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Old 14th May 2019, 02:44 AM   #161
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Don't you have anything substantial at all to contribute with?
Absolutely, yes.

Why do you ask?
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:26 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have the confidence to recognize that I have no need or desire whatsoever to use that kind of language with somebody I love. I don't need to humiliate her, to dominate her or tie her up, in or out of bed.
Needing that and taking pride in one's precious "ability" to do so speaks volumes about confidence, but it doesn't mean that one is bursting with it.
On the contrary, in my opinion.
It's not about what you need, it's about giving the other person what they need. Not being selfish is considered a plus in any kind of relationship.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:06 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Quote:
"What do they get out of it?"

"Well, here's what I get out it."

"Doesn't count!"
Do you have any more strawmen that you'd like to provide us with?
Perhaps you can clarify how that was a strawman?

Is it that you weren't asking "What do they get out of it?"? Because that was how I interpreted your original posts in this thread. You seemed to be interested in why people would like the sub/dom relationship. And answering that question with statistics really doesn't make much sense to me. If I ask someone why he likes something, I pretty much expect a description of his subjective experience of that thing, so Myriad's suggestion that you read what people in the BDSM community are saying if you really want to understand why they like it seems pretty obviously valid to me.

But in response to him, you did say that their relaying of their subjective experiences wasn't a useful tool to answer your question of why they like BDSM. Which response theprestige summed up with "Doesn't count". Again, I'm not seeing how that's summing up is a strawman either. It seems to me to be an accurate portrayal of your response.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:10 AM   #164
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So was it the tops who have brilles and the bottoms drumsticks, or the other way around?
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:24 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Perhaps you can clarify how that was a strawman?

Is it that you weren't asking "What do they get out of it?"? Because that was how I interpreted your original posts in this thread. You seemed to be interested in why people would like the sub/dom relationship. And answering that question with statistics really doesn't make much sense to me. If I ask someone why he likes something, I pretty much expect a description of his subjective experience of that thing, so Myriad's suggestion that you read what people in the BDSM community are saying if you really want to understand why they like it seems pretty obviously valid to me.
The impression I get from the attempt at neutral questioning is that the desired answer is something like "We're all screaming deviants who in a sane world, should be rounded up and re-educated that missionary only, straightforward, vanilla sex between two parties who love each other very much, with the lights off, eyes closed and a hole in the sheet is the only proper way to do it"

(Now, THAT is a strawman.)
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:40 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Perhaps you can clarify how that was a strawman?

It's a strawman in as far as his "quotations" aren't quotations at all but a very inept attempt at paraphrasing, i.e. strawmanning, what I wrote.

Quote:
Is it that you weren't asking "What do they get out of it?"? Because that was how I interpreted your original posts in this thread. You seemed to be interested in why people would like the sub/dom relationship. And answering that question with statistics really doesn't make much sense to me. If I ask someone why he likes something, I pretty much expect a description of his subjective experience of that thing, so Myriad's suggestion that you read what people in the BDSM community are saying if you really want to understand why they like it seems pretty obviously valid to me.

If by my original post you mean my first post, then, no, that wasn't at all what I asked.
1) I found arthwollipot's use of the word "just" peculiar;
2) I complained about the response to a question I had asked in another thread;
3) It annoyed me that a similar thing seemed to be happening here: The response to Thermal's post.
And as I've made clear several times by now, I actually have read "what people in the BDSM community are saying." I've quoted some of it and linked to it. And nobody has responded to that with anything but the usual consternation.

Quote:
But in response to him, you did say that their relaying of their subjective experiences wasn't a useful tool to answer your question of why they like BDSM. Which response theprestige summed up with "Doesn't count". Again, I'm not seeing how that's summing up is a strawman either. It seems to me to be an accurate portrayal of your response.

I'm pretty sure that "their relaying of their subjective experiences" wouldn't count as a valid answer if we were having a discussion about woo. But even in that situation I wouldn't respond with, "Doesn't count." I don't know if theprestige or you would.
There's nothing "accurate" about it. You and theprestige pretend that I reject everything without an argument for doing so. Doesn't happen.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:49 AM   #167
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I was very impressed with the powerful argument "it sounds like woo to listen to anyone who actually does this" used to dismiss my twenty years of BDSM experience and personal acquaintance with several pup players. By all means, lecture us on the things you don't know while we politely keep quiet on those things we have spent years doing.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:56 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thread crossover. Very interesting.
I haven't yet seen anybody in the BDSM community propose genocide or massacres, and I can't see why they would. You are probably confusing them with incel extremists. I don't think that the two groups have anything in common. I wouldn't mind anybody egging the latter.
Congratulations for missing the point entirely. I'm sure it took some measure of effort.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:58 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm pretty sure that "their relaying of their subjective experiences" wouldn't count as a valid answer if we were having a discussion about woo.
It would totally count as a valid answer. The question of what people get out of believing in woo or disseminating woo comes up a lot. Their account of what they get out it is an important part of the answer.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:08 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It would totally count as a valid answer. The question of what people get out of believing in woo or disseminating woo comes up a lot. Their account of what they get out it is an important part of the answer.
Yeah, this. The question isn't whether or not BDSM exists or not, but why people like it, and with respect to that question their subjective experiences are almost* the only useful answer.

*I suppose a sort of naturalist's approach to trying to understand their motivations by studying their behaviour might potentially offer answers as well.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:09 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not about what you need, it's about giving the other person what they need. Not being selfish is considered a plus in any kind of relationship.

I think that this is another example of what Ayako Black wrote (and I don't mean the consent part of it):

Quote:
We are so desperate to paint ourselves as consent-loving, happy, “normal” people ...
Why I left the BDSM community (The Daily Dot, Dec. 11, 2015)

Of course, it's about what you need! Which is why, in the BDSM relationship, you look for somebody who fulfills his/her need to play the part in your fantasy that you need him/her to play, and vice versa.
You idealize this relationship when you try to paint it as if it is an unselfish attempt to satisfy the needs of your partner. In that respect, it isn't very different from a 'vanilla' relationship: We are attracted to another person and hopefully the other person is attracted to us. We fulfill our own needs by satisfying our partner's needs, and doing so isn't unselfish since we tend to get pleasure from that aspect of the relationship as well.
Describing vanilla sex or love as unselfish is also an idealization, which I find to be as nauseating as Christian rock'n'roll. You saw it all the time in old-fashioned romance stories.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:12 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, this. The question isn't whether or not BDSM exists or not, but why people like it, and with respect to that question their subjective experiences are almost* the only useful answer.

*I suppose a sort of naturalist's approach to trying to understand their motivations by studying their behaviour might potentially offer answers as well.

Fortunately, Maria Marcus was able to go beyond that in her book.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:13 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's a strawman in as far as his "quotations" aren't quotations at all but a very inept attempt at paraphrasing, i.e. strawmanning, what I wrote.
Paraphrasing isn't strawmanning, and I'm pretty confident that no one confused those quotation marks as an attempt to suggest that those were your actual words, rather than just a paraphrasing.

If the paraphrasing doesn't accurately represent your viewpoint, then, yes, that could be a strawman, but just paraphrasing you doesn't equate to doing so inaccurately.



Quote:
If by my original post you mean my first post, then, no, that wasn't at all what I asked.
1) I found arthwollipot's use of the word "just" peculiar;
2) I complained about the response to a question I had asked in another thread;
3) It annoyed me that a similar thing seemed to be happening here: The response to Thermal's post.
And as I've made clear several times by now, I actually have read "what people in the BDSM community are saying." I've quoted some of it and linked to it. And nobody has responded to that with anything but the usual consternation.
Let's just be clear. Are you or aren't you intersted in the question "why do people like BDSM?"



Quote:
"Doesn't count." I don't know if theprestige or you would.
There's nothing "accurate" about it. You and theprestige pretend that I reject everything without an argument for doing so. Doesn't happen.
That you have an argument (though one that doesn't seem valid to me at all, for reasons that theprestige pointed out in the post of his I just replied to) doesn't mean you weren't saying that it doesn't count. His claim that you said those accounts of people's subjective experiences don't count as an explanation for why they enjoy what they do is accurate in spite of the fact that you have an argument for why you think they don't count.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:17 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was very impressed with the powerful argument "it sounds like woo to listen to anyone who actually does this" used to dismiss my twenty years of BDSM experience and personal acquaintance with several pup players. By all means, lecture us on the things you don't know while we politely keep quiet on those things we have spent years doing.

That is approximately what the astrologers told us in Denmark when we discussed astrology with them 25 years ago. Nobody is dismissing your experience. I'm saying that it's not an argument. And I disagree with your interpretation of your experience.
I don't see why you would "politely keep quiet," but that's up to you, of course.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:23 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was very impressed with the powerful argument "it sounds like woo to listen to anyone who actually does this" used to dismiss my twenty years of BDSM experience and personal acquaintance with several pup players. By all means, lecture us on the things you don't know while we politely keep quiet on those things we have spent years doing.

What are the non-anecdotal responses to 'why I like football' or 'why I like sprouts' questions, that's what I want to know.

I genuinely have no idea what format of answer would please the interlocutor.

Anecdotal is fine if you're asking why someone likes something, I think. In fact, I can't think of any other possible way to answer the question.

"Oh, noes, it's all anecdotal" is a bit weird. I wonder if the OP can suggest a protocol for a double blinded experiment, like they do in medicine.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:24 AM   #176
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Well, that was a rather bizarre set of posts there.

I'll pipe up and say that I've been into various forms of BDSM most of my life, and have been involved in the local BDSM community for a good chunk of that. Consent and negotiation are fundamental part of BDSM practice. Does this happen perfectly in every situation? No, of course not, that's not possible given that humans are not perfect. People make mistakes, people act like reprehensible bastards, and that's how people are. But the overwhelming majority of people who practice some form of BDSM are safe, are sane, and are careful about boundaries. This is a lot more complicated than certain posters have made it out to be.

As for the reasons someone may be involved, that varies as widely for BDSM as it does for literally everything else. Some are into it because they are just neurologically wired that way, they are wired to process certain types of pain of discomfort as pleasurable sensations. It's all about the endorphin rush. The exact same reason some people are into eating very spicy food, except that they combine the pain with sexual pleasure rather than gustatory pleasure.

Some are into it for the role playing, acting out the fantasies in their head with the aid of one or more partners; it's essentially LARPing with sex. Some are in it to feel like they've gained some aspect of control over their own lives, where they may feel powerless otherwise. Others who feel the burdens of power in their lives often cherish the feeling* of a complete and utter lack of responsibility, letting go and letting someone else be responsible for everything for a change.

*Please note I said feeling, the actual reality is a bit different. More on that later.

Yes, there are some who are in it for less than healthy reasons; but they generally find themselves quickly identified and ostracized by healthy communities (which is most of them). Some are there because they're control freaks (have known one or two of these), others because that's how they process their own trauma or mental issues. The former are generally shunned, the latter encouraged to get professional help.

Yes, people get hurt. As I noted, people do stupid things or make mistakes. That's part of being human. And an extremely small number of people have died because of that. But guess what, life has risks, and far more people die doing other non-essential things. Compare the per capita number of people who have died or been seriously injured during BDSM activities to the number of people who have died or been seriously injured during sporting activities, and there is no contest. A far greater percentage of people die or are injured participating in sports, especially the more extreme "adrenaline junkie" sort of sports. Yet you rarely hear the kind of ranting about extreme sports that you hear about extreme sex.

One thing that a lot of people don't understand is just how common paraphilias are. Someone earlier mentioned that thing like a light spanking or biting or tickling can't be considered paraphilias, but that's really not true. In fact, they are. Paraphilias range from mild to pathological; and nearly everyone has some sort of paraphilia, however mild. We've known that since at least Kinsey/Masters and Johnson; and the more research is done, the more obvious it is. The overwhelming majority of people have some activity, some fantasy, that involves a paraphilia of some sort. Not all of them are of the BDSM variety, but a huge number are. I can guarantee you know some, and often people you would least suspect are the most kinky.

As for the Dominance and Submission thing that so many ignorant people like to harp on, a common misconception of the relationship is over who is actually in control. While the power dynamic appears to be obvious and simple to an outside observer, it's anything but. In fact, the majority of control in the scene ("scene" being a term used by the BDSM community to refer to a particular activity session) belongs to the Submissive partner, who basically sets the stage, defines the limits, and holds final veto over any and all actions. The Sub decides when it starts and ends.

Not going to try pulling up references right now, since I'm at work and that would be inadvisable; and in any case, most of my references are in dead tree format, rather than electronic. And since certain posters appear to have no intention of relinquishing their misconceptions and prejudices, I doubt it would do any good anyway. And I'm getting the impression that, for some people in this forum, JAQing-off serves as their own personal paraphilia.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:26 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Paraphrasing isn't strawmanning, and I'm pretty confident that no one confused those quotation marks as an attempt to suggest that those were your actual words, rather than just a paraphrasing.

If the paraphrasing doesn't accurately represent your viewpoint, then, yes, that could be a strawman, but just paraphrasing you doesn't equate to doing so inaccurately.

Paraphrasing obviously doesn't = strawmanning, but it this case it was. So, no, it didn't represent my viewpoint.


Quote:
Let's just be clear. Are you or aren't you intersted in the question "why do people like BDSM?"

By now, I'm think I've answered it to my own satisfaction, but, yes, if somebody actually contributed with something - and I think that arthwollipot did - I would still be interested.

Quote:
That you have an argument (though one that doesn't seem valid to me at all, for reasons that theprestige pointed out in the post of his I just replied to) doesn't mean you weren't saying that it doesn't count. His claim that you said those accounts of people's subjective experiences don't count as an explanation for why they enjoy what they do is accurate in spite of the fact that you have an argument for why you think they don't count.

OK, if you can't see the difference between, "Doesn't count," and "I don't think that you're right because ...", so be it.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:39 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Paraphrasing obviously doesn't = strawmanning, but it this case it was. So, no, it didn't represent my viewpoint.
Alright, I'm trying to figure out which part was inaccurate.

You agree that you were asking why people are into BDSM, so "What do they get out of it?" Seems pretty accurate. And "Here's what I get out of it" seems like an accurate portrayal of Myriad's post. That leaves the final line.


Quote:
OK, if you can't see the difference between, "Doesn't count," and "I don't think that you're right because ...", so be it.
Okay so, if he had written:


"What do they get out of it?"

"Well, here's what I get out it."

"Doesn't count, because that's just an anecdote."

Would you consider that to be accurate?
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:40 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is approximately what the astrologers told us in Denmark when we discussed astrology with them 25 years ago. Nobody is dismissing your experience. I'm saying that it's not an argument. And I disagree with your interpretation of your experience.
I don't see why you would "politely keep quiet," but that's up to you, of course.
You just did it again a couple of posts up!

This is why nobody is going to waste their time on you.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:41 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
"Oh, noes, it's all anecdotal" is a bit weird. I wonder if the OP can suggest a protocol for a double blinded experiment, like they do in medicine.
I guess I can see one valid objection to the use anecdotes here. Maybe those anecdotes aren't representative of most people who are into BDSM. So if we are trying to understand the general case, the few people who write blog posts about it might give a skewed perspective.

They still would certainly be useful for understanding at least those people's reasons, though.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:43 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I guess I can see one valid objection to the use anecdotes here. Maybe those anecdotes aren't representative of most people who are into BDSM. So if we are trying to understand the general case, the few people who write blog posts about it might give a skewed perspective.

They still would certainly be useful for understanding at least those people's reasons, though.
No, whoever speaks of their own experience is wrong. Scroll up to see how that works.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:46 AM   #182
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Both this:

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's all about the endorphin rush. The exact same reason some people are into eating very spicy food, except that they combine the pain with sexual pleasure rather than gustatory pleasure.
And this:

Quote:
it's essentially LARPing with sex.
Are very well put.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:18 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, that was a rather bizarre set of posts there.

Thank you for your detailed post. I didn't know about the difference between the words scene and community, for instance.
I have heard the food analogy before, and it's is obviously used frequently, hence vanilla.
I love chili, but it's definitely not because it's in any way uncomfortable. If it is, I don't eat it. If SM was merely a question of pain and the physiological response in the form of endorphins, I might buy the idea of certain people being neurologically "wired to process certain types of pain of discomfort as pleasurable sensations," but since it is associated with punishment and humiliation, it seems to me that it has more to do with psychology: adding realism to the subjugation. To the masochist in the role-playing fantasy, the pain is 'proof' of this: 'I am not the one who wants this (which, of course, I am). I am being forced and punished.'

I have a problem with another description because you make it sound too much like going to a spa or like the song from Cheers:

Quote:
Others who feel the burdens of power in their lives often cherish the feeling* of a complete and utter lack of responsibility, letting go and letting someone else be responsible for everything for a change.

*Please note I said feeling, the actual reality is a bit different. More on that later.

I noted, but please note that there's a big difference between, on the one hand, relaxation and being catered for, and on the other, humiliation and degradation. I don't think that your description takes account of that. But interesting, at a societal level, the effort that being in control demands ...

Quote:
Yes, people get hurt. As I noted, people do stupid things or make mistakes. That's part of being human. And an extremely small number of people have died because of that. But guess what, life has risks, and far more people die doing other non-essential things. Compare the per capita number of people who have died or been seriously injured during BDSM activities to the number of people who have died or been seriously injured during sporting activities, and there is no contest. A far greater percentage of people die or are injured participating in sports, especially the more extreme "adrenaline junkie" sort of sports. Yet you rarely hear the kind of ranting about extreme sports that you hear about extreme sex.

I certainly hear more about the dangers of extreme sports than about the dangers of BDSM. Like I said, when a case in on the front page of the tabloids, you tend to hear about the latter, otherwise not at all. I think the dangers of extreme sports are reported on more often than the dangers of BDSM; probably because more people are injured that way corresponding to the number of people involved in extreme sports, I assume.

Quote:
One thing that a lot of people don't understand is just how common paraphilias are.

I don't doubt it. It became obvious with the Shades series how many are at least titilated by BDSM. And I do "know some" of those.

Quote:
As for the Dominance and Submission thing that so many ignorant people like to harp on, a common misconception of the relationship is over who is actually in control. While the power dynamic appears to be obvious and simple to an outside observer, it's anything but. In fact, the majority of control in the scene ("scene" being a term used by the BDSM community to refer to a particular activity session) belongs to the Submissive partner, who basically sets the stage, defines the limits, and holds final veto over any and all actions. The Sub decides when it starts and ends.

That became obvious to me when I read about Sacher-Masoch coercing his wife into being a dom to him.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 14th May 2019, 08:25 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I love chili, but it's definitely not because it's in any way uncomfortable. If it is, I don't eat it.

Marge is back, I see.

You've never heard the expression "It hurts, but in a good way"?
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:36 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Alright, I'm trying to figure out which part was inaccurate.

You agree that you were asking why people are into BDSM, so "What do they get out of it?"

I just took a look at the first couple of pages where I don't seem to ask that question. Instead I ask much more specific questions about things that I disagree with. I think that Checkmite and Thermal were the ones who expressed that they didn't get what people got out of it. Thermal said that it also didn't matter, live and let live, and Checkmite that he had a hard time seeing a biological component of paraphilias - unlike the case of heterosexuality-homosexuality, i.e. sexual orientation. Me too, by the way.
I asked questions like this: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ply&p=12691211

Quote:
Seems pretty accurate. And "Here's what I get out of it" seems like an accurate portrayal of Myriad's post. That leaves the final line.

Okay so, if he had written:

"What do they get out of it?"

"Well, here's what I get out it."

"Doesn't count, because that's just an anecdote."

Would you consider that to be accurate?

No.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:37 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Marge is back, I see.

You've never heard the expression "It hurts, but in a good way"?

I haven't?!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:51 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I haven't?!
It was a question. Allow me to rephrase:

Have you never heard the expression "It hurts, but in a good way"?
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:55 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
ThIf SM was merely a question of pain and the physiological response in the form of endorphins, I might buy the idea of certain people being neurologically "wired to process certain types of pain of discomfort as pleasurable sensations," but since it is associated with punishment and humiliation, it seems to me that it has more to do with psychology: adding realism to the subjugation.

You're conflating. S&M is not inevitably associated with "punishment" or humiliation, nor is it even associated with such in the majority of scenes. You're once again displaying your ignorance here.

Quote:
I have a problem with another description because you make it sound too much like going to a spa or like the song from Cheers:

That's your own personal problem, and a demonstration of your prejudice, not my description.

Quote:
I noted, but please note that there's a big difference between, on the one hand, relaxation and being catered for, and on the other, humiliation and degradation. I don't think that your description takes account of that.

That is, again, because you are speaking from ignorance and prejudice, rather than a sincere request for education, and why others in this thread are giving up on you. You seem to be obsessed with humiliation and degradation, regardless of the fact that you've been informed that this is not the only, nor even the most common, form of BDSM, and even when it does exist is simply playacting, like any other form of playacting.

I think perhaps your single-minded focus on humiliation and degradation say far more about you than it does about anything else.

Quote:
I certainly hear more about the dangers of extreme sports than about the dangers of BDSM. Like I said, when a case in on the front page of the tabloids, you tend to hear about the latter, otherwise not at all. I think the dangers of extreme sports are reported on more often than the dangers of BDSM;

Oh please, like the entertainment/tabloid media posing as news would ever pass up an opportunity to splatter any salacious BDSM accident all over the front pages. Look at how many dead celebs get put on blast after someone discovers they died during autoerotic asphyxiation.

Quote:
probably because more people are injured that way corresponding to the number of people involved in extreme sports,

Not even remotely.

Quote:
I assume.

And therein lies the root of your problem. You're assuming based on ignorance and prejudices. Which wouldn't be as bad if you hadn't demonstrated an unwillingness to examine said ignorance and prejudices when faced with contradictory facts.

Perhaps you should make the effort to educate yourself, before assuming anything.

Quote:
That became obvious to me when I read about Sacher-Masoch coercing his wife into being a dom to him.

Failing utterly to see what this has to do with anything that is being said in this thread. Again, you seem utterly obsessed with this one rare incident to the exclusion of all other facts. What does this say about you and your predilections?
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:40 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And as I've made clear several times by now, I actually have read "what people in the BDSM community are saying."
You've read what some people in the BDSM community are saying. You clearly haven't read what other people in the BDSM community are saying. People like me, TragicMonkey and luchog, for example. Why do the words of some rando who had a bad experience outweigh the words of another rando who had a good experience? Why do you believe them and not us?
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:44 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is approximately what the astrologers told us in Denmark when we discussed astrology with them 25 years ago. Nobody is dismissing your experience. I'm saying that it's not an argument. And I disagree with your interpretation of your experience.
I don't see why you would "politely keep quiet," but that's up to you, of course.
The difference is that astrology is fake. BDSM is very real.
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:59 PM   #191
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Oh, and it shouldn't really need to be said, but I have a lot less actual experience in the scene than TragicMonkey or luchog, so if I ever say something that is contradicted by either of them, you should pay attention to them rather than me.
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:02 PM   #192
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To clarify my earlier point, I was speaking not from personal experience as a participant in the BDSM community, but from personal experience as a person who many years ago had the same kind of questions as dann was asking and was successfully able to answer them to my satisfaction by reading the kinds of sources I mentioned. Those include threads much like this one from many other places across the Internet.

(Dann, it stands to reason that anything you can learn from reading this thread, anyone else can also learn from reading this thread. Furthermore, unless someone is posting never before revealed super secret information to this thread, which is damned unlikely, the same can be learned from reading other discussions much like it elsewhere. This makes your seeming expectation to be given answers to your questions that no one could have learned elsewhere just by merely reading stuff seem a bit illogical.)

To go beyond dry expository reporting and gain a deeper understanding of those experiences, without being a person who actually has them, I suggest the means humans have always communicated such things, narrative fiction. Now, this is a challenge because fiction isn't limited to what's literally true, and you have to decode what a story means rather than just what it says. If you see Aesop's Fables only as very inaccurate depictions of animal behavior, then you might be wasting your time, but assuming you process metaphors and story-morals normally it should be within your reach. For instance, the Ashley Closet comic series by C.A.B. (easy to find, free, not safe for work) is far from realistic (Ashley's landlord being an affable Eldritch horror from beyond space is one clue) but it portrays the desires and frustrations of an unfulfilled wannabe sub in a way that rings true to me (based on everything else I've read) and that others who have direct relevant experience have stated resonates with them as well.

As others have already mentioned, Fifty Shades is very poor material for this purpose. (Though I did read that too, because my wife read it and enjoyed it, and one does not sustain a lifelong marital relationship on the "randy teenager" setting by ignoring such clues. Which doesn't make us "real" BDSM fetishists, it adds a little spice to our vanilla.) But there's a wealth of better work for free. More extreme stories can be revealing about the less extreme experiences, but require more interpretation. (Are the writers of Academy Girl by Cardaniel — not safe for work even though it's all text — likely to let someone hang them to death in real life? If not, why not? And by the way that's not the limit of extreme, it's about halfway.)

People are strange and fascinating!
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:23 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
People are strange and fascinating!
True that.
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:55 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
As others have already mentioned, Fifty Shades is very poor material for this purpose.

I have to pop up and say that that sounds like praising with faint damns to me.

Fifty Shades of Gray is not only poor literature, it is literally the worst depiction of BDSM relationships in modern popular culture, bar none. The relationships in it are nothing whatsoever like healthy relationships, and the scenarios depicted bear little to no relation to proper BDSM scenes. There's no appreciable negotiation, no safety nets established, and no real consentuality. Everything about it is abusive, and quite a bit is flat-out illegal.

That shouldn't be surprising, given that it started life as fanfiction for Twilight -- also know as Mary Sue and the Abusive Stalker Boyfriend.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:10 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I have to pop up and say that that sounds like praising with faint damns to me.



Fifty Shades of Gray is not only poor literature, it is literally the worst depiction of BDSM relationships in modern popular culture, bar none. The relationships in it are nothing whatsoever like healthy relationships, and the scenarios depicted bear little to no relation to proper BDSM scenes. There's no appreciable negotiation, no safety nets established, and no real consentuality. Everything about it is abusive, and quite a bit is flat-out illegal.



That shouldn't be surprising, given that it started life as fanfiction for Twilight -- also know as Mary Sue and the Abusive Stalker Boyfriend.
You're just supporting dann's idea of BDSM being wrongbad and inexplicable.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:12 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're just supporting dann's idea of BDSM being wrongbad and inexplicable.
No they're not. They're supporting the idea of 50 Shades being wrongbad and inexplicable.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:22 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No they're not. They're supporting the idea of 50 Shades being wrongbad and inexplicable.
Sorry. I was being sarcastic. But also cynically informed. Do you doubt that the dysfunctionality of Fifty Shades will feed dann's argument?
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:33 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry. I was being sarcastic. But also cynically informed. Do you doubt that the dysfunctionality of Fifty Shades will feed dann's argument?
I believe that dann is intelligent enough for it not to.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:38 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I have to pop up and say that that sounds like praising with faint damns to me.

Fifty Shades of Gray is not only poor literature, it is literally the worst depiction of BDSM relationships in modern popular culture, bar none. The relationships in it are nothing whatsoever like healthy relationships, and the scenarios depicted bear little to no relation to proper BDSM scenes. There's no appreciable negotiation, no safety nets established, and no real consentuality. Everything about it is abusive, and quite a bit is flat-out illegal.

That shouldn't be surprising, given that it started life as fanfiction for Twilight -- also know as Mary Sue and the Abusive Stalker Boyfriend.

I agree with all that. In addition, inserting a back story of earlier abusive relationships in Grey's past to "explain" and justify his paraphilia was ignorant, scientifically inaccurate, and insulting to the BDSM community.

Most of the audience didn't care about any of that. Their reaction was entirely on the level of, "Ooh, naughty sex with handcuffs! *titter* And he's rich!"

Sorry, praising with faint damns is kind of my thing. I could tell you some good things about scientology, astrology, and Trump, but I'd rather not and I doubt you'd want to hear them.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:42 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You're conflating. S&M is not inevitably associated with "punishment" or humiliation, nor is it even associated with such in the majority of scenes. You're once again displaying your ignorance here.

No, I’m not, and I never claimed any inevitability, or even predominance.

Quote:
That's your own personal problem, and a demonstration of your prejudice, not my description.

Yes, it is a problem with your description even if you are unwilling to recognize it. If a BDSM establishment used this description in their advertisement:
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Others who feel the burdens of power in their lives often cherish the feeling* of a complete and utter lack of responsibility, letting go and letting someone else be responsible for everything for a change.
… they would attract clients that would be very confused by the services actually offered, i.e. spa clients instead of BDSM clients. And you know that as well as I do and maybe even better. I have no doubt that there’s a lot of code language for this kind of establishment, but …

Quote:
That is, again, because you are speaking from ignorance and prejudice, rather than a sincere request for education, and why others in this thread are giving up on you. You seem to be obsessed with humiliation and degradation, regardless of the fact that you've been informed that this is not the only, nor even the most common, form of BDSM, and even when it does exist is simply playacting, like any other form of playacting.

I think perhaps your single-minded focus on humiliation and degradation say far more about you than it does about anything else.

You seem to have worked youself into a frenzy about my references to humiliation, which is obviously a very important part of the BDSM community, scene, whatever. I mention it in the context of my response to you because it is something that cannot be explained (away) by differences in the physiological response to physical pain. By the way, it was something that occurred to me when I was no more than 12 or 13 and had started reading sex ed articles in the Danish magazine Beat by Inge & Sten Hegeler, famous at the time because they were pioneers in sex ed, which was much debated at the time but didn’t become part of the curriculum [url=https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/kultur/historie/45-aar-med-sex-paa-skoleskemaet]in Danish schools till 1970.[/i] The magazine was about pop music, in particular ‘beat’ music, but the Hegelers got a weekly column to tell young people everything about sex. The pain-threshold idea seemed to be an accepted theory at the time, and it was mentioned when they got around to the ‘–isms’ in later issues. At the time, I had never read about SM, but it immediately occurred to me that where it might explain a physical response to pain, it did not at all explain the rest of the stuff that was described as part of masochism.
It also doesn’t explain bondage, masks etc., just to reference other things.
I mentioned humiliation because of its obvious non-physical nature.
If I remember correctly, the Hegelers later gave up on the idea of a ‘pain threshold,’ i.e. that some people were wired to process pain as pleasurable.
But this is really much more explanation than I think you deserve.

Quote:
Oh please, like the entertainment/tabloid media posing as news would ever pass up an opportunity to splatter any salacious BDSM accident all over the front pages. Look at how many dead celebs get put on blast after someone discovers they died during autoerotic asphyxiation.

Not even remotely.

I don’t remember seeing articles in tabloids about autoerotic asphyxiation since the INXS guy more than 20 years ago, but maybe I just didn’t notice or forgot about them. I’m pretty sure that it was never covere by Inge & Sten. (It just occurred to me that I may have a vague recollection of some British politician that I’d never heard of till then killing himself that way.)
I just googled “extreme sport deaths”: “About 80.500.000 results”
And BDSM deaths”: “About 1.020.000 results”

Quote:
Quote:
I assume.
And therein lies the root of your problem. You're assuming based on ignorance and prejudices. Which wouldn't be as bad if you hadn't demonstrated an unwillingness to examine said ignorance and prejudices when faced with contradictory facts.

Perhaps you should make the effort to educate yourself, before assuming anything.

To explicitly make it obvious when I am assuming is a terrible debating mistake that should be taken advantage of immediately. Congratulations with your despicable debating tactics.

Quote:
Failing utterly to see what this has to do with anything that is being said in this thread. Again, you seem utterly obsessed with this one rare incident to the exclusion of all other facts. What does this say about you and your predilections?

At this point, I might have picked up on your debating tactics and declared that, yes, you are utterly failing, but I don't see the point of that and I won’t stoop to your level.
What does that say about your predilections?
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