ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags anti-vaxxers , diet issues , parenting incidents , parenting issues , veganism

Reply
Old 12th May 2019, 01:37 PM   #41
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 12,758
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Surprising how often you feel the need for simple Venn diagrams around here.
You don't need it, when there is nearly 99% overlap between those two categories.
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 02:14 PM   #42
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,390
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Surprising how often you feel the need for simple Venn diagrams around here.
I feel the need?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 02:15 PM   #43
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,390
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
You don't need it, when there is nearly 99% overlap between those two categories.
Which two categories? Are you also falsely accusing vegans?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 02:30 PM   #44
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 15,413
Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Oh, come off it. There are several elite vegan athletes out there. Obviously, a vegan diet can provide everything a person needs, especially protein. ....
Sure, as long as you address the essential nutrients that are missing from a strict vegan diet..

I have a feeling some of these vegans are not addressing those needs..

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th May 2019, 02:38 PM   #45
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 20,565
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
You don't need it, when there is nearly 99% overlap between those two categories.
Citation, thanks.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 08:06 AM   #46
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,824
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Sure, as long as you address the essential nutrients that are missing from a strict vegan diet..

I have a feeling some of these vegans are not addressing those needs..

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Quite possibly, then again I know plenty of omnivores who are missing out on important nutrients - heck my diet probably isn't that great when I'm not in training.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 08:09 AM   #47
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 17,511
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Quite possibly, then again I know plenty of omnivores who are missing out on important nutrients - heck my diet probably isn't that great when I'm not in training.
Yeah but we aren't promoting our poor diets into our self identity and codifying it into a "lifestyle."

I'm not a "WayTooMuchSodaAndDoritiosian." I just drink too much soda and eat too many Doritos. It doesn't go on my "Character Sheet."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 13th May 2019 at 08:10 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 08:27 AM   #48
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,724
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but we aren't promoting our poor diets into our self identity and codifying it into a "lifestyle."

I'm not a "WayTooMuchSodaAndDoritiosian." I just drink too much soda and eat too many Doritos. It doesn't go on my "Character Sheet."
Too bad, if you dedicated all your points to Doritos you could spec as Cool Ranch, which grants Zesty Flavor bonuses.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 09:07 AM   #49
8enotto
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 611
As for the 30 bananas thing I know a semi pro cyclist in Spain that subscribed. He would come to visit while in Mexico and eat every banana in the house in a day, my wife leaves fruit out to encourage us to snack healthy.

Bananas are cheap here. Very cheap compared to Spain.

Any limited range diet needs supplements to balance out missing elements.

I am an antivegan of sorts. No sense in eating just to eat, got to enjoy the time spent. So to get the vitamins such I usually drink fruit juices. The ones that don't have to be choked down for odd flavors added. But, much like Joe Morgue I am a sodas and bagged goodies junkie. Hard to keep that in check.

Last edited by 8enotto; 13th May 2019 at 09:09 AM.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 09:21 AM   #50
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,054
Look the only case I can remember of Vegitarianism hurting others is when it shifted from personal statements of belief to public policy. Specifically banning eggs in tax subsidized meals which would be a valuable source of protean to malnurished children.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-32967764

THere certainly are ways to raise a healthy vegan child but that didn't happen here. Just like someone can be christian and take their kid to the doctor, it is the neglect no matter the ideology that might be comorbid with it that is the issue.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 09:24 AM   #51
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,346
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I know its a bit controversial here but choices to not include meat in your diet can be well reasoned choices that may take factors like environment, climate change and animal welfare into consideration.
Not to mention health. The problem in this case was a severe lack of calories provided to a child.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 09:29 AM   #52
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,346
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
As for the 30 bananas thing I know a semi pro cyclist in Spain that subscribed. He would come to visit while in Mexico and eat every banana in the house in a day, my wife leaves fruit out to encourage us to snack healthy.

Bananas are cheap here. Very cheap compared to Spain.
Bananas, dates and potatoes are my staples. Seems to be working remarkably well for me.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 09:38 AM   #53
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,204
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Last edited by Information Analyst; 13th May 2019 at 09:49 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 09:50 AM   #54
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,223
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look the only case I can remember of Vegitarianism hurting others is when it shifted from personal statements of belief to public policy. Specifically banning eggs in tax subsidized meals which would be a valuable source of protean to malnurished children.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-32967764

THere certainly are ways to raise a healthy vegan child but that didn't happen here. Just like someone can be christian and take their kid to the doctor, it is the neglect no matter the ideology that might be comorbid with it that is the issue.
It's actually trimorbidity. If it was just Vegans and parents that's one thing, but Australians, vegans and parents? That's a perfect trifecta!*



*I'm only partially kidding.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 10:51 AM   #55
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 81,459
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Scum. Deserve severe punishment.
Said punishment should perhaps include sterilization. No more experiments for you, sir and ma'am.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward



Last edited by Belz...; 13th May 2019 at 11:10 AM.
Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 11:07 AM   #56
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Citation, thanks.
But the point is that to him, as an ordinary man, a crank meant a Socialist and a Socialist meant a crank. Any Socialist, he probably felt, could be counted on to have something eccentric about him. And some such notion seems to exist even among Socialists themselves. For instance, I have here a prospectus from another summer school which states its terms per week and then asks me to say ‘whether my diet is ordinary or vegetarian’. They take it for granted, you see, that it is necessary to ask this question. This kind of thing is by itself sufficient to alienate plenty of decent people. And their instinct is perfectly sound, for the food-crank is by definition a person willing to cut himself off from human society in hopes of adding five years on to the life of his carcase; that is, a person but of touch with common humanity.
- George Orwell, The Road to Wigan Pier
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 01:36 PM   #57
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,390
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
...

THere certainly are ways to raise a healthy vegan child but that didn't happen here. Just like someone can be christian and take their kid to the doctor, it is the neglect no matter the ideology that might be comorbid with it that is the issue.
Who knew there were vegan haters on this board?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 02:25 PM   #58
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,470
It seems pretty simple to me: it is possible to raise a healthy child on a Vegan diet, but it is significantly more difficult than it would be a more typical, broader diet and requires a very strong understanding of the nutrients required (which are different for babies and young children from those required by adults) and of the sources from which these nutrients are available. i.e. one really has to know what one is doing! Fine by me when the parents can achieve this.

Also as pointed out upthread: some (many?) vegans I've met view it more as a religion than just a choice of foods. I fear that the ideology can supplement common sense in some cases where the parents apply their "religion" to their new born children.

Last edited by Giordano; 13th May 2019 at 02:29 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 02:27 PM   #59
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,470
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who knew there were vegan haters on this board?
Smug, self-obsessed little twats. Um, I mean I don't hate them at all!

But don't ask me about some bicyclists. Smug, self-obsessed little twats in Spandex. Um, nevermind! I'm just in a bad mood all around.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 03:15 PM   #60
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,390
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Smug, self-obsessed little twats. Um, I mean I don't hate them at all!

But don't ask me about some bicyclists. Smug, self-obsessed little twats in Spandex. Um, nevermind! I'm just in a bad mood all around.
It was not you I meant. However, going back over the thread, it seems confined to fewer people than I thought.

Quote:
The problems arise when you combine [wilful] ignorance and disinformation with ideology or even fanaticism, the latter two arguably characterising many or even most vegans, and certainly the case with these parents. They denied the evidence of their own eyes in favour of 'received wisdom' and their beliefs to the point that they nearly killed this poor child.
A person who chooses to only eat plants isn't necessarily any more fanatical than someone who choses to recycle.


There certainly are stereotypes here about vegans.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm more with JoeMorgue on this. People introduce themselves as a vegan, they will say "I am a vegan", for many people it is part of their identity rather than just a statement about what they will eat....
I've never heard this unless it was referring to an invite to eat something.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 03:24 PM   #61
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,470
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It was not you I meant. However, going back over the thread, it seems confined to fewer people than I thought.

A person who chooses to only eat plants isn't necessarily any more fanatical than someone who choses to recycle.


There certainly are stereotypes here about vegans.
I've never heard this unless it was referring to an invite to eat something.
Some of my best friends are vegans. Truly, and it only comes up when we make meal plans. Most are not ideologs. But most vegans my age were converted by their children, and some of them...
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 03:38 PM   #62
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 15,413
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Quite possibly, then again I know plenty of omnivores who are missing out on important nutrients - heck my diet probably isn't that great when I'm not in training.

I agree whole heartedly..

There is an obesity epidemic, and I would guess that many of those are malnourished, and few of them are vegans.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 04:05 PM   #63
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,768
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Despite what many might believe the issue of what constitutes a healthy diet for humans is far from settled, and this is in large part due to vested interests having obfuscated, and continuing to obfuscate it in the pursuit of profit, for example when it comes to fats (fatty acids).
"Settled" is a loaded word. Notwithstanding, the health benefits of a vegetarian diet are well established, and not particularly controversial.

Quote:
It's suited food manufacturers very well to have plant oils hyped as "healthy" or "healthier" because by-and-large they're the cheapest and can thus be used to 'value add' to foods made with them...
I dunno; maybe so. But that doesn't change what the science tells us.

Quote:
So, we have people believing implicitly that plant oils are intrinsically "healthy" and this contributes in large part to their believing that a vegetarian or even vegan diet is also "healthy".

They couldn't be more mistaken.
Oh really...?
Quote:
Eating a vegetarian or primarily plant-based diet is associated with a variety of health benefits ... Mounting evidence suggests a plant-based diet lowers heart disease risk
American Society for Nutrition
Quote:
Strong body of evidence favoring plant-based diets
NIH
Quote:
A well-planned vegetarian diet is a healthy way to meet your nutritional needs
Mayo Clinic
Quote:
Hundreds of studies suggest that eating lots of fruits and vegetables can reduce the risk of developing certain cancers
Harvard Medical School
I could go on at great length.

My aim isn't to debate any particular study. Rather, I'm suggesting you re-frame your argument (you and the rest of the Van Winkle family that is) to catch up to current times by prefacing your fact-challenged notions with something along the lines of: Even though my opinions fly in the face of science...

Quote:
The problems arise when you combine [wilful] [sic] ignorance and disinformation with ideology or even fanaticism
Indeed.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 04:43 PM   #64
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 15,413
Then there is this:

Vegetarian diet and all-cause mortality:

Quote:
We found no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 05:07 PM   #65
8enotto
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Bananas, dates and potatoes are my staples. Seems to be working remarkably well for me.
He figured it worked well too for all free bananas. He was no vegan, but it couldn't hurt as he did up to five spinning classes a day for a few months.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 05:26 PM   #66
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 23,436
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but we aren't promoting our poor diets into our self identity and codifying it into a "lifestyle."

I'm not a "WayTooMuchSodaAndDoritiosian." I just drink too much soda and eat too many Doritos. It doesn't go on my "Character Sheet."
People keep using this analogy, but it doesn't seem valid to me. The term "vegetarian" as it is most commonly used does not describe simply one or two food items that a person tends to eat a lot of, or eat none of. It describes an entire type of food source that these individuals tend to avoid - and more often than not, there DOES tend to be a certain defined philosophy or belief system that forms the basis of this food choice; i.e., it isn't completely arbitrary.

Anyone of course is free to decide whether or not that belief is a "good one" or a "rational one" according to their own personal criteria; but that doesn't matter. What's important is that the philosophy as a basis IS there, and thus "vegetarian" is as valid a point of self-identity as any other philosophical/belief-based label, like "liberal" or "Christian" or "pacifist".
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 05:46 PM   #67
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 73,390
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
"All-cause" mortality: That's one of those studies that shows you might get less heart disease as a vegetarian, but if you live long enough you'll die of homicide, suicide or accidents anyway.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2019, 11:48 PM   #68
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,824
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It seems pretty simple to me: it is possible to raise a healthy child on a Vegan diet, but it is significantly more difficult than it would be a more typical, broader diet and requires a very strong understanding of the nutrients required (which are different for babies and young children from those required by adults) and of the sources from which these nutrients are available. i.e. one really has to know what one is doing! Fine by me when the parents can achieve this.
And yet there are entire cultures who are vegan or vegetarian and they seem to manage. The impression given by articles which are anti vegan or vegetarian is that diet is a minefield, that people must get all their nutrients all the time and that if you're omnivorous then it's easy. I'd suggest all of that should be taken with a (very small) pinch of salt.

There was an article upthread which listed 7 dietary deficiencies that vegans or vegetarians may face and suggested that they would almost certainly require dietary supplements. Looking at the list which included B12, D and omega oils, the same would also apply to most omnivores eating a US or UK diet.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Also as pointed out upthread: some (many?) vegans I've met view it more as a religion than just a choice of foods. I fear that the ideology can supplement common sense in some cases where the parents apply their "religion" to their new born children.
No doubt some vegans are a pain in the backside. If you're vegan because you're passionate about animal welfare and/or you're on a mission to save the planet from global warming then it's likely that you will bang on about it a bit - not least because of the strength of your convictions. Then again, I reckon that for every hour I've had to spend with a vegan listening to them extol the virtues of their lifestyle, I've spent many times that amount of time listening to people complain about vegans or vegetarians.

If someone is vegan or vegetarian then personally I'd like to know as soon as possible. I like to try and be as hospitable as I can and being aware of dietary preferences allows me to decide whether I want to accommodate them.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 12:02 AM   #69
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,315
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who knew there were vegan haters on this board?
I doubt it is hate

I think it is just mean

I mean normal people

They share around what things they kill and eat in a caring and sharing way.

Vegans have a more selfish approach where they just pick on plants in some sadistic need to wipe them off the planet.

Basically vegans in essence are plant serial killers

Justice 4 the plants!

__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:05 AM   #70
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,054
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who knew there were vegan haters on this board?
I just generally think we can find people against any group on this board.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:06 AM   #71
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,054
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I agree whole heartedly..

There is an obesity epidemic, and I would guess that many of those are malnourished, and few of them are vegans.
Of course being obese and malnourished are not exactly opposites.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:08 AM   #72
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,054
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
"Settled" is a loaded word. Notwithstanding, the health benefits of a vegetarian diet are well established, and not particularly controversial.
Which diet to which diet? You can have a crappy vegetarian diet or a healthy omnivorous diet. Vegetarian doesn't automatically make it healthier if every meal is mac and cheese.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:12 AM   #73
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 48,724
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I just generally think we can find people against any group on this board.
Ethnic Swiss ska-listening vampire role-player water polo teams are the worst! Ban them!!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:13 AM   #74
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,353
As someone who spent over 20 years as a vegetarian, there are few "lifestyle choices" that annoy me more than veganism. Mainly because for the bulk of vegans, the choice is not well-understood, well-researched, or based on anything more than trendy fanaticism. And I've met very, very few self-professed vegans who were not fanatics about their lifestyle, most with a quasi-religious fervor.

Some people have been trying to divorce the veganism in the OP from the result, the malnourished infant, and insist that it's merely neglect. No, that's not true. In fact, the veganism, or more appropriately the sort of ignorant fanaticism that drives many vegans, is directly responsible. These sorts of people simply do not do adequate research on their dietary choices, but just go with whatever trendy diet they pick up from friends or books or the Internet. They don't consult with nutritionists, and only avoid common deficiency disorders due to eating large amounts of pre-packaged foods which are supplemented by the manufacturers to compensate for the dietary deficiencies.

It's the same sort of fanaticism that one sees in alt.med adherents. And, in fact, the two are very closely linked, the vast majority of vegans of my acquaintance, at least (and I know a lot of them), are also into alt.med. We've all see the stories of parents whose children have died, or come very close to dying, due to the parents refusal to get them proper medical treatment, relying on various types of medical woo instead.

And one cannot necessarily call them neglectful, because very often they're not. What they are is willfully ignorant. The same as any religious nutcase who chooses faith healing over evidence-based medicine. Like my parents, who were very into faith-healing and various forms of alt.med woo that were popular in the '70s and '80s. One could hardly call my parents neglectful, far from it; but I have a number of health problems that I would not have had my parents been less anti-fanatical about their aversion to science and scientific medicine.

And that's what this is ultimately about, fanaticism. However, well-intentioned they might be, fanaticism can create and exacerbate ignorance, and humans are quite remarkable in what they can rationalize and justify to themselves. If a baby on a vegan diet isn't thriving, it's not because the diet is bad, it's because of mythical "toxins" in the environment, specious food allergies, imaginary illnesses, literally anything but the diet. Such parents will even drive themselves insane, spending huge amounts of money, trying to find a "cure" to the problems that they're unwittingly causing.

And the situation is only getting worse thanks to the Internet. While before, such people would likely have few if any like-minded friends and family, and would have had more people around willing to challenge their BS, thanks to the Internet they can find huge communities willing and eager to reinforce their delusions and ignorance. They can find predators willing to prey on their ignorance, and similarly ignorant people who can provide them believable justifications and evasions. The Internet fills the role for such people that churches fulfill for faith-healers.

Again, this doesn't need to be about neglect. We've seen far too many times how attentive and well-meaning but ignorant and fearful parents can be led astray by charlatans and fanatics, or by similarly ignorant and fearful people in their peer group, and make horrible decisions for their children because of it. Dismissing this as neglect ignores a much deeper and more pervasive problem of disinformation, with a dynamic that is difficult to counter effectively.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:30 AM   #75
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,353
And to add to that, anyone who thinks that veganism is cruelty-free hasn't really researched the impact of veganism on the world community.

Yes, it's probably free of animal cruelty (that is not a given, however), but it's not free of cruelty to humans or the greater environment. Veganism as a diet has a huge impact on agriculture, and indirectly promotes exploitation of indigenous peoples, and has helped drive the destruction of natural environment in favour of high-impact farming of products like palm oil and coconut oil.

I had a link to a very good blog on the subject, but the server it was on appears to be down. However, there are some good articles on parts of what that blog covered.

For example, quinoa production for the international market has had a huge negative impact on indigenous peoples in Peru and Bolivia. While quinoa is popular with a lot of people these days, its popularity originated within the vegan/vegetarian community, and it was highly promoted there as a "miracle food/superfood". Like many such things, it eventually grew beyond the small vegan community and became more popular with trendy "healthy lifestylers".

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-truth-quinoa

The production of palm oil, again driven in large part by the vegan/vegetarian popularization of it, has been hugely destructive of rainforest environments in multiple parts of the world.

For non-food-related impacts, vegans eschew any and all animal products, which includes leather and fur, and very often wool as well. These have been replaced predominantly with synthetic alternatives, which are almost universally derived from petroleum products. I'll leave the impact of that as an exercise for the reader, since I doubt anyone who hasn't been living under a rock for the last 50 years is unaware of how the petroleum industry affects the environment. Yet the willful ignorance and rationalizations engaged in by vegans for preferring one sort of impact over another keep this problem from being rationally examined and addressed.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 09:43 AM   #76
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,572
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well said. One of my daughters is vegan, and she is disgusted with this couple, and equally annoyed that veganism is the focus of news reports.
Guns used against kids, sensible option is to limit guns.

Vegans kill kids through diet at an increasing rate it can't be vegan diets.

Funny how different things are when it is something you like killing children.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 10:14 AM   #77
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And to add to that, anyone who thinks that veganism is cruelty-free hasn't really researched the impact of veganism on the world community.
I don't think humans should be treated like this.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 10:23 AM   #78
Bouncing Bettys
Thinker
 
Bouncing Bettys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Bowen Island, British Columbia
Posts: 163
When I see parents selfishly harm their children for their dieting religion, I have little sympathy.

"Failure to thrive" is a term I term I learned early in my son's life. He dealt with NG tubes since the NICU, making almost daily returns to have the nurses painfully reinsert the tube after he pulled it out. Eventually I learned how to do reinsert it to save the trips. Later it was recommended he have surgery for an G tube and an expensive pump, where he was having to make frequent visits for issues with G tube port or infections.

Thankfully he is past all that but his height and weight are still on the lower end of the scale for his age (4). He loves food. Broccoli, pickles, butter chicken, bacon, and milk are his favourite items. His ancestry is full of people with above average height and healthy weights so maybe he will make up some ground with a healthy diet.

Children need all the help they can get, not to be intentionally put through an arduous journey. Those decisions could drastically effect a child for the rest of its life.

Last edited by Bouncing Bettys; 14th May 2019 at 10:25 AM.
Bouncing Bettys is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 10:30 AM   #79
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,293
Is throwing eggs at a vegan considered violent?
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2019, 10:32 AM   #80
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,253
Some of these arguments are like something a malnourished vegan child would come up with.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:38 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.