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Old 15th June 2019, 05:42 AM   #81
abaddon
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The steps are steps you take to recover from your addiction. God doesn't take those steps, you do.
And you are wrong. The steps explicitly state that it is NOT anything to do with yourself.

Step 1:We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

Step one explicitly states that the individual has bugger all control.

Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Step two explicitly hands over power to an external agent. It is a fundamental abdication of personal responsibility.

Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Yay. Blatant theism.

Step 4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

No issue there

Step 5: Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Oh here we go. No God there, no sir.

Step 6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

And now it is God's problem, not the individuals. If only they had faith enough.

Step 7: Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

And now we have to worship him/her/it/housecat and bend the knee.

Step 8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Step 9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Valid.

Step 10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Well, duh.

Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Wow. Talk about grovelling.

Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Invitation to proselytize

Now brothers and sisters let us conclude with the lords prayer (Yes, they do that at every meeting).

It is simply another example of the religious preying on the most vulnerable. Pretending it is anything else is just stupid.

So what about their success rate? It has been measured. It is the single worst method for recovery. It is worse than spontaneous recovery.
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Old 15th June 2019, 02:17 PM   #82
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If you want to stop drinking it's worth a shot, IMO. If your goal is moderation, there are other options. I would suggest checking out a few different meetings because you may relate better to some people than others.

Caricatures of AA are often inaccurate.
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Old 15th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If you want to stop drinking it's worth a shot, IMO. If your goal is moderation, there are other options. I would suggest checking out a few different meetings because you may relate better to some people than others.

Caricatures of AA are often inaccurate.
If you're a Christian/theist or someone who can simply don't care about the obvious religious themes, I can see how these programs could work. Although, my guess, it is the support group of others going through the same issues that offers the greatest benefits.

I personally would have a hell of a time trying to recover with it. People don't choose their beliefs. You either believe something or not.

You can tell me all day that there are invisible fairies that are in charge of our lives and if I think it's a crock, no amount of coercion is likely to change my mind. I may "go along" because I have to but I'm not likely to be vested in my recovery.

And that is the crux of the problem. Isn't it hard enough to get those with substance abuse problems to be committed in the first place?
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Old 15th June 2019, 05:40 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If you're a Christian/theist or someone who can simply don't care about the obvious religious themes, I can see how these programs could work. Although, my guess, it is the support group of others going through the same issues that offers the greatest benefits.
Yep, there is a ready-made network that's free and accessible to anyone.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I personally would have a hell of a time trying to recover with it. People don't choose their beliefs. You either believe something or not.
In the 1930s, positing a "God of your understanding" was actually quite a liberal concept. That's changed over time, obviously, and it now reeks of excessive religiosity.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You can tell me all day that there are invisible fairies that are in charge of our lives and if I think it's a crock, no amount of coercion is likely to change my mind. I may "go along" because I have to but I'm not likely to be vested in my recovery.
That coercion is not coming from AA.

I tried to research if meetings in different parts of the country are more religious than others. But I think it would be somewhat self-correcting. An individual might get preachy - "You gotta believe or you're going to die!" - but in my experience they'll be asked to wrap it up after a couple of minutes. Then someone else might say, "For me, the important thing was finding something I could believe in."

If you can do it on willpower alone, that's fine too. But apparently it wasn't OK with the BC board of nursing.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And that is the crux of the problem. Isn't it hard enough to get those with substance abuse problems to be committed in the first place?
There is IMO a misconception of what AA is for. It's not about saving someone else's skin, it's about saving your own. If you can help someone else in the process, terrific.

Internally there are controversies - nonsmoking meetings once had vehement detractors - but it's worked out within an AA framework of governance. I've noticed many groups no longer close with the Lord's Prayer. But they're not going to rewrite the steps just to avoid triggering atheists. At least, not yet.

The guy in the OP has suffered psychosis, nearly died of a heroin overdose in another incident and has lost not just his job but his registration to be a professional nurse. Reading between the lines, I think he might be looking for a way to use more safely. And there may be one. He has tried naltrexone, which actually requires you to drink again to reach "extinction." It's fine as part of a recovery plan, but by itself, it's not a plan.

This guy had a doctor-supplied plan that I'm certain had components other than just going to AA - probably including professional counseling, maybe including naltrexone. As for meetings, sometimes it is useful to go through the motions. That might sound absurd, but it demonstrates a commitment to recovery. And he might make a friend, or help someone else.

One workaround is to have new hires read and sign an employee handbook disclosing typical terms of a medical treatment plan.

I've heard AA is more secular in Australia than it is in the U.S. I suspect the same is true in Canada. Although Agnostic AA was taken off the Toronto meeting list, it still uses "AA" on its own website. These are accommodations that have evolved over time. Many AA members are sensitive to reducing perceived barriers to the program's usefulness.

I got carried away with my sermon but I'm just trying to illustrate that the situation is much more nuanced than "AA forces atheists to pray" - which is not true to begin with.
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Old 16th June 2019, 12:15 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
There is IMO a misconception of what AA is for. It's not about saving someone else's skin, it's about saving your own. If you can help someone else in the process, terrific.
You should read the AA Twelve Traditions.

Quote:
Tradition #1 Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

[Long Form]
Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.
AA unity comes first. Failure to conform means probable death.

Sounds like a creepy-ass cult to me.
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Old 16th June 2019, 12:36 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
You should read the AA Twelve Traditions.



AA unity comes first. Failure to conform means probable death.

Sounds like a creepy-ass cult to me.
That would be because it is a creepy ass cult.

If one has a working method for recovery from anything, why is it's measured success rate actually worse than nothing at all?
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Old 16th June 2019, 02:15 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Senex View Post
You should read the AA Twelve Traditions.



AA unity comes first. Failure to conform means probable death.
The traditions are talking about traditions of the organization. In practice unity means that the organization as a whole does not get involved in public controversies. Meanwhile accommodations like the one in Toronto speak to what happens in practice: Toronto governance elected not to put Agnostic AA in its meeting list, but Agnostic AA still calls itself "Agnostic AA."
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Old 16th June 2019, 02:48 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That would be because it is a creepy ass cult.

If one has a working method for recovery from anything, why is it's measured success rate actually worse than nothing at all?
There's a long, long thread from a few years back that examines in detail how various entities arrived at those success rates. Some measure success as reduced or moderated drinking. If that works for someone, great. It's not how AA measures success, largely because AA doesn't measure success. It's a collection of anecdotes.

Medical boards don't seem to have much patience with their practitioners experimenting with moderation once they've been diagnosed with a disorder. I can't blame them.

Earlier you said:
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Now brothers and sisters let us conclude with the lords prayer (Yes, they do that at every meeting).
No they don't. The errors of fact people make bug me, which they probably shouldn't. My best attitude for recovery is that your attitude is none of my business.

AA by long tradition will not step up to defend itself from people jeering at it. Many people can find reasons to reject it. For example, one poster is against the 9th step, while you find it perfectly valid. Here's a fable about a man and his son trying to cross a river with a donkey. Trying to please everyone, they manage to drown the donkey.

Last edited by Minoosh; 16th June 2019 at 02:51 PM. Reason: Fixed link
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Old 17th June 2019, 01:01 PM   #89
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
No they don't. The errors of fact people make bug me, which they probably shouldn't. My best attitude for recovery is that your attitude is none of my business.
Yes. They do. Eye/ear witness right here.
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Old 17th June 2019, 02:33 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes. They do. Eye/ear witness right here.
No, they don't say the Lord's Prayer at every meeting. Groups adopt formats, formats can change over time.

Have you ever actually heard anyone at an AA meeting say, "Brothers and sisters"? It's possible, but I've never encountered that.

Last edited by Minoosh; 17th June 2019 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
No, they don't say the Lord's Prayer at every meeting. Groups adopt formats, formats can change over time.

Have you ever actually heard anyone at an AA meeting say, "Brothers and sisters"? It's possible, but I've never encountered that.
Yes. It is commonplace in the AA movement. I have seen it and heard it. Now what?
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:04 PM   #92
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I've never seen "brothers and sisters," but I have seen many, many many AA meetings at the VA where I used to volunteer - At the end of the meeting someone says "Who's father" and they all respond "Our father...." and go on to finish the prayer. Some of the other ones do the serenity prayer instead, or the member running the meeting gets to choose between the two.
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Old 18th June 2019, 12:19 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yes. It is commonplace in the AA movement. I have seen it and heard it. Now what?
Now nothing, I guess. I have never heard anything like that in hundreds of meetings.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:11 AM   #94
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I like the DFD groups
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:34 AM   #95
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The real trick to recovery is getting whatever help you need before the state or your employer is involved, before the car crash is best. It's really hard to explain dead bodies while blitzed drunk.

A few friends of mine figured it out and didn't get the states scarlet letter, went on to improved lives. Most had superman syndrome so badly they didn't need to change, a few fell out of the parts of society that demanded sobriety.

Those that got caught suffered the whizdumb of state run programs, those that fought it and 'won' got worse. States need revenue to keep offices staffed and the guys in the system give a lot of money.
Social worker and parole officers know how to justify their positions.
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:24 PM   #96
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https://aabeyondbelief.org/

"This group of A.A. attempts to maintain a tradition of free expression, and conduct a meeting where alcoholics may feel free to express any doubts or disbeliefs they may have, and to share their own personal form of spiritual experience, their search for it, or their rejection of it. We do not endorse or oppose any form of religion or atheism. Our only wish is to assure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in A.A. without having to accept anyone else’s beliefs or having to deny their own."

Agnostic AA Preamble

Having watched alcohol/drugs take people that I love, I don't care what thought process someone uses to get clean
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Old 19th June 2019, 02:17 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Having watched alcohol/drugs take people that I love, I don't care what thought process someone uses to get clean
That's a very kind thing to say. Thank you.
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Old 19th June 2019, 07:43 PM   #98
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I don't either. I thought the subject of the thread was courts forcing people to participate in programs with plainly religious overtones. I object to that. Like I said, I worked at a rehab center that used the 12-step method, told people it wouldn't be religious, then made them use religious language and weird submissive mentalities. Anything required by courts should be completely (not just ostensibly) secular, in my opinion, period.

I was never talking about meetings people go to of their own accord. Why would I care what AA does with people who freely choose it? I listed some of my personal reasons for not liking its methodology, but I also don't like superhero movies. I'm not advocating for their removal from society.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:58 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I don't either. I thought the subject of the thread was courts forcing people to participate in programs with plainly religious overtones. I object to that. Like I said, I worked at a rehab center that used the 12-step method, told people it wouldn't be religious, then made them use religious language and weird submissive mentalities. Anything required by courts should be completely (not just ostensibly) secular, in my opinion, period.

I was never talking about meetings people go to of their own accord. Why would I care what AA does with people who freely choose it? I listed some of my personal reasons for not liking its methodology, but I also don't like superhero movies. I'm not advocating for their removal from society.
Re: the highlighted: Who "made them use religious language?" How were they forced to use "weird submissive mentalities?

As far as I know, AA doesn't require attendees to use religious language or weird submissive mentalities.

A quibble, he is making the claim against his employer. I'd be curious if there was an employees' handbook that spelled out what would happen if staffers were diagnosed with a substance abuse disorder.
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Old 20th June 2019, 11:56 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I like the DFD groups
Got it. I was pretty sure you weren't talking about data-flow diagrams.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:01 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If you want to stop drinking it's worth a shot, IMO.
Not statistically, it's not.
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Old 20th June 2019, 12:48 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Re: the highlighted: Who "made them use religious language?" How were they forced to use "weird submissive mentalities?

As far as I know, AA doesn't require attendees to use religious language or weird submissive mentalities.

A quibble, he is making the claim against his employer. I'd be curious if there was an employees' handbook that spelled out what would happen if staffers were diagnosed with a substance abuse disorder.
The people running the program. The counselors and the people who reported to them. If residents didn't cooperate with the group mantras (prayers) and participate in the activities (which centered around the steps), they weren't allowed to "graduate" from rehab.

I always found that troublesome.

I'm not insulting you, AA, or the meetings you went to. My understanding is that there is wide variation in how individual meetings are conducted. I'm sure it's also influenced by location.
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Old 20th June 2019, 03:39 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
The people running the program. The counselors and the people who reported to them. If residents didn't cooperate with the group mantras (prayers) and participate in the activities (which centered around the steps), they weren't allowed to "graduate" from rehab.

I always found that troublesome.

I'm not insulting you, AA, or the meetings you went to. My understanding is that there is wide variation in how individual meetings are conducted. I'm sure it's also influenced by location.
And I'm saying, don't conflate the treatment industry with AA, which doesn't "make" you do anything. It won't withhold your diploma, it won't "require" complete abstinence (as was stated in one of the OP links) and it doesn't force you to believe in God. Attendees will be encouraged to find something they believe in, but it doesn't have to be anything supernatural.
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Old 20th June 2019, 03:41 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not statistically, it's not.
Anecdotally, it is.
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Old 20th June 2019, 04:54 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Anecdotally, it is.
Minoosh, I read this thread last week, posted once, then disappeared for a while. I appreciate you correcting - at least attempting to - many of the misconceptions about AA. The caricatures of AA are just that, caricatures.

AA is not "run" by anyone. The point of AA is not to coerce anyone to do or believe anything. Not all AA meetings conclude with the Lord's Prayer - though some do. AA does not promote anything resembling a religion. AA is not supported by the government or by any church. If a meeting takes place in a church it will often make a donation or pay rent to the church.

AA has saved many, many lives and helped a whole lot of people. There is something off putting to me about someone who is not an alcoholic, who has no experience with the desperation alcoholics put themselves and their loved ones through, and who objects on a theoretical basis to AA as a solution. AA does not work for everyone and it does not have a high success rate. I don't know of any approach that is widely accepted to have a high success rate. Nonetheless, AA does work for many.
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:07 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who ****** cares? You've got a serious substance abuse problem. You've had a psychotic break and you're about to lose your job. Say the words, go through the steps, get recovery, and get your job back. If that's what you want.

If that's what you want.
He specifically asked for a secular alternative. His doctor refused to accommodate. This isn't complicated.
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Old 20th June 2019, 05:35 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And I'm saying, don't conflate the treatment industry with AA, which doesn't "make" you do anything. It won't withhold your diploma, it won't "require" complete abstinence (as was stated in one of the OP links) and it doesn't force you to believe in God. Attendees will be encouraged to find something they believe in, but it doesn't have to be anything supernatural.
Fine, but what I was saying was still relevant to the thread topic, which is courts ordering treatments that involve religious elements. I was saying that yes, I saw that happen in relation to the 12-step method, and it bugged me. The center also used the AA "big book." So that's the only reason I commented - because often, 12-step stuff is religious even if it claims it isn't. My original post in the thread was talking about how people at this rehab center would explicitly tell concerned atheists and agnostics that would be no religion, and then there WERE ridiculous amounts of religion. And if you objected, you didn't always "pass."

Rehab institutions and programs shouldn't misrepresent themselves like that, and judges shouldn't order people who object to religion to go to places or programs like that. That's my point.

Last edited by isissxn; 20th June 2019 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:25 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Rehab institutions and programs shouldn't misrepresent themselves like that, and judges shouldn't order people who object to religion to go to places or programs like that. That's my point.
Do you think AA misrepresents itself in that regard?

Last edited by Minoosh; 20th June 2019 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 10:15 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
AA has saved many, many lives and helped a whole lot of people. There is something off putting to me about someone who is not an alcoholic, who has no experience with the desperation alcoholics put themselves and their loved ones through, and who objects on a theoretical basis to AA as a solution. AA does not work for everyone and it does not have a high success rate. I don't know of any approach that is widely accepted to have a high success rate. Nonetheless, AA does work for many.
What I object to is the idea that AA is coercive and/or sneaky. Addiction is a stubborn disease/disorder/whatever that often needs to be addressed on multiple fronts. AA isn't even "treatment." It's a support group for people who find it helpful. It co-exists at present with meetings that call themselves agnostic or secular (but still 12-step based), as well as non-12-step-based programs. These are available in Vancouver but I'm not sure about the rest of B.C.

The effectiveness measures cited here come in part from the fact that some problem drinkers will benefit quite a lot from a "brief intervention," such as a doctor spelling out the health effects or a 6-week CBT outpatient group run by a professional facilitator. For some lucky folks that's all it takes.

Others benefit from a more comprehensive, longer-term course of action and strong social support is part of that. So, often, is an emphasis on "spirituality" and emotional growth. Yes, it will encourage a period of "abstinence" but it is not required, as the OP links mistakenly stated. (SMART Recovery also stresses the importance of abstinence).

If someone wants to stay sober or "drink responsibly" just to spite AA that's fine too .
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:47 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What I object to is the idea that AA is coercive and/or sneaky. Addiction is a stubborn disease/disorder/whatever that often needs to be addressed on multiple fronts. AA isn't even "treatment." It's a support group for people who find it helpful. It co-exists at present with meetings that call themselves agnostic or secular (but still 12-step based), as well as non-12-step-based programs. These are available in Vancouver but I'm not sure about the rest of B.C.

The effectiveness measures cited here come in part from the fact that some problem drinkers will benefit quite a lot from a "brief intervention," such as a doctor spelling out the health effects or a 6-week CBT outpatient group run by a professional facilitator. For some lucky folks that's all it takes.

Others benefit from a more comprehensive, longer-term course of action and strong social support is part of that. So, often, is an emphasis on "spirituality" and emotional growth. Yes, it will encourage a period of "abstinence" but it is not required, as the OP links mistakenly stated. (SMART Recovery also stresses the importance of abstinence).

If someone wants to stay sober or "drink responsibly" just to spite AA that's fine too .

Be interested to see what those alternate agnostic/secular steps are, replacing the 6 or so referring to God in the AA original version.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interested to see what those alternate agnostic/secular steps are, replacing the 6 or so referring to God in the AA original version.
Be interested to see your report on the research you do, for this interesting question. I'm guessing you'll probably start with a Google search (or similar) of the term "secular aa programs". But please don't let me dictate your research methodology.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:14 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Be interested to see your report on the research you do, for this interesting question. I'm guessing you'll probably start with a Google search (or similar) of the term "secular aa programs". But please don't let me dictate your research methodology.

Once again you demonstrate your lack of comprehension prestigious one. Did I say I was going into some heavy research on the subject? No, given that Minoosh mentioned the existence of such groups, I had hoped he/she would fill us in.

Oh, don't let me discourage you from doing your own research theprestige, and please give us the benefit of your knowledge, regarding research methodology. I am sure we will all benefit from this.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:39 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Once again you demonstrate your lack of comprehension prestigious one. Did I say I was going into some heavy research on the subject? No, given that Minoosh mentioned the existence of such groups, I had hoped he/she would fill us in.



Oh, don't let me discourage you from doing your own research theprestige, and please give us the benefit of your knowledge, regarding research methodology. I am sure we will all benefit from this.
It's not an interesting question to me.

I figure if you are interested, nothing stops you from doing your own research, just to see if Minoosh is onto something. Doesn't have to be heavy. You only need to go as far as your interest actually takes you.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:57 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interested to see what those alternate agnostic/secular steps are, replacing the 6 or so referring to God in the AA original version.
They're included in sites I've already linked to.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:12 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
They're included in sites I've already linked to.

Nice cop out. I went back through a number of your posts and only found a link to an agnostic 12 step group with no details. I would have to go to a meeting to get that.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:50 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Nice cop out. I went back through a number of your posts and only found a link to an agnostic 12 step group with no details. I would have to go to a meeting to get that.
Try restarting your browser.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 07:05 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
They're included in sites I've already linked to.
I found them very easily at the link you provided.

Last edited by whoanellie; 22nd June 2019 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:48 PM   #118
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I posted a link to Smart Recovery earlier. Smart is an evidence-based recovery program, but it’s probably 1/1000 the size of AA, so not available everywhere. Judges might not have even heard of it. And people in charge of rehab might not accept it, preferring 12 step.

SmartRecovery.Org

AA’s tradition is “attraction not promotion” but the people forced to go to the meetings or to do the 12 steps by courts haven’t been attracted; they have been court-mandated. If they don’t do the AA program as interpreted by the people in charge of them, they can lose their freedom, a bed at a sober house, whatever.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 09:08 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Do you think AA misrepresents itself in that regard?
It absolutely does. I have in mind a chap who is a member for some 30 odd years. When he goes on holidays he makes sure that he finds and attends whatever local AA meeting he can dredge up.

So wait just a minute, I asked. You are in a country where you don't even speak the local language. What use is that? You have no clue what is going on or what is being said.

His answer was disturbing. He stated that it didn't matter, that the lord's prayer was universal and that he felt secure in the company of the brethren. Having rocked along with the guy to a few of his meetings at different locations, I know for a fact that half of the attendees were plainly half cut and plainly on the pull for vulnerable young drunk women. It was awful.

But I had to ask, "wait, when I go on holidays, my first act is to explore the local culture in all it's spotty glory. You seek out the local AA chapter come hell or high water as your first move?"

"Yes" he said. "WTF is that about?" sez I. And he then proceeded to tell me about how one could never leave the cult. Once one bought into it one simply could not leave and so forth. AA is frankly bizarre, and anyone who believes it cures anything is deluded.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 09:19 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
AA’s tradition is “attraction not promotion” but the people forced to go to the meetings or to do the 12 steps by courts haven’t been attracted; they have been court-mandated. If they don’t do the AA program as interpreted by the people in charge of them, they can lose their freedom, a bed at a sober house, whatever.
The person in charge of the probationer, or the person in charge of AA? Nobody's in charge of AA - and it shows

ETA: And AA is full of folks who think other people are doing it wrong. That's why there's so many meetings.

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