of basic facts about the Holocaust. Forty-one percent did not know what Auschwitz was. Nearly one-third of respondents (31 percent) believed that less than 2 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust; the actual number is closer to 6 million. Only 37 percent of people were able to identify Poland as a country where the Holocaust occurred, even though at least 3 million Jewish citizens of Poland were murdered during WWII.
Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ory-180968783/

Knowledge about communism is probably even scarcer.
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 09:50 AM   #194
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 12,177
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does anyone think that Nazism is not inherently violent and it doesn't call for the killing of vast numbers of us (us meaning fellow citizens)?
I think Zig is correct that both Nazism and Communism are inherently violent.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 09:57 AM   #195
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,262
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is quite apparent that you not only don't judge people by what they do and what they say you do not even listen to what they say. Since you are not open to facts and evidence it is rather pointless to continue our discussion.
Well that's the pot calling the kettle black. I say that the evils of Nazism are beside the point and your response is that Nazism is evil. The rest of you imaginary response is equally that of somebody who is so full of their own soapbox that they have not read a word that I have posted.

Maybe you should act on Stout's suggestion and ban Nazi sympathizers from this forum. After all, why expose extremist views to the rigours of critical thinking when you can just rush straight to judgement?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:03 AM   #196
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,058
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Pesonally I am not bothered if someone claims their ideology is left or right, it is the ideology itself that people claim to be or follow that I judge. And I am very happy judging those who say they support an ideology that has an element which calls for the mass killing of me and many other of our fellow citizens as a terrible, evil ideology. And as a result of my judgement I am quite happy not to allow them the right of freedom of speech to promote such ideas.
Does this mean you're in favor of banning Che Guevara shirts?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:05 AM   #197
GnaGnaMan
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,546
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And yet, it is always and only implemented with violence. Must just be bad luck. Oh! Or it's not "true communism", how about that one? That was "stalinism" instead of "communism" (and Germany was under "hitlerism" not "nazism").
Hitlerism and Nazism are the same.
Nazism was specifically implemented in Germany between 1933 and 1945. Racism and genocide are necessary parts of nazism. It is also very warlike.

Communism, meanwhile, was tried in a number of countries at various times. Communism refers to a much greater variety of ideologies. Most of them were not particularly muderous.

Some communist regimes killed millions in pursuit of their ideology. For example, the cambodian, 'red Khmer' murdered about 25% of the countries population largely out of hatred for urban, liberal elites. The terror of the red Khmer was ended by an invasion by communist Vietnam.

The main thing that makes nazism seem especially horrible is that people were killed for things beyong their control. If you were descended from jews, they want to murder you and there is nothing you can do about it.
Even the most murderous communist regimes would try to kill you for things you might be able to control and allowed for redemption (at least officially).

Most of the death toll attributed to communism is due to famine. Famines were caused by ideologically driven mismanagement.

But mostly, the communist countries were just dictatorships. Like other dictatorships, or monarchies, they cracked down hard on dissidents but did not get millions killed.
__________________
It makes no difference whatever whether they laugh at us or revile us, whether they represent us as clowns or criminals; the main thing is that they mention us, that they concern themselves with us again and again. -Hitler
GnaGnaMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:06 AM   #198
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,444
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Does this mean you're in favor of banning Che Guevara shirts?
I'm in favor of people being able to tell people in Che Guevara shirts they don't get to use their soapbox.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:06 AM   #199
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think Zig is correct that both Nazism and Communism are inherently violent.
What definition are you using for communism?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:07 AM   #200
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 85,671
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Does this mean you're in favor of banning Che Guevara shirts?
??
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.