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Old 11th June 2019, 11:21 PM   #721
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Videos are not scientific evidence. I don't even have to click on the link, but I did. It is stuff by Sin Hang Lee, who is someone who does not understand technology and DNA: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2013...fearmongering/
I wonder if you watched the video to hear Dr. Lee's side of the story in his own words?

If not, perhaps in this instance, RespectfulInsolence is doing some thinking for you?
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Old 11th June 2019, 11:44 PM   #722
Reality Check
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Thumbs down Ignores the content of a post again and resorts to an insult

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I wonder if you watched the video...
12 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Ignores the content of a post again and resorts to an insult.

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Videos are not scientific evidence. I don't even have to click on the link, but I did. It is stuff by Sin Hang Lee, who is someone who does not understand technology and DNA: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2013...fearmongering/
The point emphasized. Sceince is presented in journals where the details of a study are available. Lee talking about his results doe not tell us how he got those results. That is in his papers. And they have already been analyzed and found lacking.

People who think for themselves, read and understand science-based blogs, as Chris Haynes obviously did.
Gardasil DNA and aluminum – myth debunking time (2015)
Dr. Sin Hang Lee is at it again with his usual Gardasil fearmongering

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Old 12th June 2019, 12:25 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The phrase 'maternal education' from your link reminds me of 're-education camps' where people who disagreed with their government were sent.

So you didn't read the articles to see how they evaluated maternal education. Interesting.
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:32 AM   #724
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
The minutes of the ACIP meetings are all available online
Yes, but the working groups are not public - there's no transcription of their goings on. Only the reports they submit to ACIP are public.

Here's Plotkin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSrykwRXHc

50:30 ACIP meeting is public.
51:26 Working groups are not public and members are permitted conflict of interest
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:38 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
So you didn't read the articles to see how they evaluated maternal education. Interesting.
Since there's 'only one side to the vaccine story', I don't have to read the article to know which side is going to be in the curriculum.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:38 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
...I don't have to read the article to know....
Amazing, all the things you're exempt from having to do, yet somehow you're smarter than everyone else.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:46 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Amazing, all the things you're exempt from having to do, yet somehow you're smarter than everyone else.
In the thread about the current measles outbreak, Itchy Boy told us that an author had not said things in a particular article someone posted. It was immediately obvious to those of us that the author had very much included the things Itchy Boy said weren't there. Itchy Boy then explained that he considered the article to stupid to read beyond some point. But that didn't stop Itchy Boy from lying about the content of the article.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:36 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
In the thread about the current measles outbreak, Itchy Boy told us that an author had not said things in a particular article someone posted. It was immediately obvious to those of us that the author had very much included the things Itchy Boy said weren't there. Itchy Boy then explained that he considered the article to stupid to read beyond some point. But that didn't stop Itchy Boy from lying about the content of the article.
And this is why such an approach undermines any real interest in vaccine safety. If I were an Evil Pharma Executive trying to foist something whose safety I couldn't assure, the thing I would want most is to be able to point to my critics and say, "See what I mean? The people questioning us are lying, and paying no attention to the other side of the debate. Clearly they're biased and dishonest, so you should be very skeptical about any criticism of what I'm doing."

Since Itchy Boy's approach seems inconsistent with an honest concern over public safety, the curious reader will imagine other things with which that approach is consistent. But mention any of them and all of a sudden you're making scurrilous accusations that are beneath the dignity of a free exchange of ideas, and can therefore be safely ignored.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:37 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Since there's 'only one side to the vaccine story', I don't have to read the article to know which side is going to be in the curriculum.
What do you understand the word “vaccine” means, IB?
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:46 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Well, here's what ABC news has to say about people who choose not to vaccinate.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/parent...ry?id=60674519

"They tend to be better educated. They tend to be white, and they tend to be higher income. They tend to have larger families and they tend to use complementary and alternative medicine like chiropractors and naturopaths," Salmon said.
irrelevant, nothing to do with your topic.
lacking substantial argument you are resorting to shots in a dark room
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:47 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I read the first part of your link and skimmed some more of it. It's not germane to my point, as I keep trying to explain. I'm not arguing about risk vs benefits. I'm not saying that vaccines don't save lives.

I'm only saying that a pharma product was deemed safe, then found to be unsafe after it was too late for a lot of people. And that's why choice is important.

The benefits outweigh the risks only for people who aren't harmed by a vaccine or drug. For those who are harmed, the risk/benefit ratio is moot.

ETA: I never claimed any conspiracy. Corruption, conflict of interest, manipulation of data etc were described in the FDA 9 letter. I don't assume those problems stop at the FDA.
Move the goal posts much?
Risk benefit is exactly what vaccines are about.
Your fanaticism is showing again
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The phrase 'maternal education' from your link reminds me of 're-education camps' where people who disagreed with their government were sent.
The phrase death, disability and substantial risk of harm is what happens in your Vaccine Choice Camp
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:56 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Since there's 'only one side to the vaccine story', I don't have to read the article to know which side is going to be in the curriculum.
Evidence be damned, you just assert you know the truth!
Master level fanatic unlocked!
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:50 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post

<snipped>

ETA: I never claimed any conspiracy. Corruption, conflict of interest, manipulation of data etc were described in the FDA 9 letter. I don't assume those problems stop at the FDA.

Don't be too hasty. Your initial arguments having been debunked, it's all you have left at this point.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Yes, but the working groups are not public - there's no transcription of their goings on. Only the reports they submit to ACIP are public.

Here's Plotkin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSrykwRXHc

50:30 ACIP meeting is public.
51:26 Working groups are not public and members are permitted conflict of interest

And yet, I already told you multiple times videos are not evidence, especially those of a lawyer badgering an elderly man. The only acceptable evidence would be peer reviewed papers in reputable journals by qualified researchers not on the payroll of any antivaccine entity like the Dwoskin family, Safe Minds or SaneVax.


And yet you keep dragging in the same idiotic conspiracy ridden nonsense from random antivaccine websites we have seen over and over and over again. I am especially amused by your personal vendetta over the the Food and Drug Administration that is only responsible for policies in the United States of America, while you live in Canada. The country that approved for use an MMR vaccine with the Urabe mumps strain... which was cheaper but caused more aseptic meningitis than the Jeryl Lynn strain.


I loved how you then complained you cannot find out about the Canadian equivalent of the FDA because apparently your laws do not allow that. And yet the FDA is to blame for everything, even though none of the "links" had nothing to do with vaccines.


But what can you expect when it is someone who failed to see how 1980s data on a vaccine no longer in use in one of the poorest countries on this planet on children who lived without clean water, etc had nothing to do with vaccine safety in North America and Europe.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:34 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
In the thread about the current measles outbreak, Itchy Boy told us that an author had not said things in a particular article someone posted. It was immediately obvious to those of us that the author had very much included the things Itchy Boy said weren't there. Itchy Boy then explained that he considered the article to stupid to read beyond some point. But that didn't stop Itchy Boy from lying about the content of the article.
Something similar in this thread too, re Aaby+ (2018): IB claimed the paper showed, or proved, causation not correlation (it clearly reports correlation, and significant for only one of the associations identified). I suspect, but do not know, that IB did not read the paper (beyond the Abstract); in any case, I think it’s obvious that IB would struggle mightily to understand it.
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:52 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
And yet, I already told you multiple times videos are not evidence, especially those of a lawyer badgering an elderly man. The only acceptable evidence would be peer reviewed papers in reputable journals by qualified researchers not on the payroll of any antivaccine entity like the Dwoskin family, Safe Minds or SaneVax.
I wonder where I could obtain peer reviewed papers proving that the activities of ACIP working groups are not public?

In the video, Plotkin confirms that working group activities are not public - only their reports are.
Why is the video insufficient to verify this small detail?
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Old 12th June 2019, 11:59 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
I am especially amused by your personal vendetta over the the Food and Drug Administration that is only responsible for policies in the United States of America, while you live in Canada. The country that approved for use an MMR vaccine with the Urabe mumps strain... which was cheaper but caused more aseptic meningitis than the Jeryl Lynn strain.
What has nationalism got to do with it? Do I personally share any blame for Canada's approval of MMR?
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:30 PM   #739
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post

I loved how you then complained you cannot find out about the Canadian equivalent of the FDA because apparently your laws do not allow that. And yet the FDA is to blame for everything, even though none of the "links" had nothing to do with vaccines.

I didn't say laws prevented me from getting information. I just said I didn't have any information. What I said about laws being passed to curtail freedom of speech was just an aside. It was not the reason I have no info.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:02 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I didn't say laws prevented me from getting information. I just said I didn't have any information. What I said about laws being passed to curtail freedom of speech was just an aside. It was not the reason I have no info.
Seems that it hasn't restricted you from posting nonsense.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:11 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Seems that it hasn't restricted you from posting nonsense.
Another allegation with no supporting evidence. I've lost count of how many such posts have been made.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:39 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Another allegation with no supporting evidence. I've lost count of how many such posts have been made.
maybe you should read your own posts!
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:43 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Another allegation with no supporting evidence.
Apparently you cannot read posts ! The nonsense that you have posted:
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:54 PM   #744
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Paranoia about the standard practices of working groups, e.g. ACIP

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Here's Plotkin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSrykwRXHc

50:30 ACIP meeting is public.
51:26 Working groups are not public and members are permitted conflict of interest
A lie about what Plotkin says in the disposition video..
  • 49:52 Plotkin is handed a report that he has never seen before.
  • 50:36 1. CDC certainly recently has bent over backwards to try to avoid people with conflict of interest being on ACIP.
  • 50:41 2. ACIP meets under public conditions - meeting is open to the public, meeting is on the web, thousands of people literally can observe ...
  • 51:20 I wish more people with vaccine knowledge were on the ACIP but by and large they do a hell of a good job under public scrutiny.
  • 51:26 Working groups are not public in the sense that the public does not attend. The working groups present to the ACIP and these are public. Discussions and conversations in the working groups are not transcribed.
  • 52:20 There may [be conflicts in the general sense of the attorney's question] but I object to the word rubberstamp ...
This is common practice. Working groups work! They do not want the distraction of people wandering in and out. Working groups argue! They do not want possible public misinterpretation of the arguments. Working groups discuss technical points! They do not want possible public misinterpretation of these technical points.

Plotkin says that conflicts of interest may exist, not that they are permitted in working groups.

13 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Paranoia about the standard practices of working groups, e.g. ACIP.

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Old 12th June 2019, 02:25 PM   #745
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Since this thread started at least 7 children have died because a parent left them in a hot car.

Just some perspective about what constitutes safe.

[Clearly the most dangerous element in a child's life is a thoughtless parent]
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:36 PM   #746
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Well, here's what ABC news has to say about people who choose not to vaccinate.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/parent...ry?id=60674519
Missed this irrelevant lie by quote mining.
Quote:
Vaccines are universally backed by respected scientists and federal agencies, but that isn’t enough to convince every parent to vaccinate their children.

The decision to fly in the face of near universal scientific opinion doesn't come as a result of a lack of intellect, however, as experts who have studied vaccines and immunology acknowledge that many parents who don't vaccinate their children are well-educated.

They also appear to be the victims of a widespread misinformation campaign, the experts said.
The article is saying that better educated (and white/higher income/larger family) people tend to find the misinformation spread by antivaxers on legitimate-looking web sites.
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Old 12th June 2019, 02:40 PM   #747
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Since this thread started at least 7 children have died because a parent left them in a hot car.

Just some perspective about what constitutes safe.

[Clearly the most dangerous element in a child's life is a thoughtless parent]
I wonder how many would have died from the vaccines they received, had their parents not killed them first? Perhaps IB can tell us.

[not wanting in any way to downplay the hot car tragedies]
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:42 PM   #748
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Missed this irrelevant lie by quote mining.

The article is saying that better educated (and white/higher income/larger family) people tend to find the misinformation spread by antivaxers on legitimate-looking web sites.
Are there any peer reviewed studies that show the better educated and more affluent are too stupid to spot misinformation?
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:50 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Are there any peer reviewed studies that show the better educated and more affluent are too stupid to spot misinformation?

Possibly. But what you need to produce is are PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that any vaccine on present schedule of either the USA or Canada causes more harm than the disease.



If you want to bring up Plotkin, go ahead. Just post the PMID of one of many many papers he has written. Just no more videos of him being badgered by a lawyer who has so far failed his client.



Because all of your videos, news reports and innuendo stuff is just a bunch of nonsense. They are not going to answer your question if vaccines are as safe as can be. The only thing that will answer that question are actual studies showing both efficacy and safety.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:26 PM   #750
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Possibly. But what you need to produce is are PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that any vaccine on present schedule of either the USA or Canada causes more harm than the disease.

If you want to bring up Plotkin, go ahead. Just post the PMID of one of many many papers he has written. Just no more videos of him being badgered by a lawyer who has so far failed his client.

Because all of your videos, news reports and innuendo stuff is just a bunch of nonsense. They are not going to answer your question if vaccines are as safe as can be. The only thing that will answer that question are actual studies showing both efficacy and safety.
To your first point - I never claimed that.

To your second point - again I ask, why is the video not enough to verify a small detail about the working groups?

To your third point, again, the thread title was a poor choice and I've several times suggested a replacement.
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:05 PM   #751
Reality Check
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Thumbs down Irrelevant question to detail from his quote mining a "misinformation" article

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Are there any peer reviewed studies that show the better educated and more affluent are too stupid to spot misinformation?
12 Jun 2019 Itchy Boy: Irrelevant question to detail from his quote mining a "vaccine misinformation" article.
Parents who don't vaccinate kids tend to be affluent, better educated, experts say
Quote:
The decision to fly in the face of near universal scientific opinion doesn't come as a result of a lack of intellect, however, as experts who have studied vaccines and immunology acknowledge that many parents who don't vaccinate their children are well-educated.

They also appear to be the victims of a widespread misinformation campaign, the experts said.

Daniel Salmon, who is the director of the Institute of Vaccine Safety at Johns Hopkins University, said that existing research suggests that there are some common attributes that many parents who choose not to vaccinate their children share.

"They tend to be better educated. They tend to be white, and they tend to be higher income. They tend to have larger families and they tend to use complementary and alternative medicine like chiropractors and naturopaths," Salmon said.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:13 PM   #752
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
To your second point - again I ask, why is the video not enough to verify a small detail about the working groups?
Because is makes it easier for you to lie about that "small detail about the working groups". It just may (Plotkin's actual word) happen that conflict of interests may slip through even though the "CDC certainly recently has bent over backwards to try to avoid people with conflict of interest being on ACIP." - Plotkin's actual words.

You lied that Plotkin said that conflicts of interest were permitted.

13 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Paranoia about the standard practices of working groups, e.g. ACIP.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:23 PM   #753
Itchy Boy
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The people in this thread are obviously 'better educated', if not affluent as well. The people here have not 'fallen victim to misinformation'.

So I wonder what the difference is? Why are more and more well educated people out there falling for vaccine 'misinformation'?
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:25 PM   #754
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Since there's 'only one side to the vaccine story', I don't have to read the article to know which side is going to be in the curriculum.
One side: 60 years of Medical Science.

Other side: Quasi-Witchcraft.

*smart witches vaccinate their kids, and get flu, and tetanus shots*
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:28 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
<snip>

To your second point - again I ask, why is the video not enough to verify a small detail about the working groups?
There is Spanish gold buried in my neighbor’s back yard.

How do I know?

Cause my sister’s ex’s nephew’s pool guy (yeah the nephew is filthy rich) said so, over a beer.

Or was it from me doing statistical (and more) analyses on scraped data from a paper published in a leading, peer-reviewed archaeology journal?

My actual source is totally irrelevant, right? The gold is either there or not there, and until someone posts proof that the pool guy did not say there was, I’m gonna keep claiming there is.

(My neighbor is gun crazy, so I have no intention of using a metal detector on his land, at ~02:00, say, to find out by direct means).

Quote:
To your third point, again, the thread title was a poor choice and I've several times suggested a replacement.
True.

But it did take you four days to first say so, and in that time you wrote ~46 other posts.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:35 PM   #756
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The people in this thread are obviously 'better educated', if not affluent as well. The people here have not 'fallen victim to misinformation'.
Yeah, obviously

Quote:
So I wonder what the difference is? Why are more and more well educated people out there falling for vaccine 'misinformation'?
Let’s play “numbers”, shall we?

The population - general and well educated - is growing. So, cet. par., more and more will fall for it.

Let’s play history, shall we?

It’s only an apparent trend; we have more reliable data today than in the past.

And so on ...
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:43 PM   #757
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Because is makes it easier for you to lie about that "small detail about the working groups". It just may (Plotkin's actual word) happen that conflict of interests may slip through even though the "CDC certainly recently has bent over backwards to try to avoid people with conflict of interest being on ACIP." - Plotkin's actual words.

You lied that Plotkin said that conflicts of interest were permitted.

13 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Paranoia about the standard practices of working groups, e.g. ACIP.
"CDC certainly recently has bent over backwards to try to avoid people with conflict of interest being on ACIP."

Recently? Oh, good. They're finally addressing that.

The working groups are not on ACIP - they report to ACIP.
It's the working groups where conflict of interest is allowed.
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:19 PM   #758
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
If you want to bring up Plotkin, go ahead. Just post the PMID of one of many many papers he has written. Just no more videos of him being badgered by a lawyer who has so far failed his client.
I'm using Plotkin mostly to verify certain details that there are no studies for.
For example, studies showing that working groups are not public. Characterizing the deposition as 'an old man being badgered' doesn't invalidate what is said.

The defence council was present at the deposition and was free to raise an objection at any time.

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Because all of your videos, news reports and innuendo stuff is just a bunch of nonsense. They are not going to answer your question if vaccines are as safe as can be. The only thing that will answer that question are actual studies showing both efficacy and safety.

If, as the FDA whistleblowers claim, managers have "suppressed or altered scientific or technological findings and conclusions" then how can we blindly and unquestioningly accept every study as being unaltered? How do we know what findings and conclusions have been suppressed?
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:28 PM   #759
Reality Check
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Thumbs down Ignorance of the ACIP - the working groups are the ACIP committee

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
"CDC certainly recently has bent over backwards to try to avoid people with conflict of interest being on ACIP."
...
The working groups are not on ACIP - they report to ACIP.
13 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Paranoia about the standard practices of working groups, e.g. ACIP.
13 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Repeated lie of permitted/allowed conflict of interest in ACIP working groups.
13 June 2019 Itchy Boy: Ignorance of the ACIP - the working groups are the ACIP committee!

That is generally what a working group in committees means. A committee breaks up into smaller parts called groups to work on different issues. The committee gets back together and the groups report.

ACIP Work Groups
Quote:
ACIP uses subgroups of the Committee, known as Work Groups, to review relevant published and unpublished data and develop recommendation options for presentation to the ACIP. The goal of ACIP Work Groups is to increase the effectiveness of ACIP.

Last edited by Reality Check; 12th June 2019 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 12th June 2019, 08:45 PM   #760
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I'm using Plotkin mostly to verify certain details that there are no studies for.
For example, studies showing that working groups are not public. Characterizing the deposition as 'an old man being badgered' doesn't invalidate what is said.

The defence council was present at the deposition and was free to raise an objection at any time.

<snip>
You may have heard of “The Central Park Five”.

Yes, there are significant details which differ. But maybe not so many?

Could it be that, here in the SMM&T board of the ISF, there are good reasons for insisting on papers published in relevant peer-reviewed journals as primary sources?
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