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Old 4th June 2019, 04:39 PM   #361
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
The claim was that it was unethical to require people to abstain from a vaccination.
The assertion was "For example a proper study comparing the fully vaccinated to the unvaccinated.". The assertion is wrong because at last 1 of these "proper studies" have been done.
Vaccinated versus unvaccinated children: how they fare in first five years of life. (1990)

The claim would be that it is unethical to run a proper clinical trial because these take a group of subjects and split them into a control group and a test group. The control group would not be vaccinated which allows them to be infected and is unethical.

Comparing existing not-vaccinated groups to vaccinated groups for a single vaccine is not a clinical trial, is done and is ethical. There is the issue of a "self-selected" control group which makes things more complex. The researchers have to ask whether deciding not to vaccinate will affect their results. The same has to be asked for the test group.

But the antivaxer "one study" myth is impractical and rather useless. Researchers want to get results that can be applied in the real world. A fully non-vaccinated /vaccinated study cannot say which vaccine had beneficial or adverse effects. It would be almost useless. Trying to trace any effects to a vaccine or vaccines would need many groups and there are only so many fully-unvaccinated people. That runs into the problem of small numbers.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:48 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
All that matters here is whether what I post is true or not.
All sorts of things matter about what you post, Itchy Boy.
When you claim not to be an antivaxer and link to antivaxers writing antivaxer myths (and lies in another thread), that makes your claim dubious.You are at least being ignorant about your sources by not researching their content or authors.

28 May 2019 Itchy Boy: You seem to be repeating anti-vaccination myths, lies and paranoia without doing any research first (other thread).
30 May 2019 Itchy Boy: A thimerosal in vaccines liar is not a reliable source about vaccines (Robert F Kennedy) (other thread)

4 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Cites a BMJ editorial with known antivaxer myths by a obvious antivaxer.

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Old 4th June 2019, 05:02 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I don't hold that vaccines cause autism. Only that the science isn't settled.
Missed this. Science is theoretically never settled. We can speculate that tomorrow studies may be published all showing that vaccines are linked to autism. The reasonable question is how likely is it? In other words: Has the science been settled beyond a reasonable doubt?

The answer is that it has been settled beyond a reasonable doubt that there is no link between vaccines and autism by many studies. It is extremely unlikely that any future studies will show that there is a link. It is even more unlikely that there will be an equivalent body of evidence to the existing studies showing no link.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:14 PM   #364
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Question What is the documented difference between a natural and vaccine antibody

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
I can appreciate you injecting doubt that the antibodies may not transfer to the child....:
That is not what I wrote. The placenta exists. It may be an antibody barrier. It may be an antibody transport. I do not know. You seem not to know.

That antibodies exist in breast milk and breast fed babies can get immunity this way is well known.

You are sticking to a still unsupported "naturally derived antibodies" vs vaccine antibody story. ServiceSoon: What is the documented difference between a natural and vaccine antibody?
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:14 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Post those studies. Just make sure the author is not Aaby. He has been trying to milk his time in Guinea-Bissau for the last ten years. He has been p-hacking what little data he got in the 1980s in an effort to turn himself into some new "maverick." Only folks like you fall for it.


Edit to add: it is only "apples to apples" if children in North America and Europe are living where the water supply also contains sewage. So where in Canada are kids playing in puddles with sewage? I know Victoria is finally going to treat its sewage, but still there were no open sewers.
How about aiming for the message instead of the messenger? Do you dispute the findings?
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:15 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The assertion was "For example a proper study comparing the fully vaccinated to the unvaccinated.". The assertion is wrong because at last 1 of these "proper studies" have been done.
Vaccinated versus unvaccinated children: how they fare in first five years of life. (1990)

The claim would be that it is unethical to run a proper clinical trial because these take a group of subjects and split them into a control group and a test group. The control group would not be vaccinated which allows them to be infected and is unethical.

Comparing existing not-vaccinated groups to vaccinated groups for a single vaccine is not a clinical trial, is done and is ethical. There is the issue of a "self-selected" control group which makes things more complex. The researchers have to ask whether deciding not to vaccinate will affect their results. The same has to be asked for the test group.

But the antivaxer "one study" myth is impractical and rather useless. Researchers want to get results that can be applied in the real world. A fully non-vaccinated /vaccinated study cannot say which vaccine had beneficial or adverse effects. It would be almost useless. Trying to trace any effects to a vaccine or vaccines would need many groups and there are only so many fully-unvaccinated people. That runs into the problem of small numbers.
You're not fully vaccinated at 5 years old.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:23 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
All sorts of things matter about what you post, Itchy Boy.
When you claim not to be an antivaxer and link to antivaxers writing antivaxer myths (and lies in another thread), that makes your claim dubious.You are at least being ignorant about your sources by not researching their content or authors.

28 May 2019 Itchy Boy: You seem to be repeating anti-vaccination myths, lies and paranoia without doing any research first (other thread).
30 May 2019 Itchy Boy: A thimerosal in vaccines liar is not a reliable source about vaccines (Robert F Kennedy) (other thread)

4 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Cites a BMJ editorial with known antivaxer myths by a obvious antivaxer.
If anything in the sources I posted is untrue, kindly quote it here. It doesn't matter if a source I quote is the most unreliable in the world. What matters is the truthfulness of the quote.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:28 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Read your OP and the title of this thread "Are vaccines as safe as can be?". That is a question in the present tense. You are citing an ignored 1981 study.

Evidence of Increase in Mortality After the Introduction of Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Vaccine to Children Aged 6-35 Months in Guinea-Bissau: A Time for Reflection? (1981)
What you are actually citing is an obscure, ignored study - 3 citations in almost 40 years. In case you do not know, a low rate of citations is a warning that there is something wrong n the study or that it is trivially correct. When the 3 citations are reviews the warning is enhanced.

BTW, in 1984 Aaby published a paper on Guinea-Bissau children having lower mortality attributable to the measles vaccine. Measles vaccination and reduction in child mortality: a community study from Guinea-Bissau. Cited by 25 PubMed Central articles so not as ignored as the DTP study.

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Old 4th June 2019, 05:34 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
You're not fully vaccinated at 5 years old.
Have you fallen for the full antivaxer "one study" myth which includes every single vaccination that anyone can have, e.g. adult boosters ?
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:35 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If anything in the sources I posted is untrue, kindly quote it here.
Once again: you are posting antivaxer myths here - the antivaxer lies are in your other thread.
28 May 2019 Itchy Boy: You seem to be repeating anti-vaccination myths, lies and paranoia without doing any research first (other thread).
30 May 2019 Itchy Boy: A thimerosal in vaccines liar is not a reliable source about vaccines (Robert F Kennedy) (other thread)

4 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Cites a BMJ editorial with known antivaxer myths by a obvious antivaxer.

I did point out what I charitably called "ignorance or lies" by the antivaxer crank you cited.
6 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Bernadette Pajer wrote a "third dose of MMR cannot boost protection for any length of time [3]" lie
[3] Measles Virus Neutralizing Antibody Response, Cell-Mediated Immunity, and Immunoglobulin G Antibody Avidity Before and After Receipt of a Third Dose of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine in Young Adults
The paper stated that the third dose did boost protection for the time between vaccination and their analysis. They conclude "We did not find compelling data to support a routine third dose of MMR vaccine" because there were minimal qualitative improvements in immune response. Minimal does not mean none.

6 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Bernadette Pajer wrote a "industry does not make a single measles vaccine available" lie.
There are single-component measles vaccines available, e.g. this 2017 study of Adverse effects of single-component measles vaccine in school children!

6 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Bernadette Pajer wrote a "appears to not have had any clinical trials" lie.
Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) Vaccine Safety Studies.

6 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Bernadette Pajer wrote a "medically problematic because of the potential for autoimmunity and insertional mutagenesis" lie.
Textbook biology says this mutagenesis is extremely medically improbable: Aborted fetal tissue” and vaccines: Combining pseudoscience and religion to demonize vaccines

6 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Bernadette Pajer wrote a "highly contaminated with glyphosate" lie.
The Moms across America cranks claim that they paid a laboratory to test vaccines for glyphosate. If true what was found was trace, safe levels: in the parts per billion range; that equates to about one second in the life of someone 32 years old
The scientific evidence is that glyphosate is safe in vaccines or otherwise introduced, e.g. farmers using Roundup: Is glyphosate (Roundup) dangerous?

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Old 4th June 2019, 05:41 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If anything in the sources I posted is untrue, kindly quote it here. It doesn't matter if a source I quote is the most unreliable in the world. What matters is the truthfulness of the quote.
Sadly, I don’t think you’re joking.

Consider this claim:

The Sun never rises in Toronto, Canada. Here are 100 1,000 1,000,000 photos which show only stars in Toronto skies. This proves that the Sun never rises in Toronto.

Here is a quote from that claim: “1,000,000 photos which show only stars in Toronto skies ... the Sun never rises.

What is the “truthfulness” of the quote?

Kinda reminds me of something in the OP, something about how we all want quotes to be as truthful as can be ...
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:43 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Read your OP and the title of this thread "Are vaccines as safe as can be?". That is a question in the present tense. You are citing an ignored 1981 study.

Evidence of Increase in Mortality After the Introduction of Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis Vaccine to Children Aged 6-35 Months in Guinea-Bissau: A Time for Reflection? (1981)
What you are actually citing is an obscure, ignored study - 3 citations in almost 40 years. In case you do not know, a low rate of citations is a warning that there is something wrong n the study or that it is trivially correct. When the 3 citations are reviews the warning is enhanced.

BTW, in 1984 Aaby published a paper on Guinea-Bissau children having lower mortality attributable to the measles vaccine.
Measles vaccination and reduction in child mortality: a community study from Guinea-Bissau.
Cited by 25 PubMed Central articles so not as ignored as the DTP study.
Again, the point was that a vaccine pronounced 'safe' showed higher mortality. RotaShield was also pronounced 'safe' before being taken off the market. The point is that being told by a slew of experts that a vaccine is safe doesn't make it so.

Now, if there's a specific example where I've posted false information, please reveal it.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:46 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
How about aiming for the message instead of the messenger? Do you dispute the findings?
Genuine question for you, IB: do you understand what “p-hacking” is?

Not what you can find with a quick search, but genuine understanding?

FWIW, I seriously doubt you do. Why? Because if you did, your post would be seriously disingenuous, at best ...
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:48 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Again, the point was that a vaccine pronounced 'safe' showed higher mortality. RotaShield was also pronounced 'safe' before being taken off the market. The point is that being told by a slew of experts that a vaccine is safe doesn't make it so.

Now, if there's a specific example where I've posted false information, please reveal it.
Time to move those goalposts again, eh?
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:59 PM   #375
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Thanks.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
His claim is a misrepresentation. That is why he does not cite a source.

The fact of the matter is that a mother passes her immunity (assuming she has it) to her child in the womb. Post birth, that immunity is not 100 % to start with and is entirely gone after 6-9 months.

And yes, I do have a source.

Yes. Yes death is on that agenda. But more on measles deaths in a moment.

No, he wont be giving you a source for that claim either because it is flat out wrong. According to the CDC 1-3 of every thousand infected will die of complications. That is a very different number to what SS claims.

Have I a source for that? I am glad you asked. It is called the CDC. You may have heard of it?

Well you wont get a source there either because see above.

I admire your optimism.

Again, he wont give you one. WHO did indeed mandate Vitamin A for the amelioration of measles complications but again he misrepresents what WHO actually said.

Have I a source for that? Funny you should ask, it's the WHO

Just for shiggles, I will cite the relevant part of the document so you can compare the claim to what was actually stated by WHO.





Yes, the towering ignorant arrogance is quite the thing to behold. He seems to care not that it could kill people.
It is true that, in general, I am an optimist. I once recorded this as my voicemail message: “12A Optimism Drive, how may I direct your call?”
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:25 PM   #376
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Thumbs down Does not acknowledge his citation of a paper on 1981 data

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Again, ....
6 June 2018 Itchy Boy: Does not acknowledge his citation of an obscure, irrelevant 1981 paper on 1981 data.

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Old 4th June 2019, 06:45 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Again, the point was that a vaccine pronounced 'safe' showed higher mortality.
A "vaccine pronounced 'safe' showed higher mortality" fantasy.

A version of the DTP vaccine was approved as safe before 1981 because there was no evidence that it was unsafe like all vaccine approvals. A paper claimed that DTP vaccine showed higher mortality in a specific population (Children Aged 6-35 Months in Guinea-Bissau). Their only confounding factor considered was "better nutritional status" and that was assessed only thru weight which makes the claim dubious. Feeding children unhealthy food also makes them put on weight.Maybe children in a "better nutritional status" mix more with other children and so pick up more ailments.
The authors claim that other studies show higher mortality with DTP but they only cite studies lead by Aaby. That hints at the well known confirmation bias or as already stated p-hacking the little data he got from the 1980's. A proper study would look at the introduction of DTP worldwide.

I made a mistake - the paper is about 1981 vaccinations but seems to be published in 2018 so the lack of citations is more understandable.

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Old 4th June 2019, 06:58 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
....
The authors claim that other studies show higher mortality with DTP but they only cite studies lead by Aaby. That hints at the well known confirmation bias or as already stated p-hacking the little data he got from the 1980's. A proper study would look at the introduction of DTP worldwide.

I made a mistake - the paper is about 1981 vaccinations but seems to be published in 2018 so the lack of citations is more understandable.

Yeah, Aaby has been pushing his theories about his 1980s studies for about a decade. He first came onto the radar in some random article. He is trying to get his own form of notoriety, one of his most recent appearances for "science freedom": https://breggin.com/G%C3%B8tzsche/19...-programme.pdf
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:03 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
How about aiming for the message instead of the messenger? Do you dispute the findings?

Yes, I dispute the findings. One: they are old. Two: Aaby is employing more p-hacking by strangling the math.


Three: The population of children in no way reflects the populations in North American and Europe, so have nothing to do with modern vaccines. Unless, of course, you can tell me if this describes Canada:
Quote:
Guinea-Bissau’s young and growing population is sustained by high fertility; approximately 60% of the population is under the age of 25. Its large reproductive-age population and total fertility rate of more than 4 children per woman offsets the country’s high infant and maternal mortality rates. The latter is among the world’s highest because of the prevalence of early childbearing, a lack of birth spacing, the high percentage of births outside of health care facilities, and a shortage of medicines and supplies.
Guinea-Bissau’s history of political instability, a civil war, and several coups (the latest in 2012) have resulted in a fragile state with a weak economy, high unemployment, rampant corruption, widespread poverty, and thriving drug and child trafficking. With the country lacking educational infrastructure, school funding and materials, and qualified teachers, and with the cultural emphasis placed on religious education, parents frequently send boys to study in residential Koranic schools (daaras) in Senegal and The Gambia. They often are extremely deprived and are forced into street begging or agricultural work by marabouts (Muslim religious teachers), who enrich themselves at the expense of the children. Boys who leave their marabouts often end up on the streets of Dakar or other large Senegalese towns and are vulnerable to even worse abuse.
Some young men lacking in education and job prospects become involved in the flourishing international drug trade. Local drug use and associated violent crime are growing.

That description is from https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/pu.html
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:05 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Have you fallen for the full antivaxer "one study" myth which includes every single vaccination that anyone can have, e.g. adult boosters ?

It seems he has:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I can't make that determination. It could well be true, but perhaps of limited value since it focuses only on one vaccine instead of the cumulative effects of all the vaccines a child has had.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:09 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Yeah, Aaby has been pushing his theories about his 1980s studies for about a decade.
Aaby does have credible science to his credit: Non-specific effect of vaccines

When we look for DTP non-specific effects the evidence is inconsistent (presumably including his studies) while the protection given is conclusive.

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Old 4th June 2019, 07:49 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Yes, I dispute the findings. One: they are old. Two: Aaby is employing more p-hacking by strangling the math.
Simply being old does not invalidate the findings. Please show some evidence to back your accusation against Aaby.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:56 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Aaby does have credible science to his credit: Non-specific effect of vaccines

When we look for DTP non-specific effects the evidence is inconsistent (presumably including his studies) while the protection given is conclusive.

That is all and good, but does not have much to do with the present day. Plus it is still just Aaby making claims with just his data while ignoring all other confounding variables.



Did you notice event was run by Peter Breggin of anti-psychiatry treatment fame? The other speaker has had a falling out with Cochrane: http://www.deadlymedicines.dk/.


The latter has been frequently here: https://badscience.net/forum/viewtop...992&start=5025
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:13 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
All that matters here is whether what I post is true or not. If I've posted a specific untruth, kindly point it out so that I may correct it.
That's your problem but you are basically and functionally in error. Also how much have you read so far in the Pipeline source I posted. Based on what you still want to be real, I think none or maybe .05% . You might as well be Jim Carrey's wife.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:17 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Please show some evidence to back your accusation against Aaby.
The p-hacking or data dredging is hard to show because the hacking is concealment of results that the hacker did not like.
Quote:
Data dredging (also data fishing, data snooping, data butchery, and p-hacking) is the misuse of data analysis to find patterns in data that can be presented as statistically significant when in fact there is no real underlying effect. This is done by performing many statistical tests on the data and only paying attention to those that come back with significant results, instead of stating a single hypothesis about an underlying effect before the analysis and then conducting a single test for it.
The papers are unsound because they skip textbook statistical analysis. There is a fundamental concept in statistical analysis called confounding factors "is a variable that influences both the dependent variable and independent variable, causing a spurious association". Now read the Aaby paper on the DTP vaccine and childhood mortality in 1981 in for children aged 6-35 months in Guinea-Bissau and look for the confounding factors. There are none. There are unsupported assumptions
  • Weight is a good indicator of nutritional health.
  • Children with high weights ("better nutritional health") will have less mortality than children with lower weights.
  • The effects come from the DTP vaccine when there were three DTP and OPV doses and measles vaccinations (MMR or single?).
  • That non-orphans were breastfed (likely but needed to be accounted for).
    "We excluded orphans, since they were not breastfed and were likely to have different care; their mortality was very high (10)."
Also look at the actual deaths:
Quote:
There were 42 deaths between 6 and 35 months of age; 14 had fever as the main symptom, 13 had diarrhea or diarrhea and vomiting, 6 died from measles, 1 had respiratory infection, 1 was malnourished, 1 had anemia, 1 did not eat, and 5 had no information, most likely because the mother/family had moved.
42 is a small number making a p-value unreliable.
Fever suggests diseases that maybe the better nutritional health group were more likely to catch because they had the energy to interact with more people.
Diarrhea and vomiting suggests food poisoning - guess who had access to the most food! - or diseases.

Last edited by Reality Check; 4th June 2019 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:28 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The p-hacking or data dredging is hard to show because the hacking is concealment of results that the hacker did not like.


The papers are unsound because they skip textbook statistical analysis. There is a fundamental concept in statistical analysis called confounding factors "is a variable that influences both the dependent variable and independent variable, causing a spurious association". Now read the Aaby paper on the DTP vaccine and childhood mortality in 1981 in for children aged 6-35 months in Guinea-Bissau and look for the confounding factors. There are none. There are unsupported assumptions
  • Weight is a good indicator of nutritional health.
  • Children with high weights ("better nutritional health") will have less mortality than children with lower weights.
  • The effects come from the DTP vaccine when there were three DTP and OPV doses.
  • That non-orphans were breastfed (likely but needed to be accounted for).
    "We excluded orphans, since they were not breastfed and were likely to have different care; their mortality was very high (10)."
So then, accusing someone of p-hacking is a great way to eliminate the burden of providing evidence.

And the NIH has no problem listing unsound studies? That would make the NIH untrustworthy, would it not?
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:34 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Simply being old does not invalidate the findings. Please show some evidence to back your accusation against Aaby.

Data taken in 1981. That is almost forty years ago.



The vaccine being written about, the DTP, is no longer used in most countries.



The population being studied has more reasons to die than any vaccine, nor vaccine preventable diseases. They mostly die from waterborne diseases, along with several infections like dengue, malaria, etc.



Have you ever traveled outside of North America or Europe? Have you visited anyplace with incredible poverty? We should create a fund to send you to Guinea-Bissau to survive on the economy with just $200: https://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/...au-INCOME.html



Then you will see why a direct comparison of children in North America and Europe versus those in one of the poorest countries in the world is ridiculous. Or not.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:48 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
RotaShield was also pronounced 'safe' before being taken off the market..
Ignorance about RotaShield which is a counterexample to a claim that low reporting makes the VAERS system unreliable.

RotaShield was approved as safe because it passed tests showing that it was as medically safe as possible. VAERS monitoring showed a temporal association with intussusception events in vaccinated infants.
Withdrawal of Rotavirus Vaccine Recommendation
Rotavirus vaccine withdrawal in the United States; The role of postmarketing surveillance
The withdrawal was based on 15 cases. The expected number of cases due to temporal association without causation was actually 14.7. It was the known under-reporting of intussusception events that lead to the withdrawal.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:52 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
...
Diarrhea and vomiting suggests food poisoning - guess who had access to the most food! - or diseases.

Or lack of access to uncontaminated water. From the CIA World Fact Book on Guinea-Bissau:
Quote:
Major infectious diseases:
degree of risk: very high (2016)
food or waterborne diseases: bacterial and protozoal diarrhea, hepatitis A, and typhoid fever (2016)
vectorborne diseases: malaria, dengue fever, and yellow fever (2016)
water contact diseases: schistosomiasis (2016)
animal contact diseases: rabies (2016)
It is not just food poisoning. Um, am I the only one seeing the actual issues with a very poor country without much infrastructure? Perhaps it is because I lived a third of my youth in South and Central America, even as a kid with privilege I recognized the available village water was contaminated with fecal matter. And yeah, that lesson was fully realized when I made a mistake to thinking the jug of water left in the room at an inn in Managua, Nicaragua was potable. My intestines expelled much of it on the side of a road in El Salvador.



The vaccine preventable diseases were there, but there are so many other ways for the kids to get sick/die there! I find it amusing and very sad that antivaccine folks claim that sanitation is why diseases went away, so NO vaccines are needed --- and then they pull out the Aaby studies! They cannot fathom that the sanitation that they cheered so much was not even available in Guinea-Bissau for most of the population.


I am all for creating a fund to send all those to Guinea-Bissau with just $200 to live on the economy if they cite the Aaby studies as evidence the American/Canadian/European/Australian/New Zealand vaccines are dangerous. And it will be a one way ticket, with no contact with their respective embassy.
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Last edited by Chris Haynes; 4th June 2019 at 09:54 PM. Reason: Added a very important "NO"
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:56 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Data taken in 1981. That is almost forty years ago.

The vaccine being written about, the DTP, is no longer used in most countries.

The population being studied has more reasons to die than any vaccine, nor vaccine preventable diseases. They mostly die from waterborne diseases, along with several infections like dengue, malaria, etc.

Have you ever traveled outside of North America or Europe? Have you visited anyplace with incredible poverty? We should create a fund to send you to Guinea-Bissau to survive on the economy with just $200: https://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/...au-INCOME.html

Then you will see why a direct comparison of children in North America and Europe versus those in one of the poorest countries in the world is ridiculous. Or not.
DTP either raises mortality or it doesn't. If it does, as the study shows, then the DTP shouldn't be used anywhere, in my opinion. If there are studies refuting Aaby's findings about DTP, where are they?

Of course mortality is higher in poor countries. No one disputes that. But the study didn't include anyone from Europe or North America. Only poor Africans.

A direct comparison of children in Europe and NA to those in poor countries is not ridiculous. It just isn't the subject of, or remotely relevant to the study.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:04 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
A self-selected control group. Not good.
Another problem is, the control group would know they are the control group. There's no way of doing a double-blind study.

Is it a fallacy, and is there a name for it, when someone sets a bar for proof so high that there is no realistic way to clear that bar?
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:07 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Ignorance about RotaShield which is a counterexample to a claim that low reporting makes the VAERS system unreliable.

RotaShield was approved as safe because it passed tests showing that it was as medically safe as possible. VAERS monitoring showed a temporal association with intussusception events in vaccinated infants.
Withdrawal of Rotavirus Vaccine Recommendation
Rotavirus vaccine withdrawal in the United States; The role of postmarketing surveillance
The withdrawal was based on 15 cases. The expected number of cases due to temporal association without causation was actually 14.7. It was the known under-reporting of intussusception events that lead to the withdrawal.
That VAERS caught it is good. Even unreliable systems work sometimes.
The original article I linked was short on hard numbers, but it did say that if the full compliment of vaccines had been given, an estimated 1600 cases of intussusception would have ensued.

Again, the real point about the RotaShield and DTP examples is that both vaccines were declared to be safe.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:14 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
DTP either raises mortality or it doesn't....

Even in countries where it is not even used?



Also which DTP? And what if not used with a BCG? Also, you are still ignoring the much higher chance of dying from other causes! Have you never left the confines of your comfy country? Egads, you never camped where you had to worry about Giardia, you just stayed in provincial/national parks with privies. None of that get off the grid stuff.



Oh, I so want to see you put on a plane to Guinea-Bissau with just $200 and the Canadian Embassy being told to ignore you.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:24 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Even in countries where it is not even used?



Also which DTP? And what if not used with a BCG? Also, you are still ignoring the much higher chance of dying from other causes! Have you never left the confines of your comfy country? Egads, you never camped where you had to worry about Giardia, you just stayed in provincial/national parks with privies. None of that get off the grid stuff.



Oh, I so want to see you put on a plane to Guinea-Bissau with just $200 and the Canadian Embassy being told to ignore you.
Do you have anything stronger than these non-sequitors to address the point being put forth?
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:38 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Do you have anything stronger than these non-sequitors to address the point being put forth?

Hilarious. So you even have a point? All I see is you saw a paper on a website, glommed onto it without understanding anything about history, vaccines, diseases and life in other countries. Mostly because you sit in your warm (or since it is June, air conditioned) house with electricity, a functioning fridge (and maybe a stand alone freezer), clean water and functional septic/sewer service surrounded by a mostly vaccinated population... in a country with a decent national public heath program.



And you claim data from one of the poorest countries in the world is relevant. Your ignorance from privilege is glaring.



From now on never claim vaccines were not needed to control diseases after sanitation became a thing. Because it does not exist for most of the poor people in Guinea-Bissau.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:01 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Hilarious. So you even have a point? All I see is you saw a paper on a website, glommed onto it without understanding anything about history, vaccines, diseases and life in other countries. Mostly because you sit in your warm (or since it is June, air conditioned) house with electricity, a functioning fridge (and maybe a stand alone freezer), clean water and functional septic/sewer service surrounded by a mostly vaccinated population... in a country with a decent national public heath program.



And you claim data from one of the poorest countries in the world is relevant. Your ignorance from privilege is glaring.



From now on never claim vaccines were not needed to control diseases after sanitation became a thing. Because it does not exist for most of the poor people in Guinea-Bissau.
The point is that vaccines that were deemed safe turned out not to be.
True or false?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:24 PM   #397
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Define "safe". People die from getting appendectomies. Does that mean that appendectomies are unsafe?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:26 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The point is that vaccines that were deemed safe turned out not to be.
True or false?

Safe where, and by whom and when?



So were the DTP vaccines used in Guinea-Bissau determined to be safe in the United States of America or in Canada after 2000? I believe that the DTaP was being used then.


So do you have a point as it pertains to your comfy chair sitting in front of a computer somewhere in Canada with electricity, running potable water, waste water treatment and being surrounded by those who vaccinate?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:36 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Safe where, and by whom and when?



So were the DTP vaccines used in Guinea-Bissau determined to be safe in the United States of America or in Canada after 2000? I believe that the DTaP was being used then.


So do you have a point as it pertains to your comfy chair sitting in front of a computer somewhere in Canada with electricity, running potable water, waste water treatment and being surrounded by those who vaccinate?
It was a 'true or false' question. I can't make out from this post which answer you chose.
Could you clarify?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:44 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Define "safe". People die from getting appendectomies. Does that mean that appendectomies are unsafe?
'Safe', in this case means that the appropriate regulating body has approved the vaccine for use.
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