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Old 8th May 2019, 09:49 PM   #121
arthwollipot
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You'd also want to train your whale to be friendly with people if you wanted it to carry gear and supplies for covert commandos using SCUBA equipment. There's another scenario. I'm sure you can think of more.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:49 PM   #122
dann
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I know that. I posted the original article, remember? I was responding to the idea that the whale's behaviour suggested that it wasn't military. If you were going to use the whale to carry a bomb to blow up a ship, you'd train it to seek out ships and people, not to avoid them. Do I think that's what this whale was actually trained for? No, I don't. But its apparent friendliness in no way disproves the idea that it had been trained by the military.

Yes, it does, at least if you take your idea seriously. If you'd want it to blow up a ship, you'd want it to seek out ships, not people. For that purpose, you'd want it to remain hidden, not to start playing with people and give them time to notice the bomb and kill the whale before it exploded.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:51 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You'd also want to train your whale to be friendly with people if you wanted it to carry gear and supplies for covert commandos using SCUBA equipment. There's another scenario. I'm sure you can think of more.

Yes, I can. Why would they train it to spin around so people could see all sides of it - including a bomb? Scare tactics?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 8th May 2019, 09:57 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I can. Why would they train it to spin around so people could see all sides of it - including a bomb? Scare tactics?!
Maybe that was natural behaviour that they were unable to train it to stop doing. Maybe that's why it flunked out.

Look, I'm just spitballing here. I think the therapy whale theory is probably correct. I'm just arguing that its observed behaviour does not rule out military training.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:58 PM   #125
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I bet we won't be seeing this quotation much in future reports:

Quote:
- Putin has been directly involved with training the whales, according to the Russian researchers I’ve been in contact with.
Whale researcher: - Putin has been directly involved in training the whales

ETA: And Childlike Empress showed us the photos!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 8th May 2019, 10:01 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Maybe that was natural behaviour that they were unable to train it to stop doing. Maybe that's why it flunked out.

Look, I'm just spitballing here. I think the therapy whale theory is probably correct. I'm just arguing that its observed behaviour does not rule out military training.

No, you're right. I know absolutely nothing about the Russian Navy. It's possible that they train whales to work with disadvantaged children.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th May 2019, 11:17 PM   #127
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There's also the Norwegian who visited the therapy facility in 2008 saying that the tricks performed by 'Hvaldimir' are similar to the ones he witnessed in Russia: New theory ties whale to therapy (News in English, Many 7, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 04:49 AM   #128
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From NRK.no:

Quote:
Tidligere journalist i Fiskeribladet og eks-konsul i Murmansk, Morten Vikeby, kom tirsdag med teorien om at hvithvalen som dukket opp utenfor Finnmark i slutten av april er en russisk terapihval.
– Jeg kjente igjen bevegelsene til hvithvalen fra det anlegget vi laget sak om terapihvalen «Semjon» ved Kvitsjøen i 2008, sier Vikeby.
Den tidligere journalisten mener at bevegelsesmønstret til hvithvalen tilsier at den ikke er en trussel mot omgivelsene.
– Poenget var å vise at det her nødvendigvis ikke er et dyr som er kommet hit med en ond hensikt.
«Gåten Hvaldimir» får inntil videre gjøre som han vil (NRK, May 8, 2019)

My translation:
Quote:
On Tuesday, former journalist at Fiskeribladet and ex-consul in Murmansk, Morten Vikeby, put forth the theory that the beluga whale that appeared on the coast of Finnmark in late April, is a Russian therapy whale.
- I recognized the moves of the beluga whale from the facility where we reported about the therapy whale "Semjon" at Lake Kvit in 2008, says Vikeby.
The former journalist thinks that the beluga whale's pattern of movements shows that it is not a threat to its surroundings.
- My point was to show that this isn't necessarily an animal that came here with bad intentions.
For the time being, the "enigma Hvaldimir" is allowed to do what he wants

By the way, he also says that he was misinterpreted: He thinks that Hvaldimir and Semjon are two different beluga whales. Semjon had scars after a fight with sealions (I think it was); Hvaldimir doesn't, but they behave and move the same way, which makes him think that Hvaldimir comes from the same facility and was trained in the same way to perform the same job as Semjon.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:05 AM   #129
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This may have been addressed already, but has any nation or private entity claimed that this was their missing whale? I mean, a therapy whale would be noticed if missing, and trainers would recognize it quickly, like a pet owner recognizes their pet.
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:11 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This may have been addressed already, but has any nation or private entity claimed that this was their missing whale? I mean, a therapy whale would be noticed if missing, and trainers would recognize it quickly, like a pet owner recognizes their pet.
Unless there are so many facilities training so many whales they can't even tell when one's missing! "Comrade Olga, are you missing any assassinwhales? We think we have all ninety thousand of ours here at the Murderdome." "I cannot say, Comrade Boris, we sent many thousand whales against the White Walkers but the smoke effects were so dark we lost count of the survivors."
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:59 AM   #131
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No. So far, nobody, private entities or nations, has claimed ownership of Hvaldimir.
Again from the article that said that the whale didn't have any "bad intentions", «Gåten Hvaldimir» får inntil videre gjøre som han vil (NRK.no, May 8, 2019):

Quote:
Rømte «Hvaldimir» fra en treningsøkt?
Selv om det har kommet mange teorier om hvor «Hvaldimir» kommer fra, så er det ingen som har tatt kontakt med Fiskeridirektoratet og meldt ifra om at de savner en tam hvithval.
I starten ble det spekulert i om den sosiale hvithvalen stammet fra det russiske forsvaret, men i den siste tiden har det blitt påstått at den er en såkalt terapihval.
Forsker ved Havforskningsinstituttet, Martin Biuw, sier til deres nettside at hvithvalen mest sannsynlig har dukket opp i Norge fordi den er blitt skilt fra trenerne når de har trent ute i åpen sjø.
My translation:
Quote:
Did 'Hvaldimir' escape from a training excursion?
Even though there have been many theories about where 'Hvaldimir' comes from, nobody has contacted the Department of Fishing and reported that they a tame beluga whale is missing.
In the beginning, there were speculations that the sociable beluga whale came from the Russian Army, but lately it has been claimed that it is a so-called therapy whale.
Researcher at the Maritime Research Institute, Martin Biuw, says to their website that the beluga whale probably appeared in Norway because it was separated from its trainers when they were training at open sea.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:10 AM   #132
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When I google "whale Norway Russia" I get links like these:

Harness-wearing whale was 'trained by Russian military,' researchers say (CNN)
Whales trained by Russia's military may be harassing fishermen from NATO ally Norway (CBS)

If I add "whale Norway Russia therapy," there is nothing from these major distributors of news.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:48 AM   #133
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typical Russian honey-trap.
The whale makes you feel comfortable around him, makes you trust him and BOOM! once you've slept with him the blackmail starts.

Been there, done that.
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Old 9th May 2019, 12:18 PM   #134
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The Russian whale pee tape?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 12:58 PM   #135
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Don't tell Putin but I have been slacking a bit following serious news about and from Russia. Just did a round and there is nothing about this "event" at all. The only place where this seems to happen is outlets directed at "western" masses who are reading "Feindsender" (i.e. RT and Sputnik).

There's the story about the "whale prison" prominently covered by TASS over the last months, but while three Beluga's went missing it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the friendly mammal that showed up in Norway (no harnesses, no training of any kind).
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Old 9th May 2019, 03:24 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Again from the article that said that the whale didn't have any "bad intentions"
Well that's good at least. I've seen Orca, I know what these bastards are capable of when they cop an attitude.
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Don't tell Putin but I have been slacking a bit following serious news about and from Russia. Just did a round and there is nothing about this "event" at all. The only place where this seems to happen is outlets directed at "western" masses who are reading "Feindsender" (i.e. RT and Sputnik).

There's the story about the "whale prison" prominently covered by TASS over the last months, but while three Beluga's went missing it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the friendly mammal that showed up in Norway (no harnesses, no training of any kind).
Perhaps it was the one which was stuck in the River Thames and then found itself in Norway, having got tangled in harness detritus on the way.
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Old 9th May 2019, 06:23 PM   #138
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Whale meat again, don't know where, don't know when' - Verushka Lynn
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:58 PM   #139
dann
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Don't tell Putin but I have been slacking a bit following serious news about and from Russia. Just did a round and there is nothing about this "event" at all. The only place where this seems to happen is outlets directed at "western" masses who are reading "Feindsender" (i.e. RT and Sputnik).

There's the story about the "whale prison" prominently covered by TASS over the last months, but while three Beluga's went missing it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the friendly mammal that showed up in Norway (no harnesses, no training of any kind).

Those were the same that I found: RT and Sputnik + Norwegian news in English - and one from Deutsche Welle: Russian 'spy whale' may have provided therapy for children (May 8, 2019). But the others may be coming along now. One hour ago this one appeared from The Guardian: Mystery of the missing whale: is it a Russian spy or child therapist?.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 9th May 2019, 10:03 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Perhaps it was the one which was stuck in the River Thames and then found itself in Norway, having got tangled in harness detritus on the way.
I hadn't heard of Benny, but it doesn't appear to have been spotted since December, and it also wasn't affectionate enough to be considered a Russian spy.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:17 AM   #141
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As has been said, you'd have thought if this was a therapy whale that someone would have reported it missing. I can't imagine they're particularly cheap to train.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:35 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whale meat again, don't know where, don't know when' - Verushka Lynn
thanks for that!
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:59 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
As has been said, you'd have thought if this was a therapy whale that someone would have reported it missing. I can't imagine they're particularly cheap to train.

From the article in The Guardian:

Quote:
But the industry has been rocked this year by a national scandal over a so-called “whale jail” in Russia’s far east, where 11 orcas and 87 belugas were held captive in appalling conditions before being sold. Some newspapers called it a “concentration camp” for whales. The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, personally intervened in the situation.
Since then, admitting the loss of a whale would be more likely to attract unwanted attention from the media and officials.
“It’s a bad time to lose a whale,” said one Russian researcher, who asked not to be identified in order to speak candidly.
Glazov said that there could be a number of reasons not to go public about the lost whale.
“They may be scared of their bosses,” he said. “They may fear public attention. And they may be scared to make public what they were doing, if it’s a closed organisation with ties to the military.”
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 03:22 AM   #144
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The Times and The Hill Reporter mention "therapy" as a possible 'occupation', May 9, 2019:

‘Spy’ whale may have been used for therapy
WATCH: Russian ‘Spy’ Whale Who Defected To Norway Saves Woman’s Cell Phone
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:16 AM   #145
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Still nothing from CBS, NBC, CNN, BBC, NYT, Washington Post, USA Today etc., but at least msn.com are now onboard with the article from The Guardian: Mystery of the missing whale: is it a Russian spy or child therapist?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 10th May 2019, 06:01 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
From the article in The Guardian:

The Guardian is such a pathetic rag these days. As you can read in the several TASS articles about the topic I linked, three belugas DID escape and they lost one orca on a different occasion. That's openly discussed. And it were private people who tried to sell the animals to China, with the Russian state catching and stopping them and Putin later intervening. The plan is to release them into their natural environment these days, but the ice is still to thick.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:08 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The Guardian is such a pathetic rag these days. As you can read in the several TASS articles about the topic I linked, three belugas DID escape and they lost one orca on a different occasion. That's openly discussed. And it were private people who tried to sell the animals to China, with the Russian state catching and stopping them and Putin later intervening. The plan is to release them into their natural environment these days, but the ice is still to thick.

But that is not at all a good story unless the guys who 'jailed' the whales are employed by Putin!

By the way, Hvaldimir was the topic of another episode of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, but apparently he also hasn't heard about therapy whales yet: Meanwhile: Mean-Whale: Well-Meaning Whale:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:56 PM   #148
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The major American media outlets still don't seem to be interested in correcting the impression that they gave their audiences of the "Russian spy whale", but at least Hvaldimir has now got his own Wikipedia page.
(He should have kept that smart phone so he could have looked it up himself!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:43 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Don't tell Putin but I have been slacking a bit following serious news about and from Russia. Just did a round and there is nothing about this "event" at all. The only place where this seems to happen is outlets directed at "western" masses who are reading "Feindsender" (i.e. RT and Sputnik).

You might be interested in these stories from NRK.no. They are not about Hvaldimir, but they make it so very obvious why everybody jumped to the conclusion that it was a Russian spy whale:

Quote:
I forbindelse med opprustning av etterretning mot Russland, har amerikanske familier for første gang bosatt seg i Vardø. – Det er ikke god norsk politikk, mener oberstløytnant Tormod Heier.
Amerikanske familier har flyttet til Vardø: – Vil provosere Russland (NRK, May 10, 2019)
My translation:
As part of the buildup of intelligence against Russia, American families have settled down in Vardø for the first time. - This isn't good Norwegian policy, Lieutenant Colonel Tormod Heier thinks.
American families have moved to Vardø: - Want to provoke Russia

Trusselen ingen vil snakke om (NRK, March 10, 2019)
The threat that nobody wants to talk about


ETA: It just occurred to me that "Vil provosere Russland" might mean, "Will/Is going to provoke Russia" instead of "Want to ...".
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 12th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #150
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The Wall Street Journal seems to have discovered the therapy connection:

Is That Whale a Russian Agent? The Beluga Won't Tell. (May. 11, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th May 2019, 11:35 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The major American media outlets still don't seem to be interested in correcting the impression that they gave their audiences of the "Russian spy whale", but at least Hvaldimir has now got his own Wikipedia page.
(He should have kept that smart phone so he could have looked it up himself!)
I think you're under the impression that the "impression that [American media outlets] gave their audiences" was that this story was anything other than lighthearted fringe fare; but you're likely mistaken about that. All of the articles I saw used scare-quotes around the term "spy whale" and focused largely on the animal's friendly antics.

CNN's article is a very good example of how the story was covered. In my opinion, there's absolutely nothing in the article that needs "correcting"; and nobody in the US seems to have cared enough about the story for American outlets to be following it closely.
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Old 12th May 2019, 11:44 AM   #152
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Has anyone checked out the inside of this whale? It could be carrying a surgically implanted bomb, maybe even a nuclear weapon! Somebody should take a geiger counter out to this whale, it might go off the charts!
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Old 12th May 2019, 01:41 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The Wall Street Journal seems to have discovered the therapy connection:

Is That Whale a Russian Agent? The Beluga Won't Tell. (May. 11, 2019)
So ply the whale with the appropriate amount of White Russians and Beluga caviar and she'll divulge her whale tale?
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Old 12th May 2019, 02:09 PM   #154
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Yes, I'm sure she'll spout everything!
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Old 12th May 2019, 02:27 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think you're under the impression that the "impression that [American media outlets] gave their audiences" was that this story was anything other than lighthearted fringe fare; but you're likely mistaken about that. All of the articles I saw used scare-quotes around the term "spy whale" and focused largely on the animal's friendly antics.

CNN's article is a very good example of how the story was covered. In my opinion, there's absolutely nothing in the article that needs "correcting"; and nobody in the US seems to have cared enough about the story for American outlets to be following it closely.

I disagree. Both the article that you link to and the other CNN article with the pun-free title, Harness-wearing whale was 'trained by Russian military,' researchers say, rely heavily on Wiig and Biuw, who cast suspicion on the Russian Navy:

Quote:
Wiig believes the whale came from Murmansk, Russia, and was trained by the Russian navy. The navy has "been known to train belugas to conduct military operations before," he said, "like guarding naval bases, helping divers, finding lost equipment."
CNN has contacted the Russian authorities for comment.
Martin Biuw, a marine mammal researcher at Norway's Institute of Marine Research, agreed with Wiig, telling CNN: "The fact that it's a trained animal is undoubtable."
(...)
Such training, he said, "is not conducted by researchers or anyone in Norway or Greenland. Researchers there do not use harnesses."
Biuw stressed that any statement on the whale's intended purpose would be "pure speculation," but added: "We know that the Russian military during the Cold War were training belugas to sniff out mines or old torpedoes."
In 2017, the Murmansk Sea Biology Research Institute trained beluga whales, dolphins and seals for military roles, the Siberian Times reported.

The implication is that since researchers don't use harnesses like this one, it's probably the Russian Navy. It is still called "pure speculation", but ...
Defected Russian spy whale still seems to be a better story than escaped children's therapy whale.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th May 2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 12th May 2019, 02:31 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Has anyone checked out the inside of this whale? It could be carrying a surgically implanted bomb, maybe even a nuclear weapon! Somebody should take a geiger counter out to this whale, it might go off the charts!

More like plastic explosives:
Whale found dying off coast of Norway with 30 plastic bags in its stomach (The Telegraph - and it's not Hvaldimir!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th May 2019, 03:30 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Whale meat again, don't know where, don't know when' - Verushka Lynn
thanks for that!

I didn't get it till now!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 12:35 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I disagree. Both the article that you link to and the other CNN article with the pun-free title, Harness-wearing whale was 'trained by Russian military,' researchers say, rely heavily on Wiig and Biuw, who cast suspicion on the Russian Navy:



The implication is that since researchers don't use harnesses like this one, it's probably the Russian Navy. It is still called "pure speculation", but ...
Defected Russian spy whale still seems to be a better story than escaped children's therapy whale.
I think by now it's indisputable that the reasons for suspecting the Russian Navy as given were perfectly valid. The "therapy whale" explanation replaces it because it fits better, not because any of the evidence for the Navy angle was discredited. In fact, the supporting evidence for both is really quite similar, coming primarily from past Russian domestic news stories in both cases.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:32 AM   #159
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No, they weren't valid at all, which is why I objected to them from the beginning. The behaviour of the whale didn't correspond to what would be expected from an animal trained for military purposes. It's behaviour would immediately have exposed cameras, weapons, whatever, fastened to its harness. It does discredit "the Navy angle."
That it had to be trained by the Russian Navy was nothing but paranoid cold-war thinking.
And the two articles I linked to above will tell you why they're paranoid ...
I think you referred to yourself as an army brat in another thread so you can't be unaware of what something like that implies. Neither are the Norwegians, apparently.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 11:35 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, they weren't valid at all, which is why I objected to them from the beginning. The behaviour of the whale didn't correspond to what would be expected from an animal trained for military purposes. It's behaviour would immediately have exposed cameras, weapons, whatever, fastened to its harness. It does discredit [i]"the Navy angle."
By what metric, not expected? The articles I linked to established that the Navy was training cetaceans for things like inspecting port infrastructure and locating lost objects on the sea floor. In other words, the whales were intended to be used only in friendly seas by Navy personnel. Why would they have needed to keep the cameras they were wearing hidden? Or are you still fixated on the notion that these animals were intended to sneak into foreign ports and use the cameras to obtain secret footage? None of the articles I linked supported such a use.
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