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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:54 AM   #1
dasmiller
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Mueller Investigation pt 6

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I hope we will have at least wised up to the dark side of social media. Actually, all media, MSM included.
Yes, and it seems to me that we're seeing a particularly toxic combination of social media and large strongly-partisan news sources. Calm, balanced reporting rarely seems to be linked in my Facebook feed, but I have friends who regularly link outraged articles from The Blaze or the Palmer Report (etc, etc), and other friends who then assume that the articles are credible.

Facebook friend circles often seem to evolve into little echo chambers, each seeing mostly outrageous stories about the other side and cutting themselves off from dissenting or even moderate views.

Now I've made myself sad.

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Posted By:kmortis
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:58 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obviously. Which is why impeaching Trump won't teach people what you want them to learn.


Do you propose not impeaching a corrupt president in order to maximize the catastrophe so that people will learn better?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:03 AM   #3
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The Russian Embassy in Washington has released its own report about Russiagate last Thursday. It's here:

The Russiagate Hysteria: A Case of Severe Russophobia (121 pages PDF, 2.3Mb)

From the Conclusion:

Originally Posted by Russian Embassy in Washington
[...] All this time Russia pointed to the obvious made-up nature of these insinuations. Fruitlessly we asked first the Obama Administration and then the current authorities in Washington for conclusive proof. In order to alleviate the suspicions we proposed exchanging mutual written commitments not to interfere in the domestic affairs of each other. Suggested reestablishing the bilateral expert group on information security that the Obama Administration derailed, which could have served as an optimal platform for the de-politicized dialogue on these matters. The American side was also invited to attend the proposed questioning of Russian citizens accused by Mueller, and to publicize the exchange between the two countries following the U.S. accusations of cyberattacks which was conducted through existing channels in the “hot period” between October 2016 to January 2017.
The U.S. refused every single time.
We understand that certain political circles in Washington have invested too much in the spreading of conspiracy theories about Russia and Donald Trump to admit they are groundless. Nevertheless, we hope that the end of the Mueller saga would contribute to further dispelling the smoke and mirrors on this topic. The first step – the disavowal of the “collusion theory” – was taken. But if all of the categorical allegations heard all this time turned out to be patently false, why not make the next logical move and fact-check the “Russian meddling” narrative? As demonstrated in this report, an objective analysis of the claims and the timeline of events invariably leads to the conclusion - it was just fake news.
Our hope is that this realization would not only contribute to the normalization of the Russian-American relations, but to the healing of the political discourse in the U.S. as well. [...]
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:44 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Yes, and it seems to me that we're seeing a particularly toxic combination of social media and large strongly-partisan news sources. Calm, balanced reporting rarely seems to be linked in my Facebook feed, but I have friends who regularly link outraged articles from The Blaze or the Palmer Report (etc, etc), and other friends who then assume that the articles are credible.

Facebook friend circles often seem to evolve into little echo chambers, each seeing mostly outrageous stories about the other side and cutting themselves off from dissenting or even moderate views.

Now I've made myself sad.

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Posted By:kmortis
It's new technology. Humans have been around for 100 000-200 000 years, the Internet only for a couple decades. Blogs, Twitter, and Facebook are even newer than that. I hope and believe people with catch up, so to speak. But yes, we badly need to teach kids solid critical thinking.

Also, of course, I agree the social media environment is toxic. Twitter is particularly awful. I only lasted there for a few months before I grew tired of how it's a place where people go to sit in their echo chambers to reinforce their views, and to get furious with people who give the slightest impression of disagreement.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:14 AM   #5
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I think this bears repeating from a post I made in the previous part (link doesn't work).
Quote:
Posters defending Trump...won't discuss the issues that lead so many people to regard him with disgust and contempt. Was the Trump campaign right to have accepted help from the Russian government, from someone like Vladimir Putin? Was it acceptable that the Trump campaign didn't inform American intelligence about the contacts? Other Western countries were picking up on this -- that the Russians were attempting to interfere in the American election and had been in contact with the Trump campaign -- and were forwarding the information to the U.S. The Trump defenders not only won't discuss these documented facts, they try and derail the discussion of them.
Great importance is attached to a statement by the Russian Embassy in Washington calling Russian activity in the 2016 election "made up" and "fake news." (You could actually label this a Russian attack on the integrity of the United States.) I never thought I would live to see the day when American conservatives (or at least Americans who call themselves conservatives) would side with a foreign government, especially one run by a vicious thug like Vladimir Putin, against their own government. American conservatives are well-known as people who hate government in general and the U.S. government in particular but this is off-the-charts.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:05 PM   #6
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So, how 'bout that Mueller investigation?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:08 PM   #7
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Trump Tweets

Only high crimes and misdemeanors can lead to impeachment. There were no crimes by me (No Collusion, No Obstruction), so you canít impeach. It was the Democrats that committed the crimes, not your Republican President! Tables are finally turning on the Witch Hunt!

The Obama Administration did not do itself proud in this

Isnít it amazing that the people who were closest to me, by far, and knew the Campaign better than anyone, were never even called to testify before Mueller. The reason is that the 18 Angry Democrats knew they would all say ĎNO COLLUSIONí and only very good things!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:09 PM   #8
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Apart from Michael Cohen, Paul Manafort, Hope Hicks, Don McGahn ...
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:10 PM   #9
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Trump Tweeted

“A very exculpatory section of the Mueller Report: NO CONSPIRACY, COORDINATION or COLLUSION with the Trump Campaign and the Russians. You can’t be more clear than that!” @GreggJarrett
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:05 PM   #10
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Trump Tweets

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!

This should NEVER happen to another President AGAIN!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!

This should NEVER happen to another President AGAIN!
I know in his rallies he repeats himself over and over. And he repeats no collusion no obstruction over and over. Even so, his Tweets have sounded like broken records for days on end. Either he has revenge boiling over in ecstasy, or he knows inside that the Mueller report is damaging as hell.

I suspect it's the latter.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:43 PM   #12
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It appears Trump's approval ratings are once again in the tank after the release of the Mueller report, according to Politico, dropping below the 40 mark.

But support to impeach him has also dropped from earlier this year.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:45 PM   #13
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ABC news just had Jim Jordan (Congressman and Nunes replacement) on repeating the lie the dossier started the investigation and Clinton paid for the dossier, and they did not make any attempt to rebut that lie at all.

No wonder so many people don't believe Trump is corrupt.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's definitely the latter. In the days immediately following the Barr letter he went on the offensive, demanding resignations and vowing prosecution. This is his "I'm *****d" reaction.
I mean President Trump thought he was ****** because he believed the investigation would bog down his presidency, which it probably would've.

His knee-jerk response to it is one of his many tragic flaws as a person. He just wanted it to go away, probably unaware it would **** him up even more.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:06 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweeted

ďA very exculpatory section of the Mueller Report: NO CONSPIRACY, COORDINATION or COLLUSION with the Trump Campaign and the Russians. You canít be more clear than that!Ē @GreggJarrett
Except the report when describing the Trump Tower meeting showed there was collusion. The Stone trial ain't over yet.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:10 PM   #16
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I asked Trump defenders if the Trump campaign was right to have accepted help from the Russian government, from someone like Vladimir Putin? Was it right for the Trump people to have no objection to Russian hacking of the email accounts of American political leaders and political parties (by definition an illegal act)? Was it acceptable that the Trump campaign didn't inform American intelligence agencies about the contacts? Other Western countries were picking up on this -- that the Russians were attempting to interfere in the American election and had been in contact with the Trump campaign -- and thought it was serious enough that they were forwarding their findings to the U.S. Government.

This is the answer I got.

Quote:
Local governments will ALWAYS have primary responsibility for both disaster preparedness and disaster relief.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It appears Trump's approval ratings are once again in the tank after the release of the Mueller report, according to Politico, dropping below the 40 mark.
That's ok, he can just have Fox News report his disapproval rating as his approval rating and it will look really good.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I asked Trump defenders if the Trump campaign was right to have accepted help from the Russian government, from someone like Vladimir Putin? Was it right for the Trump people to have no objection to Russian hacking of the email accounts of American political leaders and political parties (by definition an illegal act)? Was it acceptable that the Trump campaign didn't inform American intelligence agencies about the contacts? Other Western countries were picking up on this -- that the Russians were attempting to interfere in the American election and had been in contact with the Trump campaign -- and thought it was serious enough that they were forwarding their findings to the U.S. Government.

This is the answer I got.




I'm glad you keep pointing this out, and to all who keep presenting evidence and reasoning in such a manner.

But I'm sure you know you're not going to get a valid, reasoned response. The Trump GOP are like any other woo group (flat earthers specifically). They for the most part didn't use reason to get into their position, aren't there to find reasoning, and reasoning isn't going to get them to abandon it. Some few will, which is one reason standard arguments are still useful, but they're really their for emotional reasons. The feeling of belonging, having clear enemies, taking away the need to be accountable for their agency, validating their feelings of grievance... there are many emotional reasons for it.

Any who value their civic duty can rejoin respectable society at any point, but don't hold your breath. They are currently celebrating their leader's welcoming an attack on the US not rising to the level of criminality as a victory over the 'libtards'. Wait for some of them to get through that stage of grief to process the loss of their self-image.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:32 PM   #19
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Trump Retweeted

Tom Fitton
@TomFitton
COUP Update: Mueller Report vindicates @RealDonaldTrump even as it tries to smear him PLUS new @JudicialWatch lawsuits on FBI-Clinton collusion against Trump, FBI payments to Steele, and John Kerry's collusion with Iran. (link: https://youtu.be/h6gFTYtU-nQ) youtu.be/h6gFTYtU-nQ

President @realDonaldTrump Should File a Criminal Complaint with DOJ over Illicit Targeting - @JudicialWatch

UNPRECEDENTED Spying Campaign on @RealDonaldTrump: DOJ/FBI/NSA/CIA/State -- "all hands on deck" in Obama administration's going after Trump and then the corrupt targeting morphed into Mueller operation.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:33 PM   #20
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Trump retweeted

COUP: @RealDonaldTrump was right -- Mueller witchhunt part of #Spygate abuse begun by Obama DOJ/FBI, working with Hillary Clinton/DNC, to illegally target Trump. Mueller Report designed to provide grist for fraudulent impeachment investigation.

COUP UPDATE: Who needs to be investigated on #Spygate and other abuses targeting
@RealDonaldTrump? Partial list:

Obama

Biden

Susan Rice

Hillary Clinton

DNC

Brennan

Clapper

Comey

McCabe

Lynch

Page

Strzok

Yates
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:37 PM   #21
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Trump retweeted


Louie Gohmert
@replouiegohmert
What I have accumulated here is absolutely shocking upon the realization that #Mueller's disreputable, twisted history speaks to the character of the man placed in a position to attempt to legalize a coup against a lawfully-elected President. DOWNLOAD: https://www.hannity.com/media-room/g...ller-unmasked/
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I'm glad you keep pointing this out, and to all who keep presenting evidence and reasoning in such a manner.

But I'm sure you know you're not going to get a valid, reasoned response. The Trump GOP are like any other woo group (flat earthers specifically). They for the most part didn't use reason to get into their position, aren't there to find reasoning, and reasoning isn't going to get them to abandon it. Some few will, which is one reason standard arguments are still useful, but they're really their for emotional reasons. The feeling of belonging, having clear enemies, taking away the need to be accountable for their agency, validating their feelings of grievance... there are many emotional reasons for it.

Any who value their civic duty can rejoin respectable society at any point, but don't hold your breath. They are currently celebrating their leader's welcoming an attack on the US not rising to the level of criminality as a victory over the 'libtards'. Wait for some of them to get through that stage of grief to process the loss of their self-image.
A relevant and hard hitting Paul Krugman article in NY Times today: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/o...th=login-email
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:47 AM   #23
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In case anyone finds it useful, Axios Visuals have produced a neat little tool to highlight which parts of the Mueller report deal with various topics. Handy if you're looking for something in particular.

https://www.axios.com/explore-a-deta...b7b3e6d66.html
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Old 23rd April 2019, 02:08 AM   #24
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trump Tweets

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!
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Old 23rd April 2019, 03:24 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
trump Tweets

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!
What, still?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 03:50 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
What, still?
he's asking for more, now that there is a Mueller-shaped hole in his harassment schedule.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 04:16 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
In case anyone finds it useful, Axios Visuals have produced a neat little tool to highlight which parts of the Mueller report deal with various topics. Handy if you're looking for something in particular.

https://www.axios.com/explore-a-deta...b7b3e6d66.html

I don't know if it was mentioned before, but what is really useful for tea leaves readers is the version the New York Times has published, which is truly searchable and indexed.

I found it reading this interesting technical article (and a follow-up linked there) by the PDF Association. They are not amused about the 139 MB monster the DoJ released, and also not fully satisfied with the NYT version (they want to promote PDF after all), but they admire the effort of the latter. 22 people worked on that thing.

Originally Posted by PDF Association
Key take-aways
  • If Mueller delivered a "born digital" PDF to Justice, that file was printed and scanned back into a set of low-quality images for release; a disservice to all future users of the document, and also a violation of Section 508 regulations.
  • If Mueller delivered a paper document to the Department of Justice which was subsequently scanned, DoJ's treatment of the document is more understandable, but still non-conforming with Section 508.
  • Irrespective of the evidence and conclusions about the Trump campaign, the Special Counsel's report showcases the essential qualities of static, self-contained, reliable, sharable PDF in a world that increasingly runs on HTML.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 05:01 AM   #28
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https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/st...81434932035585

Quote:
Congress not beginning impeachment hearings sends a double signal to foreign countries that they can interfere with our elections, and as long as the candidate wins he can obstruct any investigation into it and no one will do anything
Reminder: Even Giuliani is admitting that the Trump campaign willingly accepted help from the Russian government and sought stolen material
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Old 23rd April 2019, 05:13 AM   #29
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Twitter thread on the counterintelligence aspects of Mueller's investigation
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Old 23rd April 2019, 05:15 AM   #30
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I'm all for Impeachment Investigation - not necessarily actual impeachment.

A pretty bad outcome would be for Trump to step down with a massive stack of pardons before everything about him, his campaign and his businesses is brought to light.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 06:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I found it reading this interesting technical article (and a follow-up linked there) by the PDF Association. They are not amused about the 139 MB monster the DoJ released, and also not fully satisfied with the NYT version (they want to promote PDF after all), but they admire the effort of the latter. 22 people worked on that thing.
Oh, the PDF Association are not amused are they? Well, too bad. It's their own damned fault the best way to properly redact information in the document is to convert to bitmap and back, because anything less has been botched time and again. It's a crap format that should only have ever been used between viewing software and the printer, like it was designed for.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 06:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I found it reading this interesting technical article (and a follow-up linked there) by the PDF Association. They are not amused about the 139 MB monster the DoJ released, and also not fully satisfied with the NYT version (they want to promote PDF after all), but they admire the effort of the latter. 22 people worked on that thing.
Interesting stuff. Clears up a couple of queries I had for sure.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 06:44 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
His efforts to obstruct were unsuccessful. So I don't know how you can conclude from this he can obstruct without consequence.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
His efforts to obstruct were unsuccessful. So I don't know how you can conclude from this he can obstruct without consequence.
The people who refused to obstruct on his orders are no longer there.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The people who refused to obstruct on his orders are no longer there.
So? Future investigations omits previous investigations, therefore he is not capable of obstructing any investigation.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 08:11 AM   #36
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Mod WarningI moved the hurricane discussion off to its own thread. Please continue that discussion there.

Also, move a bunch of posts to the general Trump thread. Please keep this thread to discussion of the Mueller Investigation & Report
Posted By:kmortis
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Old 23rd April 2019, 08:15 AM   #37
dasmiller
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
His efforts to obstruct were unsuccessful. So I don't know how you can conclude from this he can obstruct without consequence.
I wouldn't conclude that his efforts were unsuccessful. From the Mueller Report:
Quote:
Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump
Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated
individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian
election interference.
Quote:
Even when individuals testified or agreed to be interviewed, they sometimes
provided information that was false or incomplete, leading to some of the false-statements charges
described above. And the Office faced practical limits on its ability to access relevant evidence as
well-numerous witnesses and subjects lived abroad, and documents were held outside the United
States.

Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct
we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant
communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature
encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In
such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to
contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared
inconsistent with other known facts.
Quote:
given these identified gaps,
the Office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional
light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 08:17 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Oh, the PDF Association are not amused are they? Well, too bad. It's their own damned fault the best way to properly redact information in the document is to convert to bitmap and back, because anything less has been botched time and again. It's a crap format that should only have ever been used between viewing software and the printer, like it was designed for.

I was kind of hoping it would happen this time too.

It's not like Trump's people are known for their computer expertise, in spite of Trump knowing more about tech than anyone.

I guess they let someone competent in the DoJ handle it. There must be a few left.

Probably a Democrat.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 09:01 AM   #39
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Quote:
Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct
we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign---deleted relevant
communicationsor communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature
encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records.
In
such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to
contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared
inconsistent with other known facts.
What? Missing emails? Maybe Trump should invite Russia to find them.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:59 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I wouldn't conclude that his efforts were unsuccessful. From the Mueller Report:
We were talking about the president
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