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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 24th April 2019, 03:43 AM   #81
carlosy
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trumpublicans will spin it either way. We should not be making decisions based on what his cult will or won't do.
Yes!

But!

Decisions should be based on reality. And unfortunately, the TrumpClan is a siginificant chunk of reality.
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Old 24th April 2019, 03:56 AM   #82
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Yes!

But!

Decisions should be based on reality. And unfortunately, the TrumpClan is a siginificant chunk of reality.
The reality is, their opinion on impeachment should not matter.
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Old 24th April 2019, 04:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The reality is, their opinion on impeachment should not matter.
This is why I differentiated between impeachment being the principled right thing to do, but waiting is probably the tactically best thing to do. Which you choose depends, I suppose, on what your end goal is. Do you want to do the right action or get the best result?
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:02 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is why I differentiated between impeachment being the principled right thing to do, but waiting is probably the tactically best thing to do. Which you choose depends, I suppose, on what your end goal is. Do you want to do the right action or get the best result?
Sounds something like “The end justifies the means”.

I’m leaning towards impeachment. Getting Mueller and McGahn and the rest testifying publicly before the Senate will provide condemning sound bites that would carry far more weight with the public at large than the written Mueller report.

Right now, we are again witnessing obstruction in plain view. The law clearly states that Congress can demand Trump’s tax return. Not providing it, or willfully delaying the release, or ordering others not to follow a court order, are themselves obstructing justice. As is telling subordinates to ignore lawful subpoenas. Trump has used lawyers as weapons his entire adult life, overall to his benefit. It’s unreasonable to expect him to stop now.

I predict a a Constitutional crisis, with marshals ready to take Mnuchin or his IRS underling into custody for contempt of court. I want people held accountable. But I find this tactic of delay, delay, delay quite aggravating. Grrr...
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:06 AM   #85
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Actually, the Dems should be willing to go all the way to the Supreme Court to get Trump to testify under oath - there is unambiguous precedent in the form of Clinton.
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:15 AM   #86
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Interesting Politico article I read after my post above, reinforcing some of my views:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...288798?cid=apn
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:19 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sounds something like “The end justifies the means”.
Oh, I make no judgement, really, one way or the other. I see value in both approaches. Like most complex situations, the best solution depends on what you’re specifically trying to accomplish. Subtle nuances can make a big difference.
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:35 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Oh, I make no judgement, really, one way or the other. I see value in both approaches. Like most complex situations, the best solution depends on what you’re specifically trying to accomplish. Subtle nuances can make a big difference.
I agree. It’s not clear cut. Which is why I just said I’m leaning towards impeachment. I certainly appreciate the arguments against.
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Old 24th April 2019, 05:44 AM   #89
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I can't find it now, but I saw data the other day which showed that the public approval of the impeachment of Nixon was very low (around 14%, IIRC) until it had been underway for a while. It's also worth bearing in mind that impeachment would uncover and make public even more evidence against Trump. One last point that I saw made elsewhere was there was a commentator who said "Americans wait for the TV show" - meaning that the majority of people aren't going to read the Mueller report. But a lot of them would watch impeachment hearings. So even the reiteration in an official setting of information that is now public would help to change hearts and minds.

I think impeachment would have or very quickly gain widespread support. Just today there was an article by a Republican who worked on Trump's transition team who said that the Mueller report was the final straw for him and he now supported impeachment. Yes, there would be a hardcore base who wouldn't accept it and who would start trouble - but those same people would do the same thing if Trump were to be voted out. And they would have more support, because fewer people would be informed of the facts.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:08 AM   #90
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Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.

Now that he has not been charged, has anyone gone the other way?

It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.

The media and DNC have been trying to correct their galactically bad 2016 campaign for almost 3 years, is the fog of cognitive dissonance starting to lift?

Honesty please.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:10 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is why I differentiated between impeachment being the principled right thing to do, but waiting is probably the tactically best thing to do. Which you choose depends, I suppose, on what your end goal is. Do you want to do the right action or get the best result?
I believe the best result will come from impeachment.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:11 AM   #92
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Scott Adams, who has been predicting almost everything correctly for 3 years, has said he thinks the percentage of people who are going to start flipping to support Donald Trump, is around 10%.

If 10% of past anti-trumpers are flipping to his side now that he has been vetted, then that spells bad news for 2020 Dem run.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:14 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?
As Mueller himself points out, and as has been pointed out throughout this process, he was never going to indict a sitting President. That's Congress' job via impeachment.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.
That's a weird standard.

It has been on record for a while that DOJ policy was that it was not their role to charge a sitting president, so no matter what evidence was found, that was not going to happen.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:19 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.

Now that he has not been charged, has anyone gone the other way?

It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.

The media and DNC have been trying to correct their galactically bad 2016 campaign for almost 3 years, is the fog of cognitive dissonance starting to lift?

Honesty please.
I notably refused to make conclusions and regularly called the arguments about collusion here bad arguments.

This report makes me support impeachment.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:22 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.
You think the Mueller report supports, for example, Trump's statement that neither he nor his campaign had any contacts with Russians?
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:25 AM   #97
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Who has been charged with colluding with the Russians?

There are people on the campaign that are not sitting presidents.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:28 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Scott Adams, who has been predicting almost everything correctly for 3 years, has said he thinks the percentage of people who are going to start flipping to support Donald Trump, is around 10%.

If 10% of past anti-trumpers are flipping to his side now that he has been vetted, then that spells bad news for 2020 Dem run.
Addams is an idiot and wrong constantly. During the election he thought the president would be successfully persuasive. He wasn't. Polls were and remain right. It wasn't a strategy.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:29 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'd like impeach proceedings happen. Republicans will protect him, the public will vote Trump and the Republicans out.
I wouldn't be so sure if I were you.

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
My opinion on the impeach vs vote-him-out question is that impeachment is the principled action, but waiting for the next election is the pragmatic choice.
Exactly.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #100
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Dems..... wishful thinking since 2016
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:32 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Dems..... wishful thinking since 2016
You are welcome to post something of substance whenever you're ready.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:33 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The reality is, their opinion on impeachment should not matter.
That's the theory. The reality is that it does.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?
Well, Mueller just told us that the reason why he wasn't charged is because he's the sitting president, and that had there been no good evidence for obstruction he would've said so. If anything it should convince YOU that Trump probably obstructed justice.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:33 AM   #103
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Trump Tweets

“Former CIA analyst Larry Johnson accuses United Kingdom Intelligence of helping Obama Administration Spy on the 2016 Trump Presidential Campaign.” @OANN
WOW! It is now just a question of time before the truth comes out, and when it does, it will be a beauty!

The Mueller Report, despite being written by Angry Democrats and Trump Haters, and with unlimited money behind it ($35,000,000), didn’t lay a glove on me. I DID NOTHING WRONG. If the partisan Dems ever tried to Impeach, I would first head to the U.S. Supreme Court. Not only......

.....are there no “High Crimes and Misdemeanors,” there are no Crimes by me at all. All of the Crimes were committed by Crooked Hillary, the Dems, the DNC and Dirty Cops - and we caught them in the act! We waited for Mueller and WON, so now the Dems look to Congress as last hope!
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:34 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Who has been charged with colluding with the Russians?

There are people on the campaign that are not sitting presidents.
We're talking about obstruction. Conspiracy is harder to prove, but it's clear that Trump and his cronies were more than willing to receive illegal help from the Russians in their campaign.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:38 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
“Former CIA analyst Larry Johnson accuses United Kingdom Intelligence of helping Obama Administration Spy on the 2016 Trump Presidential Campaign.” @OANN
WOW! It is now just a question of time before the truth comes out, and when it does, it will be a beauty!
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...41325124661248

Quote:
This tweet is SO false that Fox News actually SUSPENDED a guy for pushing this discredited BS (yes, really)

We'd be getting more truth-value if Trump were tweeting about UFO SIGHTINGS

And (bonus) he's attacking our TOP ALLY
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:44 AM   #106
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OK Obstruction, it wasn't that he couldn't charge a sitting President, it's that the President has Constitutional rights to fire anyone in the Department of Justice.

His rights to do that are laid out in the Constitution.

Why would Robert Mueller Charge him with Obstruction, when every court in the land would say that he is Constitutionally empowered to fire the FBI director? Mueller would look like an idiot.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:51 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
OK Obstruction, it wasn't that he couldn't charge a sitting President
Yes it was. Did you read the report?

Quote:
it's that the President has Constitutional rights to fire anyone in the Department of Justice.
No he doesn't. He can't fire Mueller directly, for instance.
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Old 24th April 2019, 06:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes it was. Did you read the report?



No he doesn't. He can't fire Mueller directly, for instance.
He didn't fire Mueller...
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:06 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
He didn't fire Mueller...
Belz was correctly refuting your assertion that "the President has Constitutional rights to fire anyone in the Department of Justice."
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:07 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
OK Obstruction, it wasn't that he couldn't charge a sitting President, it's that the President has Constitutional rights to fire anyone in the Department of Justice.

His rights to do that are laid out in the Constitution.

Why would Robert Mueller Charge him with Obstruction, when every court in the land would say that he is Constitutionally empowered to fire the FBI director? Mueller would look like an idiot.
In a lot of obstruction cases, the underlying activity is legal. For example, we have a right to shred paperwork. If we are shredding that paperwork before a subpoena to obstruct an investigation, then that is a crime.
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:12 AM   #111
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Drewbot: do you think the Mueller report supports, for example, Trump's statement that neither he nor his campaign had any contacts with Russians?
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:17 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
OK Obstruction, it wasn't that he couldn't charge a sitting President, it's that the President has Constitutional rights to fire anyone in the Department of Justice.

His rights to do that are laid out in the Constitution.

Why would Robert Mueller Charge him with Obstruction, when every court in the land would say that he is Constitutionally empowered to fire the FBI director? Mueller would look like an idiot.
Let's ask Mr. Mueller himself, rather than speculating about it. In Section II, page 8 (or page 220 of the .pdf):

"Under applicable Supreme Court precedent, the Constitution does not categorically and permanently immunize a President for obstructing justice through the use of his Article II powers ."
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:17 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In a lot of obstruction cases, the underlying activity is legal. For example, we have a right to shred paperwork. If we are shredding that paperwork before a subpoena to obstruct an investigation, then that is a crime.
How about deleting emails, bleachbitting servers and smashing blackberries that are under subpoena, is that a crime?
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:20 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Scott Adams, who has been predicting almost everything correctly for 3 years, has said he thinks the percentage of people who are going to start flipping to support Donald Trump, is around 10%.

If 10% of past anti-trumpers are flipping to his side now that he has been vetted, then that spells bad news for 2020 Dem run.
Scott Adams thinks that Trump has his supporters under a spell, basically.
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?

I know people like my brother were telling me that once the Mueller Report came out, i'd start hating him too, and I agreed that when it did, and he was charged with a crime, i'd turn on Trump in a heartbeat.

Now that he has not been charged, has anyone gone the other way?

It seems for 2 years Fox, Trump, and his supporters have been correct, and now that the Mueller report is out, no one is realizing that they have been fooled for two years.

The media and DNC have been trying to correct their galactically bad 2016 campaign for almost 3 years, is the fog of cognitive dissonance starting to lift?

Honesty please.
Wow!

Since you are asking for honesty, then here goes my answer ...

If the first place, it would have been quite unlikely that Trump would have been charged with a crime regardless of what the Mueller investigation would have found. After all, it has been clearly stated that the Justice Department will not charge a sitting President with a crime.

In the second place, the Mueller report shows several times just what an incredible liar that Trump actually is.

In the third place, there have already been a number of people who have gotten into serious trouble due to the Mueller investigation and it is quite likely that there will be additional people who will get into trouble due to the Mueller investigation.

In the fourth place, there still are a number of other Trump investigations as work, so Trump is hardly out of the woods yet.
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On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:22 AM   #116
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about deleting emails, bleachbitting servers and smashing blackberries that are under subpoena, is that a crime?
If it is to obstruct an investigation.
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:23 AM   #117
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about deleting emails, bleachbitting servers and smashing blackberries that are under subpoena, is that a crime?
Mueller has reported that Trump campaign and White House members have deleted mails, destroyed evidence, used high encryption to evade detection, pressured witnesses into silence, and lied, lied, lied to investigators.
Is that a crime?
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:29 AM   #118
Shalamar
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Mueller has reported that Trump campaign and White House members have deleted mails, destroyed evidence, used high encryption to evade detection, pressured witnesses into silence, and lied, lied, lied to investigators.
Is that a crime?
You forget the underlying premise in American politics: "It's only bad if a Democrat does it."
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:35 AM   #119
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
He didn't fire Mueller...
Well, of course not. He can't.

Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about deleting emails, bleachbitting servers and smashing blackberries that are under subpoena, is that a crime?
Hey, look over there!!!
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Old 24th April 2019, 07:37 AM   #120
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is anyone tempering their hatred for Donald Trump, now that he has been investigated, and not charged with anything?
This brings up a personal conflict I have.

I try very hard not to hate. Anyone or anything.

With Trump, I do despise virtually everything he stands for, his lying, his childish mocking and his contempt. It’s SO very hard not to end up hating the man - if anyone in recent memory deserves it, it’s him.

But Lord knows I try.
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“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
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