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Old 3rd May 2019, 06:34 AM   #201
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The fact that their views are extreme, if not outright murderous, doesn't excuse using violence against those that hold such views.

Why do you think they need an excuse?
Would an omelette be OK?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 06:40 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm not concerned, I'm more.....mildly amused at your efforts. What have you achieved up to now to halt this "rise of white Christian supremacy and xenophobia" by writing sweary words on the internet and declaring your disdain of Nazi's and Nazi paraphernalia?

Would you have a different opinion if it wasn't a question of declaring disdain of Nazis but of explaining to people who think that National Socialism is just an opinion what National Socialism is actually about?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd May 2019, 06:48 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Would you have a different opinion if it wasn't a question of declaring disdain of Nazis but of explaining to people who think that National Socialism is just an opinion what National Socialism is actually about?
The quote, that you are referring to, doesn't contain an opinion. It is an expression of mild amusement followed by a question, so I'm not sure what you are asking me?

Who are the people who think that National Socialism is just an opinion?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 07:21 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You are responding to me sure in the knowledge that I'm condoning Nazis and hate speech, and all the while I'm failing to acknowledge the emotional suffering that many may suffer from somebody espousing Nazi views. That would be strong position to argue from if you hadn't completely made it all up. How could you possibly arrive at those conclusions from what I wrote?

Can I attempt to clarify things?

I'm interested to know why you and others herein condone violence against those who hold different views to you? It seems that you, in particular, have some sort of scale in play, based on how extreme those views are. Does that sound right?

An egg or two and the theft of personal property is in order. Does that sound right too? You're not too happy about physical violence so that's a plus, although you don't outright condemn it

At what point does the egg and theft come in to play? Is it right off the bat or maybe after some discourse? Do you up the anti until the other person changes their opinion to something more agreeable?

I've no time for politics of any colour and can't see the difference, for example, between antifa and nazi's. I will admit to a very naive view of the politcal spectrum, so perhaps I'm not your target audience. I did notice some pretty tough "speaking" in your response to me; should I expect a literal egging or is it a literal punch in the chops as you try to educate me?
To help out with your "and can't see the difference, for example, between antifa and nazi's."

The Nazis are the ones that want me killed, the Antifa don't.

You may not be in a group of citizens that the nazis want to kill so for you it may not seem much a difference as neither Nazis nor Antifa want to kill you but for me it seems a pretty big difference.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 07:50 AM   #205
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Assault is assault is assault. Which is to say, while we may recognize that different degrees of assault may merit different degrees of consequence, it does not mean that any degree of assault should be tolerated. A man who beaned an egg at his wife because she burned the roast would be guilty of domestic violence. People who commit domestic violence should not get a free pass. Neither should people who commit political violence. But as we see repeatedly on this forum, there are plenty of people who think that political violence is okay, as long as it's their politics that are committing the violence.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 07:57 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is it? Doesn't seem to be the case in the UK at least, we used to see mainstream politicians being egged, custard pie d and so on quite regularly.
We haven't seen it in the States for decades, really. Online, it seems to be gaining traction as the 'new' way to deal with white supremacists. And that's the part I'm concerned about. No matter the new haircut you try to slap on it, it is advocating starting a physical confrontation that is likely to escalate, and quickly. Is that really what we should be egging on?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:02 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I am glad he was hurt, maybe he will learn something from it and stop parading round in Nazi regalia.
This sums up pretty neatly what the problem is with the egg-em-all crowd. The guy who was hurt wasn't parading around in anything. Just walking with his kid on the side of the road. No swasticakas, not any flavor of nazi as far as we know, nothing at all.

But what do you say you see again? You're glad he was hurt, you say? Because you can just feeeeel that he was down low a nazi because someone egged him?

This really is a scary post.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:06 AM   #208
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You find violence acceptable against those with whom politically disagree is becoming the go-to strawman in these discussions, no matter how many times it's clarified.

Do you think that opposing ISIS is the same thing as opposing all Muslims? Probably not. That's an obvious category error. The same fallacy is committed when one tries to lump the supporters of ethnic cleansing in with the broader category of "political opponents" and say that one supports egging/punching the latter when they are clearly only advocating it for the former. If you're doing this, please stop lying.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:09 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I really, honestly could not care less. The impact of both amounts to zero.
Advocacy of ethnic genocide does not "amount to zero." It has produced horrifying results in the past, it is still happening today, and it will happen in the future.

You are displaying a level of ignorance that is as embarrassing as it is horrifying.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:17 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You find violence acceptable against those with whom politically disagree is becoming the go-to strawman in these discussions, no matter how many times it's clarified.

Do you think that opposing ISIS is the same thing as opposing all Muslims? Probably not. That's an obvious category error. The same fallacy is committed when one tries to lump the supporters of ethnic cleansing in with the broader category of "political opponents" and say that one supports egging/punching the latter when they are clearly only advocating it for the former. If you're doing this, please stop lying.
This is exactly what I have been saying. Actual, gassing, genocidal nazis are pretty rare. White power punks who adopt a swastika are pretty common. But I think a lot of posters are wrongly associating the former with the latter.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:19 AM   #211
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Sometimes slopes are actually slippery

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I am glad he was hurt, maybe he will learn something from it and stop parading round in Nazi regalia.
This is a finely distilled example of one of the dangers.

As Thermal points out, we see no evidence whatsoever this guy has anything to do with nazis. So far as we know, he's an ordinary member of society taking a walk in the park with his young daughter. Yet here in a milieu that assigns great value to facts/evidence, a smart person like you assumes he's a nazi and celebrates the assault.

Sometimes slopes are actually slippery. In another thread, a member who advocated punching nazis clarified that only nazis deserve this treatment. But when pressed, ordinary bigots were added to the list of punchables.

In another thread, it was suggested that a person just being in the proximity of protesting nazis on a city street, even when that person is not a nazi, not a participant in the protest, is asking for it.

This is a dangerous mindset.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:22 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
To help out with your "and can't see the difference, for example, between antifa and nazi's."

The Nazis are the ones that want me killed, the Antifa don't.

You may not be in a group of citizens that the nazis want to kill so for you it may not seem much a difference as neither Nazis nor Antifa want to kill you but for me it seems a pretty big difference.
You're too late it's already been explained to me but thank you very much for taking the time.

I'm impressed that you have survived the many attempts that the Nazi's have made on your life and I hope you continue to do so.

I don't know what group of citizens I'm in and I'm not particularly concerned either way. I think, like yourself, I'll be okay.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:27 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Advocacy of ethnic genocide does not "amount to zero." It has produced horrifying results in the past, it is still happening today, and it will happen in the future.

You are displaying a level of ignorance that is as embarrassing as it is horrifying.
Yes, I know. I admitted as much, myself, earlier. Please don't be embarrassed on my behalf. I could never be as switched on or as right on as you, so I won't even try.

"Horrifying"? Do get over yourself.

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Old 3rd May 2019, 08:32 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yeah, makes no difference whether he ran or not from a guy with assault convictions.

“You start it, you finish it.” Lol Yeah, even if I had grown up on the wrong side of the tracks, a street fightin man, I would hope to have abandoned that kind of machismo.
So you have the kind of machismo that throws eggs from a distance and runs away?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:19 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Advocacy of ethnic genocide does not "amount to zero." It has produced horrifying results in the past, it is still happening today, and it will happen in the future.

You are displaying a level of ignorance that is as embarrassing as it is horrifying.
Need a safe space?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:27 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Yes, it is his isn't it? It was taken off of him without his agreement wasn't it?
No - not in this particular case. Per the video he appears to drop it in favor of chasing and tackling the egger, and then after he sprints away when others come to assist the egger, somebody picks it up off the ground where it was abandoned.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:36 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No - not in this particular case. Per the video he appears to drop it in favor of chasing and tackling the egger, and then after he sprints away when others come to assist the egger, somebody picks it up off the ground where it was abandoned.
That seems to be a more accurate description of the events to be honest. Having said that, his flag is torn from the flag pole (you seem to have missed that bit) and is not returned to him so we can add damage to personal property too.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:38 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
In what relevant ways are they different?
The level of power they wield, the level and quantity of their military equipment, their level of organization, control of the cultural zeitgeist, governmental control, percentage of the population, among many others.

Thinking you are fighting the same fight that was fought in ww2 downright offensive get over yourself you are picking on neckbeards grumbling about "those people" not a well armed and organized force.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:41 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Why is it that this dishonest framing gets repeated over and over again?
Because we have folks saying a certain opinion should let people throw things at you. At best that is childish at worst it is evidence that we just want someone to pick on.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:42 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I found the problem.

The nazis are the ones who advocate ethnic genocide. Antifa are the ones who oppose it. Hope that clears things up for you.
Two people with opinions.

Still don't see how one is no longer human and shouldn't be protected by assault laws.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 09:47 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
To help out with your "and can't see the difference, for example, between antifa and nazi's."

The Nazis are the ones that want me killed, the Antifa don't.

You may not be in a group of citizens that the nazis want to kill so for you it may not seem much a difference as neither Nazis nor Antifa want to kill you but for me it seems a pretty big difference.
Actually I am. I simply understand that silencing and dehumanizing people doesn't work, and only makes the situation worse.

I mean look at how that affected you. Do you think doing it back will make them feel different? Or will it do the same thing it did to you, make you angry, make you organize and make you fight.

The only way to deny that outcome is to convince yourself they are not human, and therein won't have your same reaction. Which you are doing by steps.

Personally I prefer hearing the word ****** over organized gangs of pissed off white supremacists, but hey I'm funny like that.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:32 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That seems to be a more accurate description of the events to be honest. Having said that, his flag is torn from the flag pole (you seem to have missed that bit) and is not returned to him so we can add damage to personal property too.
Meh. This wasn't a flag on a pole in somebody's front yard on private property that somebody trespassed to steal or vandalize. It was brought into public to be used for speech purposes; and when it was left laying on the public sidewalk, it was picked up and used for someone else's speech purposes. If it had been ripped out of his hands I would say that's not right; but he dropped it. And it wasn't like he dropped it and was immediately and obviously reaching for it when it was quickly snatched away. He left it behind and ran away. In a circumstance like that - hey, finders keepers, I don't really care.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:40 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Meh. This wasn't a flag on a pole in somebody's front yard on private property that somebody trespassed to steal or vandalize. It was brought into public to be used for speech purposes; and when it was left laying on the public sidewalk, it was picked up and used for someone else's speech purposes. If it had been ripped out of his hands I would say that's not right; but he dropped it. And it wasn't like he dropped it and was immediately and obviously reaching for it when it was quickly snatched away. He left it behind and ran away. In a circumstance like that - hey, finders keepers, I don't really care.
I'll have to remember that. If someone attacks me and I temporarily drop something while getting ganged up on, it becomes public property. Good to know.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:41 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Meh. This wasn't a flag on a pole in somebody's front yard on private property that somebody trespassed to steal or vandalize. It was brought into public to be used for speech purposes; and when it was left laying on the public sidewalk, it was picked up and used for someone else's speech purposes. If it had been ripped out of his hands I would say that's not right; but he dropped it. And it wasn't like he dropped it and was immediately and obviously reaching for it when it was quickly snatched away. He left it behind and ran away. In a circumstance like that - hey, finders keepers, I don't really care.
If I'm ever in your company I'll be sure not to drop anything!

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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:45 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'll have to remember that. If someone attacks me and I temporarily drop something
Not just "something". Specifically speech materials - flyers, posters, banners, signs, flags, etc. When you bring them into public and then leave them in some random public place that isn't designated for installing things like that, then yes, you must accept the possibility that they may be appropriated for counter-speech purposes.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:48 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not just "something". Specifically speech materials - flyers, posters, banners, signs, flags, etc. When you bring them into public and then leave them in some random public place that isn't designated for installing things like that, then yes, you must accept the possibility that they may be appropriated for counter-speech purposes.
This is a citable legal distinction or more one of those feelings?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:51 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Not just "something". Specifically speech materials - flyers, posters, banners, signs, flags, etc. When you bring them into public and then leave them in some random public place that isn't designated for installing things like that, then yes, you must accept the possibility that they may be appropriated for counter-speech purposes.
What if I bean eggs at you until you drop your printed speech and retreat? Then can I legitimately appropriate your stuff? Or is your rule only applied to "nazis"?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:53 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is a citable legal distinction or more one of those feelings?
It's my observation of reality. Does the video itself not demonstrate its truth?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 10:59 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What if I bean eggs at you until you drop your printed speech and retreat? Then can I legitimately appropriate your stuff? Or is your rule only applied to "nazis"?
Or what if like a thousand anti-nazi ninjas all start egging you at once until your entire self is so soaked with egg and slippery that you lose purchase on the banner and slips from your grip despite your best concerted efforts to hold onto it? Does that still count as dropping it? Huh????
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:00 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
If I'm ever in your company I'll be sure not to drop anything!

Especially the soap
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:04 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's my observation of reality. Does the video itself not demonstrate its truth?
Feeling, then. Gotcha.

The video shows petty criminals committing petty crimes. If that is your truth, you are advocating...what, exactly?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:04 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's my observation of reality. Does the video itself not demonstrate its truth?
I'm not sure your appeal to "reality" helps your case much.

You're arguing that it's okay to drive people off with violence, and appropriate any possessions you force them to leave behind in the process. That may be "reality" in the same sense that it's reality that if someone threatens a cashier at gunpoint and takes all the money out of the register, the money is effectively "theirs". But most people would find such a result intolerable, and would not recognize the robber's possession as legitimate. They'd want the robber punished, and the victim made whole again.

What you're condoning here is robbery. Because "nazis" and "reality" and whatever other crap you need to tell yourself to justify political violence as a cover for straight-up crime.

And this is why I don't condone political violence even against Nazis. Because first we get the "but they're Nazis!" excuse, and then comes this ****.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:26 AM   #233
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Just to update everyone:
I have been reading all the various efforts of de-radicalization and so far I have not found any techniques which include abuse, and certainly none that mention egg throwing. The Germans seem to have an interesting program where they don't really tackle the extremist views, but focus on job and career programs in order to address underlying socio-economic factors of radicalization.

Would anyone advocating assault as an effective method of combating radicalization care to share successful programs with such practices?
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:38 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're arguing that it's okay to drive people off with violence, and appropriate any possessions you force them to leave behind in the process.
Firstly, I've already established that I don't agree that throwing an egg at someone is necessarily an act of violence. But regardless: the person in that video did not drop the flag because he was "violently egged", and neither did the egging "drive him off". He chose to drop the flag because he chose to respond to the egging not by running away, but by confronting, punching, tackling etc the egger, and he decided he wanted both his hands free to do that. Engaging in this historical revisionism to defend the egged nazi as a victim of "violent robbery" is repugnant.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:42 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Feeling, then. Gotcha.

The video shows petty criminals committing petty crimes. If that is your truth, you are advocating...what, exactly?
That egging a nazi isn't a shameful act.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:44 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Firstly, I've already established that I don't agree that throwing an egg at someone is violence. But regardless: the person in that video did not drop the flag because he was "violently egged", and neither did the egging "drive him off". He chose to drop the flag because he chose to respond to the egging not by running away, but by confronting, punching, tackling etc the egger, and he decided he wanted both his hands free to do that. Engaging in this historical revisionism to defend the egged nazi as a victim of "violent robbery" is repugnant.
Quote:
violence - the unlawful exercise of physical force or intimidation by the exhibition of such force.
Throwing an egg so that it breaks and its contents cover the target sure sounds like physical forces at work with intimidation also in the mix.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:47 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That egging a nazi isn't a shameful act.
Great. Let's get that in the school curriculum under 'problem solving strategies' asap. Or maybe just teach by example, right? You've convinced me.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:48 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Firstly, I've already established that I don't agree that throwing an egg at someone is necessarily an act of violence.
Ah. I missed that. Thanks for drawing my attention to the poisoned tree that's dropping all the poisoned fruit.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:49 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Throwing an egg so that it breaks and its contents cover the target sure sounds like physical forces at work with intimidation also in the mix.
No - nobody is "intimidated" by being hit with an egg, nor are they intended to be. The point is humiliation. There's even an idiom in English - "to have egg on one's face". This idiom references egging, and it describes a state of being humiliated, not intimidated.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 11:55 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You're too late it's already been explained to me but thank you very much for taking the time.



I'm impressed that you have survived the many attempts that the Nazi's have made on your life and I hope you continue to do so.



I don't know what group of citizens I'm in and I'm not particularly concerned either way. I think, like yourself, I'll be okay.
Thankfully Nazis haven't been in power for sometime so they haven't been able to kill millions of our fellow citizens for sometime. I'm happy about that and I'd like that to remain the case.
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