Man arrested for shooting person who tried to steal the man's car

crescent

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crescent
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This may contribute to the debate over the use guns by civilians in response to crimes. On social media I have already noticed facts getting mangled in discussions of this particular incident.

Affidavit: Man arrested for murder after confronting car theft suspects with AR-15, firing at their vehicle

Brice Fitch is accused of firing that shot following a confrontation that occurred at around 4 a.m. Friday in the 300 block of South Jasmine Street in Denver. According to the affidavit, Fitch told police he “heard rustling” when he was letting his dogs outside, and noticed the door to his vehicle was open and the lights were on.

This led Fitch to confront the suspects he said were breaking into his vehicle, and to yell “hey, get out of my car,” the affidavit says.

Fitch told police he went back inside to get his AR-15 and told another person who was home to call police. The affidavit says he then walked toward the suspect’s vehicle and that he could see a man and woman trying to get inside

“The victim observed the driver reached for the console area and drive off, [swerving] in the direction of him, and the gun went off,” the affidavit reads.

Fitch told police that the gun went off when he fell, and that he had his hand on the trigger, pulling it by accident. He said the driver’s side door of the vehicle – which was still open – “went over him.”

The suspect’s vehicle, according to the affidavit, then stopped in the middle of the block, and Fitch said he shot at the back of it twice, hitting it in the rear.
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In particular, I keep seeing people saying that Fitch fired at the people to try to stop them from stealing his car. This is not true - he saw them in his car, but by the time he got his gun, the thieves were in their own car, not his. It seems likely that Fitch's legal defense will push the idea that the first shot may have been accidental and the next two because he thought they were going to run him over.
 
“The victim observed the driver reached for the console area and drive off, [swerving] in the direction of him, and the gun went off,” the affidavit reads.
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Well there goes "guns don't kill people" I guess.
 
Guns don't just "go off". If it was "Accidental" then he had to have had his finger inside the trigger guard. Anyone that does that and isn't intending to fire is a *ding* and quite frankly, anyone that fires an AR-15 in an urban residential environment should be locked up, imo.
 
Murder 1 seems like a stretch; I suspect that will get bargained down to manslaughter.

I did find this advice laughable:

“If someone is stealing your car, call the police," Robinson said. "You have no other lawful options.”
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"Robinson said the only situations where deadly force is permissible under Colorado law are in self-defense or defense of another, as well as the Make My Day Law."


I lol'd....a Law named after a Harry Callahan expression.... I love it!
 
Lock him up

Tough luck, but then you are an idiot, so thems the breaks.
 
smartcooky said:
"Robinson said the only situations where deadly force is permissible under Colorado law are in self-defense or defense of another, as well as the Make My Day Law."


I lol'd....a Law named after a Harry Callahan expression.... I love it!
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IIRC, similar to California's Castle Doctrine, you can't shoot at a fleeing criminal outside of your home.

He's looking at doing some time for this, as he should.
 
So, basically, the would-be thieves (of the car or contents) fled, but he still shot at them with a high-velocity rifle in a residential area. If that isn't murder, I don't know what is.

Also, who lets their dogs out at 04:00?!
 
is it still murder...?

If , while making their escape, the perps drive at you/try to run you over?


Also we let our dogs out between 4-5am every morning (go to bed round 10-11pm and let the dog out every 6 hrs on avg to avoid any accidents) ...


He should not have went back outside w the gun once he found out what was going on , but having done so I don' think I'd call it murder if they were trying to run him down.
 
Pvt. Stash said:
If , while making their escape, the perps drive at you/try to run you over?


Also we let our dogs out between 4-5am every morning (go to bed round 10-11pm and let the dog out every 6 hrs on avg to avoid any accidents) ...


He should not have went back outside w the gun once he found out what was going on , but having done so I don' think I'd call it murder if they were trying to run him down.
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He let off an AR-15 in a residential area over a car ffs

Some perspective
 
Know how they feel though

I mean I had my car stolen once and the first thing I thought wasn't ring insurance.

It was if only I had a high powered semi automatic weapon while they were doing it to stop it.

Cos you know

A car is sooo important
 
Brainster said:
Murder 1 seems like a stretch; I suspect that will get bargained down to manslaughter.

I did find this advice laughable:
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Yep limiting killing as an option only when you are afraid for your life is silly, it needs to be expanded to far more interpersonal interactions. It is the american way.
 
smartcooky said:
Wait! The woman is dead too?

Where did you hear that?
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The woman is MIA. They found the deceased in the car at a second location after the fact. The other thief may not be keen on making herself known to police. Who knows if we'll ever get her witness account.

Yeah, the "swerved at me" defense seems like a desperate post-hoc explanation for why shooting a fleeing thief isn't murder. I imagine that our suspect will have an uphill legal battle to try and prove that he shot in self defense consistent with the law, as should be the case. Combine that with "the gun went off on accident", this sounds like a desperate man trying to reduce his criminal culpability after the fact.

Maybe they went with Murder 1 because retrieving the rifle and returning could be considered premeditation. I wouldn't say retrieving a gun to confront a thief necessarily criminal, but couple it with an unlawful killing and you could have a real problem. Getting a gun to confront a thief outside the home is probably not a wise course of action, even in self-defense friendly states.

Since most cases are settled with plea agreements, odds are good there won't a be thorough discussion of these matters in court.
 
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This will probably sound very ignorant hick dude from NZ, but do AR 15s not have a safety?
 
cullennz said:
This will probably sound very ignorant hick dude from NZ, but do AR 15s not have a safety?
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They do. The AR-15 has very ergonomic controls. The safety can be felt with the thumb of the firing hand (assuming right handed) quite easily without changing grip.

I don't buy the "accidental discharge" line one bit. Best case scenario is that our killer was extremely negligent by pointing a loaded rifle with safety off at a person and unintentionally pulled the trigger. If i were a juror, I don't think I'd put much effort into parsing extreme negligence from deliberate action in such a situation.

The article mentions two additional shots at the rear of the vehicle. The accidental discharge explanation beggars belief.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
They do. The AR-15 has very ergonomic controls. The safety can be felt with the thumb of the firing hand (assuming right handed) quite easily without changing grip.

I don't buy the "accidental discharge" line one bit. Best case scenario is that our killer was extremely negligent by pointing a loaded rifle with safety off at a person and unintentionally pulled the trigger. If i were a juror, I don't think I'd put much effort into parsing extreme negligence from deliberate action in such a situation.

The article mentions two additional shots at the rear of the vehicle. The accidental discharge explanation beggars belief.
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Cheers

Dude is an idiot then

Lock him up for some years and try to teach him common sense/decency/value of inanimate objects compared to human life
 
crescent said:
This may contribute to the debate over the use guns by civilians in response to crimes. On social media I have already noticed facts getting mangled in discussions of this particular incident.

Affidavit: Man arrested for murder after confronting car theft suspects with AR-15, firing at their vehicle



In particular, I keep seeing people saying that Fitch fired at the people to try to stop them from stealing his car. This is not true - he saw them in his car, but by the time he got his gun, the thieves were in their own car, not his. It seems likely that Fitch's legal defense will push the idea that the first shot may have been accidental and the next two because he thought they were going to run him over.
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As a general rule, civilians ought not to fire into a moving vehicle (outside of being fired on by the vehicle occupants) due to the potential of greater harm to uninvolved parties if the vehicle driver is seriously injured or killed.

There are many LEA's that have a narrow use-of-force policy on firing into a moving vehicle for that very reason.

My .02 based on the facts as reported is that this isn't a good shoot, but I've been wrong before - primarily this incident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

The Joe Horn shooting controversy occurred on November 14, 2007, in Pasadena, Texas, United States, when local resident Joe Horn shot and killed two burglars outside his neighbor's home. Recordings of Horn's exchange with emergency dispatch indicated that he was asked repeatedly not to interfere with the burglary, because police would soon be on scene.[1] The shootings resulted in debates regarding self-defense, Castle Doctrine laws, and Texas laws relating to use of deadly force to prevent or stop property crimes. The illegal alien status of both burglars was highlighted because of the U.S. border controversy.[2] On June 30, 2008, Joe Horn was cleared by a grand jury in the Pasadena shootings.

I would've bet money on an indictment. I was wrong.
 
Trebuchet said:
Unfortunately, cops use that defense all the damn time.
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Pretty much every concealed carry class for ordinary citizens could start with the sentence "You aren't a cop, your decision to kill someone will be scrutinized for lawfulness".
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Pretty much every concealed carry class for ordinary citizens could start with the sentence "You aren't a cop, your decision to kill someone will be scrutinized for lawfulness".
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To be fair, a cop's decision to kill someone should also be scrutinised for lawfulness. It's just that there are (or should be) more circumstances where it is lawful for a cop to kill someone than for a civilian.
 
arthwollipot said:
To be fair, a cop's decision to kill someone should also be scrutinised for lawfulness. It's just that there are (or should be) more circumstances where it is lawful for a cop to kill someone than for a civilian.
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So what should those be? If a civilian can only kill someone if there is a legitimate threat to life and limb, when outside of those situations should a police officer be able to kill?

Castle doctrine in theory makes more situations where a civilian can kill than an officer, as there is the presumed threat there.

Of course in practice it works nothing like that but in theory no police should not have more circumstances to kill than a civilian.
 
arthwollipot said:
To be fair, a cop's decision to kill someone should also be scrutinised for lawfulness. It's just that there are (or should be) more circumstances where it is lawful for a cop to kill someone than for a civilian.
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Sure, there are circumstances where police would have more latitude than a regular citizen. Much more significant is the total lack of general accountability that exists for police in general, even in the most severe cases of poor judgement and behavior.

Well, for example, when a cop shoots an unarmed man crawling on his knees, crying and begging for his life, it results in an acquittal. Ordinary citizens should not expect such positive results in a similar circumstance.

In an interesting reversal of culpability, an armed citizen who uses deadly force appropriately should probably be more concerned about having to defend themselves in court, at great expense, than a cop who uses deadly force inappropriately.

"Used force consistent with my training" is the new "just following orders". Since ordinary citizens are not trained LE officers, that catch-all excuse is not available.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
So what should those be? If a civilian can only kill someone if there is a legitimate threat to life and limb, when outside of those situations should a police officer be able to kill?
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To protect others, or to protect property.

ponderingturtle said:
Castle doctrine in theory makes more situations where a civilian can kill than an officer, as there is the presumed threat there.
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It probably doesn't really need to be said, but I'm not a fan of castle doctrine.

ponderingturtle said:
Of course in practice it works nothing like that but in theory no police should not have more circumstances to kill than a civilian.
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Then what sets them apart from civilian vigilantes?
 
arthwollipot said:
To protect others, or to protect property.
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Protecting others is covered in self defense for civilians, and property why should the police kill to protect property when the property owners can't? Castle Doctrine makes it easier for property owners to kill on their property when police should in theory need more information than they are trespassing.
It probably doesn't really need to be said, but I'm not a fan of castle doctrine.
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Me neither but the point stands
Then what sets them apart from civilian vigilantes?
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Generally it is the ability to use non lethal forces to gain compliance and the authority to give lawful commands and enforce them. In terms of lethal force they are not granted any specific entitlement. Maybe when there is a legal requirement to flee they are allowed to stand their ground in states with no stand your ground law, so they might not quite have the theoretical limits on having to avoid violence if possible. But in theory legally they are not terribly more open to use lethal force than anyone else.
 
Police have a mandate to protect life and property. It's in their job description. Civilian property owners do not have this mandate. They have a mandate to protect their own lives. Police should therefore have a little more leeway around their decision to use lethal force.

Furthermore, police are trained. They are trained in law and law enforcement - in theory, at least. Civilians are not. A gun in the hands of a cop is not the same as a gun in the hands of a citizen.
 
OK, correct me if I'm wrong on this.

The AR-15 is a military type rifle. It was/is issued to soldiers.

During soldier training and operations, surely they have situations where they have to suddenly fall to the ground with their AR-15 in hand, and get ready to respond to a threat.

In that case, it would be VERY dangerous and counterproductive if the AR-15 had a tendency to "just go off" as it hit the ground. Does the safety easily flick off or something?

Instead, as a non-gun-expert, I expect it will have a solid safety mechanism that is reasonably rugged and reliable under such extreme usage. The user has to be quite deliberate about that action. And I'm pretty sure soldiers are trained to be sure of what they are shooting at first, and what is behind what they are shooting at. Basic stuff.

So if all that is so, I strongly suspect the owner of this AR-15 brandished it with the safety off from the start. When he fell, he fired without taking proper aim or care. Then he stood up and took a couple more potshots. In a suburban area.

I think he's is serious trouble.
 
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