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Old 11th June 2019, 12:53 PM   #3001
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
@Checkmite
Crickets. Lots of them in this thread. By all means, quote anything I've posted that justifies your fact-challenged bs.
Your post here:

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Sometimes slopes are actually slippery. Your slope is flat-out greased.

Nazis. Ordinary bigots. People on the internet who disagree with you. Egg the bastards!
This expressly implies that you view "ordinary bigots" as a step down the "flat-out greased" slippery slope from nazis. If you believe that it's actually okay to condemn them with the same voracity, their inclusion in this argument of yours as a point on a grade makes no sense.
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Old 11th June 2019, 12:57 PM   #3002
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The reason for the scare quotes is because that's your self-serving interpretation.

You misspelled "I'm ignoring his established posting history" there. I'm assuming hyperbole, because he has a history of hyperbole for emphasis, as do many other posters here. Unfortunately, the charity principle is not nearly so common.

Quote:
fact-challenged



That's a good one.

Here, since you've missed or forgotten the last three years of US political activity, have some facts. In fact, have some more facts.

Are those enough facts for you? If not, here are even more facts. Oh what the hell, here's still more facts, and yet even more facts.

The facts are that Trump is a racist, blatantly and unambiguously, and that Trump voters supported him predominantly because of racism.

Oh wait, looks like I found some more facts, imagine that; and those facts are related to a whole bunch more facts.

The facts are that white supremacist terrorism is a growing threat in this country, and the government has consistently downplayed that threat, because Trump and the GOP know that is the side their bread is buttered on. The fact that they elected and support the openly racist Steve King should be plenty of evidence of that fact.

And the range of denialism and dismissal evidenced by this thread and related threads plays right into the hands of the white supremacists and makes certain people into unwitting (and even witting, in a few notable cases) dupes and "useful idiots".
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Old 11th June 2019, 01:36 PM   #3003
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Seriously, you're invoking Nixon's "Great Silent Majority"? A direct appeal to bigoted, reactionary "Southern Strategy" conservativism at the height of the Civil Rights and Vietnam War ear in order to support a demonstrable unjust and unnecessary war rife with crimes committed by troops and the government, engage in red-baiting and race-bating, and quash the Civil Rights movement.
Reactionary bigots engaging in race-bating and quashing the civil rights movement? Sounds like you're describing "Nazis"




Quote:
Who will do less childish and tantrum-prone things like running you over with cars or shooting up your church.
You know exactly who has proven themselves quite capable of running over pedestrians and shooting up churches. I would say it but I don't want to be accused of being "islamophobic" or some such nonesense.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:15 PM   #3004
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
You know exactly who has proven themselves quite capable of running over pedestrians and shooting up churches. I would say it but I don't want to be accused of being "islamophobic" or some such nonesense.
This rhetorical tack reveals more about you than those to whom you're attempting to defend Nazis.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:46 PM   #3005
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
This rhetorical tack reveals more about you than those to whom you're attempting to defend Nazis.
It's a novel argument, "Yes but Islamic terrorists do that too"

But it makes a perverted sense as an attack on liberals if one assumes all Muslims support terrorism.

Which, as you say, speaks volumes.
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:38 PM   #3006
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's a novel argument, "Yes but Islamic terrorists do that too"

But it makes a perverted sense as an attack on liberals if one assumes all Muslims support terrorism.

Which, as you say, speaks volumes.
Well, we have already heard that all trump voters are guilty and Carlson, farage, Peterson etc are all enablers and recruiters for nazis... so how long until all Muslims are considered to be part of the recruitment path for jihadis?

It’s the exact same (wrong ) logic being used by ukese, luchog and others.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #3007
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
<snip irrelevancy>
While I didn't follow every link, as best I can tell your post is entirely irrelevant to my point. The fact-challenge I refer to has to do with you not following the thread, and assigning words/concepts to people that are absurd.

Wipe off the self-righteous spittle and pay attention.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:00 PM   #3008
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Your post here:



This expressly implies that you view "ordinary bigots" as a step down the "flat-out greased" slippery slope from nazis. If you believe that it's actually okay to condemn them with the same voracity, their inclusion in this argument of yours as a point on a grade makes no sense.
Expressly implied my ass. Your level of dishonesty is something to behold.

Just because I don't believe in egging "ordinary bigots" (nor anyone else for that matter) doesn't mean I have any problem whatsoever condemning them. This concept is a figment of your fertile imagination.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:37 PM   #3009
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Hell, if this was the 19th century, charlatans like them would be sent out of the village sitting backwards on a horse covered in tar and feathers.
Covering a horse with tar and feathers is just wrong.
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:08 PM   #3010
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Just because I don't believe in egging "ordinary bigots" (nor anyone else for that matter) doesn't mean I have any problem whatsoever condemning them. This concept is a figment of your fertile imagination.
Yes but you are aware that people here who are okay with egging don't look at it the same way you do. They may not consider it an "extreme" form of violence fit only for the worst examples of mankind, but rather just an exceptionally annoying but otherwise harmless method of expressing condemnation.
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:09 PM   #3011
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If you egg a Nazi accurately on it's pointy little head, it's an egg noggin!!!
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:07 AM   #3012
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
The problem with you and other "progressives" is that you take your moral superiority as a given, and you also assume that you are safe in a 'majority' that thinks the same way. If you keep pushing your luck with your "eggings" and suchlike, you might find that there is something that was once referred to as "the silent majority", consisting of people less childish and tantrum-prone, more patient, stoic and forebearing than you brats, but who will only take so much of your ****.
The silent majority is a myth, and you right wingers have already been killing people for decades, so it's kind of hard for you to escalate. Instead, it's time to start reaping the whirlwind.
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:22 AM   #3013
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Covering a horse with tar and feathers is just wrong.
You're probably right - even without the tar: Large Glitter Horse Feathers
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:40 AM   #3014
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
In my view, this is simply how it has been for centuries. I think it's amusing that it only suddenly became a huge problem when it started happening to right wing extremists.
But that doesn't answer my question.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:45 AM   #3015
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
But that doesn't answer my question.
Yes it does. Your question began with "so" followed by a question that completely misunderstands my position. I attempted to present you with my actual position instead.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:58 AM   #3016
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes it does. Your question began with "so" followed by a question that completely misunderstands my position. I attempted to present you with my actual position instead.
If there was something wrong with "so", then I retract it.

I'll ask the question again, because it's still not clear to me:

In your view would anyone whose views induce such frustration by "the crowd" be eligible for egging?

It's entirely reasonable for your answer to be "no", by the way. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I simply don't see how saying that it's been this way for centuries answers this question.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:05 AM   #3017
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If there was something wrong with "so", then I retract it.

I'll ask the question again, because it's still not clear to me:

In your view would anyone whose views induce such frustration by "the crowd" be eligible for egging?

It's entirely reasonable for your answer to be "no", by the way. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I simply don't see how saying that it's been this way for centuries answers this question.
Again, you misunderstand my position. Nobody is eligible or ineligible for egging. It's an expression of frustration and disgust from the public. It's a time honored tradition.

Personally, I don't get upset when vile liars and bigots get food-stuffs thrown at them. I see it as a sign that there are still good people out there.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:16 AM   #3018
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Again, you misunderstand my position. Nobody is eligible or ineligible for egging. It's an expression of frustration and disgust from the public. It's a time honored tradition.
Do you disapprove of the egging of Nazis? If no, do you disapprove of the egging of bigots?

Quote:
Personally, I don't get upset when vile liars and bigots get food-stuffs thrown at them. I see it as a sign that there are still good people out there.
I'm not particularly upset about the egging either, but I am bothered by the idea that it's a good thing. I hope you can see the distinction.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:26 AM   #3019
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
What if it was a shoe instead of an egg? Would you understand that to be a condemnation?
Was that a joke?

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Or a cake? Or lettuce? Or tomatoes?

Are some people still pretending like this is a new thing?
Right, like murder. Murder's not a new thing. Why are people acting like it's that bad??
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:27 AM   #3020
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Do you disapprove of the egging of Nazis? If no, do you disapprove of the egging of bigots?
Not as an expression of public frustration and disgust, no. And no, I don't disapprove the egging of public figures who are bigots.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not particularly upset about the egging either, but I am bothered by the idea that it's a good thing. I hope you can see the distinction.
I can. The egging itself is neither good nor bad in my view. The expression of disgust for disgusting people is a good thing in my view. If it also humiliates them, it's even better. I don't see the slippery slope because, as I've stated, this isn't a new phenomenon, and there has been no slippery slope.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:31 AM   #3021
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Just because I don't believe in egging "ordinary bigots" (nor anyone else for that matter) doesn't mean I have any problem whatsoever condemning them. This concept is a figment of your fertile imagination.
It really is scary that even so-called skeptics can't tell the difference between the two. This sort of with-me-or-against-me mentality can definitely lead to violence, but unlike how their fantasies play out, it's likely to come back to bit them in the ass.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:38 AM   #3022
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From a purely pragmatic standpoint, I wonder if egging (and now milkshaking) of political enemies represents an escalation or deescalation of street violence in our politics.

The optimist in me hopes that these street agitators will be happy to stick to trying to physically humiliate (through egging or throwing milkshakes) their enemies and this could lead to less cases of goons in sports gear beating each other with sticks. This would be an improvement.

The pessimist in me thinks that egging will only inflame such confrontations and make them more frequent, especially since many may have much less hesitation throwing an egg than they would swinging a pipe.

If milkshaking or egging were to replace street brawls and sucker punching in our political dialogue, I would consider that an improvement. More likely being egged will just become a "first shot" that instigates more of these vicious brawls we've become accustomed to in the US.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:59 AM   #3023
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Is there any reason to think that they are more likely to react in that way to egging than to argumentation? A well-aimed argument hurts nazis much worse so do you actually think that that won't retaliate with violence in that case?!

Some people here seem to think that only ""eggings" and suchlike" will make nazis (or the alleged "the silent majority") violent:

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
The problem with you and other "progressives" is that you take your moral superiority as a given, and you also assume that you are safe in a 'majority' that thinks the same way. If you keep pushing your luck with your "eggings" and suchlike, you might find that there is something that was once referred to as "the silent majority", consisting of people less childish and tantrum-prone, more patient, stoic and forebearing than you brats, but who will only take so much of your ****.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:05 AM   #3024
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, I wonder if egging (and now milkshaking) of political enemies represents an escalation or deescalation of street violence in our politics.

The optimist in me hopes that these street agitators will be happy to stick to trying to physically humiliate (through egging or throwing milkshakes) their enemies and this could lead to less cases of goons in sports gear beating each other with sticks. This would be an improvement.

The pessimist in me thinks that egging will only inflame such confrontations and make them more frequent, especially since many may have much less hesitation throwing an egg than they would swinging a pipe.

If milkshaking or egging were to replace street brawls and sucker punching in our political dialogue, I would consider that an improvement. More likely being egged will just become a "first shot" that instigates more of these vicious brawls we've become accustomed to in the US.
It's neither an escalation nor a de-escalation. It's something that exists parallel to street-brawls and has done so for centuries.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:15 AM   #3025
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's neither an escalation nor a de-escalation. It's something that exists parallel to street-brawls and has done so for centuries.
Murder's also been around for centuries. Not much of an argument.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:16 AM   #3026
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's neither an escalation nor a de-escalation. It's something that exists parallel to street-brawls and has done so for centuries.
Nonsense, just like they eggs you are provoking them into violence by challenging them. See the killing of Alan Berg for an example of this.

"A former producer of Berg's believed that he was on a "death list" both because he was Jewish and had challenged, on the air, the beliefs of members of the Christian Identity movement, who believed Jews were descended from Satan.[7] At the trial for his murder, prosecutors contended that he was singled out for assassination because he was a Jew and because his personality incurred the anger of white supremacists.[8][7][9][10] At the conspiracy trial of members of The Order, the white supremacist organization responsible for organizing the assassination, a founding member of the group, Denver Daw Parmenter, was asked why Berg was targeted. Parmenter responded that Berg "was mainly thought to be anti-white and he was Jewish".[11] Berg's remains were buried at the Waldheim Jewish Cemetery in Forest Park, Illinois.[12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:30 AM   #3027
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I had the pleasure of listening to an archived interview of “Count Dankula” as he appeared on the Alex Jones show back in May.

Conclusion: douchebag

Evidence:
Running on UKIP ticket
Calls himself a “successful comedian”
More immigrant bashing
Etc

Most importantly, he invoked the murder of Jo Cox, a Labour MP who was murdered by a far-right sicko, the type who listen to Alex Jones and shares the immigrant and media scapegoating narrative.

Dankula said that he feared that protestors would escalate from milkshakes to bricks, which further shows just how clueless he is. Milkshakes are much, much more effective vs racists than a brick would be. No one wants to physically hurt these idiots; ridicule is far more effective.

(With apologies that the above is dairy, not egg-specific)
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:56 AM   #3028
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nonsense, just like they eggs you are provoking them into violence by challenging them. See the killing of Alan Berg for an example of this.

"A former producer of Berg's believed that he was on a "death list" both because he was Jewish and had challenged, on the air, the beliefs of members of the Christian Identity movement, who believed Jews were descended from Satan.[7] At the trial for his murder, prosecutors contended that he was singled out for assassination because he was a Jew and because his personality incurred the anger of white supremacists.[8][7][9][10] At the conspiracy trial of members of The Order, the white supremacist organization responsible for organizing the assassination, a founding member of the group, Denver Daw Parmenter, was asked why Berg was targeted. Parmenter responded that Berg "was mainly thought to be anti-white and he was Jewish".[11] Berg's remains were buried at the Waldheim Jewish Cemetery in Forest Park, Illinois.[12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg
Just think.... if he hadn't simply challenged their beliefs but had egged them? How much worse it could've been. They could've killed him twice, I guess.

So much for the "engage them... debate them..." hypothesis.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:06 AM   #3029
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Just think.... if he hadn't simply challenged their beliefs but had egged them? How much worse it could've been. They could've killed him twice, I guess.

So much for the "engage them... debate them..." hypothesis.
That's pretty disingenuous; not only has no one suggested you try changing Nazi minds via debate (as has been already clarified more than once; it's about countering their propaganda for people they're trying to recruit) but egging wouldn't have changed anything.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:09 AM   #3030
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Just think.... if he hadn't simply challenged their beliefs but had egged them? How much worse it could've been. They could've killed him twice, I guess.

So much for the "engage them... debate them..." hypothesis.
Exactly he made them look like fools and had his name all over doing it. That earns serious retribution after all. And of course it was an interesting case on if the leader who was mad at him was actually inciting violence or not in those who murdered him.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:12 AM   #3031
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nonsense, just like they eggs you are provoking them into violence by challenging them. See the killing of Alan Berg for an example of this.

"A former producer of Berg's believed that he was on a "death list" both because he was Jewish and had challenged, on the air, the beliefs of members of the Christian Identity movement, who believed Jews were descended from Satan.[7] At the trial for his murder, prosecutors contended that he was singled out for assassination because he was a Jew and because his personality incurred the anger of white supremacists.[8][7][9][10] At the conspiracy trial of members of The Order, the white supremacist organization responsible for organizing the assassination, a founding member of the group, Denver Daw Parmenter, was asked why Berg was targeted. Parmenter responded that Berg "was mainly thought to be anti-white and he was Jewish".[11] Berg's remains were buried at the Waldheim Jewish Cemetery in Forest Park, Illinois.[12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg
For those interested: Berg was the inspiration for the film Talk Radio by Oliver Stone. Stone used to make good films back in the eighties.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:42 AM   #3032
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
While I didn't follow every link, as best I can tell your post is entirely irrelevant to my point.

That has to be one of the most pathetic attempts at evasion I have seen in quite some time. "I didn't bother to really read the citations, but I somehow magically know they're not relevant.

Quote:
The fact-challenge I refer to has to do with you not following the thread, and assigning words/concepts to people that are absurd.


Seriously? You spend the entire thread misrepresenting other posters and imputing motives, and this is the best you can come up with?


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Wipe off the self-righteous spittle and pay attention.

That's hilarious. You certainly do wear your irrelevance on your sleeve.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, I wonder if egging (and now milkshaking) of political enemies represents an escalation or deescalation of street violence in our politics.

https://www.history.com/topics/black...ntgomery-march
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero_race_riot_of_1951
https://www.britannica.com/event/Kent-State-shootings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_strike_of_1970
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

I think you're coming into this a bit late to worry about escalation of violence.

As has been pointed out by others, violent protest and non-violent protest, as well as violent and non-violent reactions to such, have gone hand-in-hand throughout history. The fact that one side is predominantly limiting their direct action "violence" to innocuous acts like egging and milkshaking (with a small number of exceptions), while the other side is consistently showing up to rallies and protest armed and intending to cause serious and lethal harm, should put a clear perspective on things. Unfortunately, for too many people it doesn't, and they only seem to be interested in making false-equivalency arguments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally
https://www.newsweek.com/patriot-pra...august-1171862
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archiv...t-prayer-logs/
https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/a...killing-people
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:46 AM   #3033
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's pretty disingenuous; not only has no one suggested you try changing Nazi minds via debate (as has been already clarified more than once; it's about countering their propaganda for people they're trying to recruit) but egging wouldn't have changed anything.
Hilited. You're wrong. The entire original defense of the no-true-nazi in the OP was that all he was doing was espousing his crap and that you don't mug people like that, you tear down their arguments. The theme repeats itself quite often.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:45 AM   #3034
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That has to be one of the most pathetic attempts at evasion I have seen in quite some time. "I didn't bother to really read the citations, but I somehow magically know they're not relevant.
That's not what he said, and that's not what evasion is.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited. You're wrong. The entire original defense of the no-true-nazi in the OP was that all he was doing was espousing his crap and that you don't mug people like that, you tear down their arguments. The theme repeats itself quite often.
Which does NOT translate into what you said. I repeat, for the umpteenth time, that it's not about convincing the Nazis. That is not the argument being made.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:48 AM   #3035
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
But that's not what's happening. Even within the broad category of voters, Trump supporters do not constitute "everyone whose votes don't align with your views"; and singling them out specifically (for egging or whatever) does not amount to proclaiming that "anyone" who didn't vote the same as you is fair game.
And that's basically the hypocrisy I am trying to point out to you.

Quote:
I did not, for instance, see luchog declaring that all Clinton or Sanders or Stein (whichever ones he personally didn't vote for) voters, or people who didn't vote at all, were valid targets for the same ire. And I certainly didn't see him extend it to encompass "Republican/conservative voters" generally; that is a mischaracterization you chose to add for whatever reason.
You are right, he did not. And I asked why earlier, Obama 2007, would not be included in that list, given the criteria. As for my extension into "Republican/conservative voters", last Gallup poll I saw had Trump approval at or near 90% for Republicans. If support for Trump = racist/bigot that deserves to be egged, is a 10% distinction really going to come into play?



Quote:
Further, the inclusion of Trump supporters isn't as arbitrary as the proclamation of a "slippery slope" attempts to portray it as; l?uchog specifically points to Trump's racist policies and statements as evidence that he is categorically racist, and his supporters generally do not disclaim or disapprove of those policies - just the opposite in fact. This is more than a simple casual or coincidental link with nazis, because racism underlies the entire nazi ideology and likewise motivated their policy when that group had political power. Now you may certainly personally disagree that Trump's policies are racist; however, as long as luchog (or Sideroxylon, or whomever) considers it true, then it is not "mission creep" or a "slippery slope" for them to put Trump and his supporters in the same bucket as Nazis where that bucket is "racism that needs to be fought against".
How so? If the group has spread from nazis, to 90% of Republicans, you don't see any issue at all, or any basis for those calling it out?


Quote:
I've already made clear in this thread that my opposition to Nazis is grounded in my opposition to white nationalism/supremacy. Nazi Germany engaged in genocide, but that was simply one thing they did as a result of their white nationalism, and had they not done that particular thing, my opinion of them today would not be any different - what made the Nazis "bad" was their racist ideology; and based on that reasoning, all white nationalist sympathizers, whether they walk around wearing swastika necklaces and literally saying "burn the (minorities)" in so many words or not, are "in the same category" as Nazis by virtue of sharing that important defining characteristic. So no, it's not a "slippery slope" to go from condemning one to also condemning the other; it's simple logical self-consistency.
So any racist or bigoted ideology is equivalent with nazis. And the individual can decide what level of bigotry, real or imagined, puts them on said list. And after, warrants the same level of 'condemning', which I would appreciate being defined since we are talking about egging with some of the same posters that think punching a nazi in the face is also an effective deterrent.

I keep hearing from you guys there are levels of condemnation, but then immediately retreating to dealing with them the same.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #3036
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That has to be one of the most pathetic attempts at evasion I have seen in quite some time. "I didn't bother to really read the citations, but I somehow magically know they're not relevant.
As Belz noted, you miss the point. By a country mile. Like, where's Foghorn Leghorn when you need him?

Your cites indeed appear to be relevant to the broader discussion. However, our little side bar here started with a poster expressing the desire for "many" other posters to be egged (or maybe shaked; can't be too careful with one's words here), me calling that out as slope slipping, and then you going off on a diatribe. That diatribe, and the one that followed, aren't relevant to the side bar.

It's as if you're on auto-pilot, never mind the actual words posted. Again, please pay better attention.

I too have many concerns about the 'adjacents', far more so than official neo-nazis even. They're the ones wielding power these days (e.g. the Bigot in Chief). I've constantly expressed withering criticism of the adjacents throughout my time on this forum. If this wasn't clear to you previously, hopefully I've remedied that, and you can get off that high horse now.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:00 AM   #3037
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
So any racist or bigoted ideology is equivalent with nazis. And the individual can decide what level of bigotry, real or imagined, puts them on said list. And after, warrants the same level of 'condemning', which I would appreciate being defined since we are talking about egging with some of the same posters that think punching a nazi in the face is also an effective deterrent.

I keep hearing from you guys there are levels of condemnation, but then immediately retreating to dealing with them the same.
Got it the not at all nazi white supremacists who are good folks and who supporting is not a character flaw. It is a shame to paint all white supremacists with the same brush.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:05 AM   #3038
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
As Belz noted, you miss the point. By a country mile. Like, where's Foghorn Leghorn when you need him?

Your cites indeed appear to be relevant to the broader discussion. However, our little side bar here started with a poster expressing the desire for "many" other posters to be egged (or maybe shaked; can't be too careful with one's words here), me calling that out as slope slipping, and then you going off on a diatribe. That diatribe, and the one that followed, aren't relevant to the side bar.

It's as if you're on auto-pilot, never mind the actual words posted. Again, please pay better attention.

I too have many concerns about the 'adjacents', far more so than official neo-nazis even. They're the ones wielding power these days (e.g. the Bigot in Chief). I've constantly expressed withering criticism of the adjacents throughout my time on this forum. If this wasn't clear to you previously, hopefully I've remedied that, and you can get off that high horse now.
But you can't simply criticize the entire republican party(or at least 90% of it) they can not all be supporting white supremacy because we have to view that as a marginal ideology and not main stream. Of course it is mainstream now so hence all the slippery slope problems of what white supremacists really count vs ones that are fine people and you can not call white supremacists.

For example Tucker Carlson, he clearly uses white supremacists as sources for the stories he brings up and about when we should allow Hispanics to move into our communities with out ever even voting on it or not. But you can't call him a white supremacists because he does not call himself one, no matter where his arguments come from and who claims him for one of their own. He is simply too popular to be labeled with the slur of white supremacists no matter what ideology he advances.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:23 AM   #3039
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
And that's basically the hypocrisy I am trying to point out to you.
This sentence doesn't make sense in context.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
You are right, he did not. And I asked why earlier, Obama 2007, would not be included in that list, given the criteria.
But the "why" doesn't matter to the specific argument, which is that it's dishonest to turn "Trump voters" into "anyone who votes differently than you". This is rhetorical trickery, intended to deliberately mischaracterize a situation where someone is singling out a group with an exclusive and defined characteristic, depicting it instead as some kind of blanket opposition that includes groups the person you're misrepresenting doesn't actually have a problem with.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
As for my extension into "Republican/conservative voters", last Gallup poll I saw had Trump approval at or near 90% for Republicans. If support for Trump = racist/bigot that deserves to be egged, is a 10% distinction really going to come into play?
It does if the criteria is "Trump supporter", not "conservative".

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
How so? If the group has spread from nazis, to 90% of Republicans, you don't see any issue at all, or any basis for those calling it out?
The group hasn't "spread". That's the whole point. It was always about the racism. Really, is white nationalism so wide a net that it's "hypocritical" or "spreading" or a "slippery slope" to go from jeering one white nationalist group to jeering another?


Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
So any racist or bigoted ideology is equivalent with nazis.
Equivalent with nazi ideology, yes.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
And the individual can decide what level of bigotry, real or imagined, puts them on said list.
That's literally how opinion works in humans, yes.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
And after, warrants the same level of 'condemning', which I would appreciate being defined since we are talking about egging with some of the same posters that think punching a nazi in the face is also an effective deterrent.


Obviously, people who feel that throwing an egg is an acceptable form of "expressing very strong disapproval" are going to do that. People who feel that punching someone in the face is acceptable, will do that. People who don't feel that either of those things are acceptable expressions, will do neither.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I keep hearing from you guys there are levels of condemnation
Funny; I somehow mistook that for the argument "you guys" were making.

There may well be "levels of condemnation"; but the metrics are bound to be different between people. For instance: I consider white nationalism to deserve an exceptionally high level of condemnation. I consider petty corruption to be deserving of a markedly lower level of condemnation. I do not consider different expressions of white nationalism to be deserving of different levels of condemnation from each other. This is something reasonable people can and will disagree with each other on.
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:35 PM   #3040
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This sentence doesn't make sense in context.

But the "why" doesn't matter to the specific argument, which is that it's dishonest to turn "Trump voters" into "anyone who votes differently than you". This is rhetorical trickery, intended to deliberately mischaracterize a situation where someone is singling out a group with an exclusive and defined characteristic, depicting it instead as some kind of blanket opposition that includes groups the person you're misrepresenting doesn't actually have a problem with.

It does if the criteria is "Trump supporter", not "conservative".

The group hasn't "spread". That's the whole point. It was always about the racism. Really, is white nationalism so wide a net that it's "hypocritical" or "spreading" or a "slippery slope" to go from jeering one white nationalist group to jeering another?
So nazi = white nationalist = Trump voter = 90% of Republicans is not a slope? If you see no issue with that than our view on things aren't something that can be bridged.

Your whole argument seems to be that I am saying your views are inconsistent and you are agreeing while calling me wrong. Yes, I know you are not grouping "anyone who votes differently than you". You are excluding and excusing those you ideologically agree with more (Democrats), while doing the opposite for Republicans.


Quote:
That's literally how opinion works in humans, yes.
Your descriptor for grouping - "advocate the marginalization and disenfranchisement of minorities". I have pointed to a specific politician, at a specific time, that matches your own description, and asked if all that voted for him should be condemned. This is not a mischaracterization, this is a straightforward question if your ideology is consistent.


Quote:
There may well be "levels of condemnation"; but the metrics are bound to be different between people. For instance: I consider white nationalism to deserve an exceptionally high level of condemnation. I consider petty corruption to be deserving of a markedly lower level of condemnation. I do not consider different expressions of white nationalism to be deserving of different levels of condemnation from each other. This is something reasonable people can and will disagree with each other on.
The hilite is where my issue is. If nazi = Republican, not based on any specific policy or the nuances involved in them, than I find that an unreasonable position. We can agree and disagree on the level of condemnation, but if the category expands to that point, is there really a reasonable level of discussion to be had?
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