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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:18 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We were talking about the president
I am unconvinced that the Trump Campaign operated completely independently of The Trump.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:02 PM   #42
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Apologies if this has already been posted, but Audible released a free audio book of the report: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I am unconvinced that the Trump Campaign operated completely independently of The Trump.
On the other hand, you'll probably have a bitch of a time demonstrating that Trump knew what was going on, understood it, and took an active part in directing it.

Collusion of the Gaps proceeds apace. We don't see Trump managing stuff that way, but we believe in Collusion, so we have faith that he's doing it while we're not looking.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Apologies if this has already been posted, but Audible released a free audio book of the report: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K
That's pretty cool.
This audio recording identifies the sections of The Mueller Report that have been redacted by the Office of the Attorney General. When the narrators reach a section of the report that has been redacted, they will give one of the four reasons for a redaction that is specified in the report. Those reasons are the following: Grand Jury, Harm to Ongoing Matter, Investigative Technique, Personal Privacy. To aid the listener’s comprehension of the report, we have recorded footnotes that contain secondary pieces of information, which provide additional context to the events described. Finally, references to US Code, federal regulations, court cases and other legal and technical documents have been adjusted for brevity and listener clarity. We are providing a downloadable PDF for a full and complete reference. This file can be accessed in your Library section along with the audio.
Makes sense. It sounds like they did a pretty good job. Do you happen to know how good the readers are, with this particular text?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:33 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the other hand, you'll probably have a bitch of a time demonstrating that Trump knew what was going on, understood it, and took an active part in directing it.

Collusion of the Gaps proceeds apace. We don't see Trump managing stuff that way, but we believe in Collusion, so we have faith that he's doing it while we're not looking.
Trump wrote Jr's excuse for the Tower meeting. You'll probably have a bitch of a time demonstrating that Trump didn't understand what was going on there.

He was warned by Yates not to hire Flynn. Kind of hard to explain why he ignored that warning until it became public and Trump was pressured to fire Flynn.

Trump lied about working on a deal for a Trump Tower Moscow for many months. Are you claiming he didn't know what was going on?

So many people are falling for the narrative, Trump was insulated. No he wasn't. But apparently a lot of people are happy to believe that falsehood.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
A relevant and hard hitting Paul Krugman article in NY Times today: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/o...th=login-email
Yeah, pretty much.

But I contend that the Trump GOP refusing to do their duty doesn't mean everyone is free not to do theirs.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Makes sense. It sounds like they did a pretty good job. Do you happen to know how good the readers are, with this particular text?
I mean, they're reading legalese. There is only so much you can do with it, but they haven't droned me to sleep yet, if that's what you're asking. I'm not very far into the audio version yet. I made it maybe a quarter of the way through the PDF version.

eta: I just hit a heavily redacted part. They make it clear enough.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Apologies if this has already been posted, but Audible released a free audio book of the report: https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Muell...ook/B07PXN468K
Thanks for the link! I know what I'll be listening too as I work on submitting hundreds of Tariff Exemption Requests for aluminum at work for the next...probably 30 hours.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The Russian Embassy in Washington has released its own report about Russiagate last Thursday. It's here:

The Russiagate Hysteria: A Case of Severe Russophobia (121 pages PDF, 2.3Mb)

From the Conclusion:
Your relationship with the Russian propaganda machine is really fascinating.

Don't you think there's something of a middle ground between Russophobia and Russophilia?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
trump Tweets

PRESIDENTIAL HARASSMENT!
THIS WITCH HUNT COMPLETELY EXONERATES ME!
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:52 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Your relationship with the Russian propaganda machine is really fascinating.

Don't you think there's something of a middle ground between Russophobia and Russophilia?
Russocurious?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:56 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Trump wrote Jr's excuse lie for the Tower meeting. You'll probably have a bitch of a time demonstrating that Trump didn't understand what was going on there.

He was warned by Yates and by Obama not to hire FlynnKind of hard to explain why he ignored that warning until it became public and Trump was pressured to fire Flynn.

Trump lied about working on a deal for a Trump Tower Moscow for many months. Are you claiming he didn't know what was going on?

So many people are falling for the narrative, Trump was insulated. No he wasn't. But apparently a lot of people are happy to believe that falsehood.
FTFY

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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:57 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the other hand, you'll probably have a bitch of a time demonstrating that Trump knew what was going on, understood it, and took an active part in directing it.
Indeed, Mueller was unable to prove it.

Quote:
Collusion of the Gaps proceeds apace. We don't see Trump managing stuff that way, but we believe in Collusion, so we have faith that he's doing it while we're not looking.
We suspect it to be true because it makes much more sense than the alternative. But at this point, I don't think anything "proceeds."
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Old 23rd April 2019, 02:36 PM   #54
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Excellent op ed in The Atlantic from a Republican who served on Trump's transition team but now supports his impeachment:

Quote:
I wanted to share my experience transitioning from Trump team member to pragmatist about Trump to advocate for his impeachment, because I think many other Republicans are starting a similar transition. Politics is a team sport, and if you actively work within a political party, there is some expectation that you will follow orders and rally behind the leader, even when you disagree. There is a point, though, at which that expectation turns from a mix of loyalty and pragmatism into something more sinister, a blind devotion that serves to enable criminal conduct.
The Mueller report was that tipping point for me, and it should be for Republican and independent voters, and for Republicans in Congress. In the face of a Department of Justice policy that prohibited him from indicting a sitting president, Mueller drafted what any reasonable reader would see as a referral to Congress to commence impeachment hearings.
Depending on how you count, roughly a dozen separate instances of obstruction of justice are contained in the Mueller report. The president dangled pardons in front of witnesses to encourage them to lie to the special counsel, and directly ordered people to lie to throw the special counsel off the scent.

The Founders knew that impeachment would be, in part, a political exercise. They decided that the legislative branch would operate as the best check on the president by channeling the people’s will. Congress has an opportunity to shape that public sentiment with the hearings ahead. As sentiments shift, more and more Republicans in Congress will feel emboldened to stand up to the president. The nation has been through this drama before, with more than a year of hearings in the Richard Nixon scandal, which ultimately forced his resignation.
Republicans who stand up to Trump today may face some friendly fire. Today’s Republican electorate seems spellbound by the sound bites of Twitter and cable news, for which Trump is a born wizard. Yet, in time, we can help rebuild the Republican Party, enabling it to rise from the ashes of the post-Trump apocalypse into a party with renewed commitment to principles of liberty, opportunity, and the rule of law.
The Mueller Report Was My Tipping Point
J. W. Verret - The Atlantic - Tuesday, April 23, 2019
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Old 23rd April 2019, 03:27 PM   #55
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Prominent Republicans other than Mitt Romney who are troubled by what the Mueller Report reveals about Donald Trump include former Ohio governor John Kasich:
Quote:
The former Ohio governor called President Trump’s behavior as described in the report “unacceptable” and “more than disappointing” in a Saturday tweet.
“[Donald Trump’s] behavior described in the #MuellerReport is more than disappointing. It’s unacceptable & not behavior we should expect from our president,” Kasich tweeted. “It’s worse than I’ve seen in my career observing & working with presidents or public officials. America deserves better.” news link
Former Arizona U.S. Sen Jeff Flake, a Republican, was also critical of Trump's behavior:
Quote:
When asked if he agreed with Rep. Adam Schiff’s portrayal of Trump’s actions as “immoral” and “unpatriotic,” the former Arizona senator responded by saying the verdict is “now in the political realm. It would be tough to recommend him for reelection,” Flake said.

Republican criticism of the GOP Trump critics -- most notably Mitt Romney -- has been pretty mild, at least among Romney's fellow Republican senators.
Quote:
“[Romney’s] trying to say, ‘I’m going to support him when I feel he’s right, and I’ll be publicly disagreeing with him,’ which is what a lot of us say right now,” said Sen. Mike Rounds (R-S.D.), who is on the ballot next year. “It just happens to be that he’s a former presidential contender, so when he does that, that makes news.”

“We’ve got to work together as a caucus to get things done with the president,” said Sen. John Hoeven (R-N.D.). “If there is a disagreement, make it on the issues … that’s the approach that should have been taken.” News link
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Old 23rd April 2019, 03:31 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Prominent Republicans other than Mitt Romney who are troubled by what the Mueller Report reveals about Donald Trump include former Ohio governor John Kasich:


Former Arizona U.S. Sen Jeff Flake, a Republican, was also critical of Trump's behavior:



Republican criticism of the GOP Trump critics -- most notably Mitt Romney -- has been pretty mild, at least among Romney's fellow Republican senators.
What if I told you we knew the GOP establishment politicians hated Trump since before the election?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 03:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Prominent Republicans other than Mitt Romney who are troubled by what the Mueller Report reveals about Donald Trump include former Ohio governor John Kasich:


Former Arizona U.S. Sen Jeff Flake, a Republican, was also critical of Trump's behavior:
I feel odd agreeing with theprestige, but I wouldn't read much into those two. Kasich and Flake have long been critical of Trump.

FWIW, I'd be happy to see Kasich on the Republican ticket. I suspect he's not challenging Trump in 2020 because he wants to make a less-controversial run in 2024.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 04:20 PM   #58
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I'm not reading that much into the comments by Flake and Kasich it's what other Republicans aren't saying. I think many people, regardless of their political orientation, are troubled by the willingness of the Trump campaign to embrace a foreign government, especially one like Russia. In case anyone forgot
Quote:
When Putin came to power in 1999, he almost certainly approved, and perhaps even orchestrated, the bombings of two apartment buildings in Moscow, in which hundreds of innocent Russians lost their lives. As Amy Knight, a specialist on the KGB, argues, the evidence makes it “abundantly clear” that the Russian security service, the FSB (which succeeded the KGB), was “responsible for carrying out the attacks.” Concludes Knight: It is “inconceivable” that the bombings would have been done “without the sanction of Putin,” who exploited the panic they created to crack down on the Chechens and present himself as an indispensable leader.

Russia’s ruthless bombing of Syria’s civilian population and targets has been termed criminal by various Western leaders and human rights organizations, prompting U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations [under Obama] Samantha Power to ask her Russian counterpart: “Is there no act of barbarism against civilians, no execution of a child, that gets under your skin?" Politico news link

This is from a CNN Money report last year:
Quote:
On paper, Russian President Vladimir Putin is a man of modest wealth. In reality, he may be one of the world's richest people. After announcing punishment for the alleged attempted murder of a former double agent in the UK, that country once again put Putin's wealth under scrutiny. "Three hundred billion dollars or more has been stolen from the Russian people by [Putin]. We should expose him for what he is," UK foreign affairs committee chair Tom Tugendhat said Wednesday. Link
Then you add in the political murders, the jailed dissidents, the crackdown on civil liberties inside Russia.

"I love it!"

.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 04:20 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What if I told you we knew the GOP establishment politicians hated Trump since before the election?
You mean the ones that roundly criticized him, called him unfit for office and would never support him but are so far up his ass now that it takes a search and rescue team to find them? I'd say typical of the Republican hypocrisy.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 04:38 PM   #60
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Donald Trump on Putin:
Quote:
Tweet 2013 - Do you think Putin will be going to The Miss Universe Pageant in November in Moscow - if so, will he become my new best friend?

FOX News 2015 - “I feel that Putin is somebody I would actually get along with him."

FOX News 2015 - "I will tell you that I think in terms of leadership, he is getting an 'A,' and our president is not doing so well," Trump said. "They did not look good together."

Dec 2015 - Trump said on Morning Joe that Putin was a better leader than Obama, and dismissed Joe Scarborough’s allegations that the Russian president “kills journalists that don’t agree with him. He’s running his country and at least he’s a leader, unlike what we have in this country,” Trump said. He added: "I think our country does plenty of killing also, Joe, so you know. There's a lot of stupidity going on in the world right now, a lot of killing going on, a lot of stupidity." CNN link
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Old 23rd April 2019, 05:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You mean the ones that roundly criticized him, called him unfit for office and would never support him but are so far up his ass now that it takes a search and rescue team to find them? I'd say typical of the Republican hypocrisy.

"Search and rescue team"

Hilarious!

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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:03 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But apparently a lot of people are happy to believe that falsehood.
Yes some people do believe in plenty of falsehoods
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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:06 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Yes some people do believe in plenty of falsehoods
So your claim, given all the evidence, is that Trump didn't know his team was colluding with Russia?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:07 PM   #64
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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:47 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I'm not reading that much into the comments by Flake and Kasich it's what other Republicans aren't saying. I think many people, regardless of their political orientation, are troubled by the willingness of the Trump campaign to embrace a foreign government, especially one like Russia. In case anyone forgot

This is from a CNN Money report last year:

Then you add in the political murders, the jailed dissidents, the crackdown on civil liberties inside Russia.

"I love it!"

.
The Russian apartment bombings is still a very obscure event and not many people know about it. Even top Obama ambassador Michael McFaul rejects the false flag scenario. Rubio and McCain mentioned it once or twice each, but it'd be kinda hard to get Trump to read.

The Russian war crimes during the Syrian war are better documented and comprehensible, though they're easy to overlook. Hell, most people overlook American atrocities in our wars, even elected leaders.

I think all of that just goes right over Trump's head if he hears it at all, but the same can be said for many other officials who on paper should be more competent and aware of them.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 08:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the other hand, you'll probably have a bitch of a time demonstrating that Trump knew what was going on, understood it, and took an active part in directing it.
Maybe you are correct. Al Capone was only guilty of tax evasion, after all.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 09:10 PM   #67
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Given that Trump and his Team were briefed by the IC on the Russian threat, there is no presumption of ignorance.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:09 PM   #68
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Great Trump isn't ignorant I'm glad that's settled
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:25 PM   #69
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No, Trump isn't ignorant, he is uneducable.
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Old 24th April 2019, 12:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Mueller Report Was My Tipping Point
J. W. Verret - The Atlantic - Tuesday, April 23, 2019
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...chment/587785/
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Old 24th April 2019, 01:10 AM   #71
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Seems the big problem now is that media was too good at reporting on Trump's shenanigans, leading to a drip-drip flow of information. This allowed Trump's enablers time to dishonestly justify every piece in turn.

If the Muller report had arrived (in a world where it could have without pressure from the public in the first place) without anyone knowing what was in it, it would likely have sparked a massive reaction, and the enablers would be swamped. The events described go way beyond Watergate in scope. It describes a person who is severely disloyal to his country and who in every way attempted to break laws to cheat in an election, but was simply too dumb - or had too dumb accomplices - to manage to actually commit an indictable offence that could be proven beyond reasobable doubt.

The report shows clearly that Trump is bent as all hell, and it's a road map to impeachment.

None of this changes the fact that impeachment would not result in a conviction, because the GOP is still too corrupt for that to happen.
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:20 AM   #72
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I don't want to see him impeached. The 46% of U.S. voters who chose Trump knew exactly what kind of man he was, none of this is a surprise. Loyalty to the United States? If Russia had offered him a deal that was "too good to turn down," but required Trump to renounce his U.S. citizenship and become a Russian citizen, is anyone naive enough to think he wouldn't have done it in a heartbeat? He's not politically correct, that's why they love him so.

I want to see him rejected at the polls, I want to see him become one of the few incumbent presidents to be voted out of office. I want to see the American electorate tell him, "Eff you!"
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:34 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Russocurious?
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:35 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't want to see him impeached. The 46% of U.S. voters who chose Trump knew exactly what kind of man he was, none of this is a surprise. Loyalty to the United States? If Russia had offered him a deal that was "too good to turn down," but required Trump to renounce his U.S. citizenship and become a Russian citizen, is anyone naive enough to think he wouldn't have done it in a heartbeat? He's not politically correct, that's why they love him so.

I want to see him rejected at the polls, I want to see him become one of the few incumbent presidents to be voted out of office. I want to see the American electorate tell him, "Eff you!"
I suppose it depends on whether you think it's more important for Trump to be told "eff you" by the public, or for the US government to show that there are consequences for acting like Trump has and thereby discouraging future presidents from doing the same things, as well as demonstrating to hostile foreign powers that they cannot interfere in US elections with impunity. Because that's the real question - is it about Trump, or is it about America?
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:38 AM   #75
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I'd like impeach proceedings happen. Republicans will protect him, the public will vote Trump and the Republicans out. Then the incoming president has Trump and all the other criminals involved prosecuted and jailed as appropriate.
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Old 24th April 2019, 02:57 AM   #76
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My opinion on the impeach vs vote-him-out question is that impeachment is the principled action, but waiting for the next election is the pragmatic choice.

The situation we find ourselves in is exactly the kind of problem impeachment was meant to solve: a corrupt, probably compromised, President is committing crimes and needs to be removed to protect the country. It really couldn’t be a better fit of problem and response. However, In the 230ish years since the Constitution was written, we have developed political parties so entrenched that the likelihood of Trump actually being removed, due to the “R” after his name, is so low as to be approximately zero. If the Clinton impeachment is any guide, a failed attempt at removal will likely solidify Trump’s dwindling support with his base and make him harder to vote out in 2020.

Defeating his re-election is not a lock, but it does have a better chance of being successful than impeachment or impeachment followed by voting him out.
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Old 24th April 2019, 03:07 AM   #77
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An impeachment proceeding would be very divisive. I agree with Nancy Pelosi. Trump isn't worth it.
Quote:
Impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path, because it divides the country. And he’s just not worth it.” Nancy Pelosi Amy Davidson Sorkin in The New Yorker
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Old 24th April 2019, 03:13 AM   #78
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The country is already divided. It's Trump's cult vs everyone else. Impeachment will neither make it more or less divided. Claiming so is as silly as saying to act civil, otherwise the Republicans will play dirty....
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Old 24th April 2019, 03:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The country is already divided. It's Trump's cult vs everyone else. Impeachment will neither make it more or less divided.
Maybe I’m being naive, but I get the impression that Trump’s 2016 support is fraying at the edges. I could be wrong that impeachment would be a principled act of futility, but do you doubt that his escape from removal would be spun far and wide as evidence that Trump was not committing crimes?
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Old 24th April 2019, 03:33 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Maybe I’m being naive, but I get the impression that Trump’s 2016 support is fraying at the edges. I could be wrong that impeachment would be a principled act of futility, but do you doubt that his escape from removal would be spun far and wide as evidence that Trump was not committing crimes?
Trumpublicans will spin it either way. We should not be making decisions based on what his cult will or won't do.
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