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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 22nd June 2019, 12:25 AM   #161
Francesca R
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's nonsense. [ . . . ]
FWIW that bit isn't a response to anything I wrote (and kinda looks like it is)
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Old 22nd June 2019, 12:47 AM   #162
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In the meantime it seems Caster Semenya (only her, not other XY athletes still covered by hyperandrogenisation rules) is free to compete in IAAF events unimpeded (apparently she used oral contraceptives to comply previously which was one of the allowed doping methods to lower T-level) until Switzerland's supreme court gets together another team to rule on the case.

I read that she's in a Diamond League event in California in a week, though oddly the W800m has a suppressed entries list. There are only seven meetings containing the 800 in the 2019 season in this league. Probably she will be able to get into the remaining three after that one in Birmingham (UK) Paris and Brussels by September. Semenya won one (and a 1000m) in 2018 before the rule change.

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Old 22nd June 2019, 01:53 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Because there's a plausible evolutionary account for neuroanatomical basis of gender identity. We haven't had teapots (or western beauty standards, or apache helicopters, or whatever else people wish to come up with) long enough for that to be the case.

Can you describe what you mean by "gender identity"? I don't have one myself.

I'm not aware of any "plausible evolutionary account for neuroanatomical basis" for this mysterious inner essence, either.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:07 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Can you describe what you mean by "gender identity"? I don't have one myself.



I'm not aware of any "plausible evolutionary account for neuroanatomical basis" for this mysterious inner essence, either.
Your username.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:23 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
FWIW that bit isn't a response to anything I wrote (and kinda looks like it is)

No, sorry, it was a response to a completely different post which I quoted without filling in the name of the poster - who was Mumblethrax in fact. I added it rather than making a separate post. I can see it's misleading, sorry about that.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 02:26 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your username.
LOL. I assume you're joking.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:04 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
LOL. I assume you're joking.
A bit tongue in cheek but actually your user name is expressing a gender identity, using a name that in our culture is identified as a female name.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:18 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Semenya's (financially-incentivised) handlers could have thought of that a decade ago instead of pushing her into championship mid-distance competition, submitting her to testing without telling her much of anything about it, and running her into a collision with just about the only authorities where clinical biology rules and personality can go whistle.

But I think perhaps they opted not to bother. If anyone has been guilty of the most extreme insensitivity to DSD and gender ID affected trauma it is probably them. Way to dismantle the sensibility of someone who otherwise seems to have had no external issue whatsoever impacting her ability to live socially and legally as female.

The CAS arbitration in full (except it isn't) is here PDF 163pages

Exactly this.

I can't honestly tell whether Semenya herself is really as hurt and devastated as she makes out, or whether it's a careful act to attract sympathy. Either way, hurt feelings don't change biological reality. Also, either way, she has been shamefully used, and the primary responsibility lies with the IAAF and its stupid rule-change 20 years ago to allow anyone brought up as a girl to compete in women's events.

1948 was a different time. Diagnostic techniques were nothing like as advanced as they are now, and nobody could have had any clue that "Erika" Schinneger was actually 46XY. The structure of DNA was only discovered in 1953! She was brought up as a girl in absolute good faith and became women's downhill skiing champion in 1966 in absolute good faith.

Fast forward to 1968 and DNA and the genetic code have been cracked. The Olympics are worried that some countries are sneaking men into the women's events so they institute sex testing, and lo and behold, Erika turns up what must have been pretty much the identical results to Caster. She was already 20 and at the top of the sport. This was obviously pretty rough for her, but nobody was prepared to sweep away the rules just because Erika's feelings were hurt. Indeed, her feelings didn't come into it at all.

For the next 30 years there were no incentives to nurture male-bodied "girls" with ambiguous genitalia, because the sex testing was going to catch them. There are various stories of promising juniors quietly retiring in their mid-teens due to "injury", and gossip that testing had actually shown them to be XY. Rules being rules, you'd think the incentive was to identify these youngsters as early as possible to minimise the psychological distress.

But that didn't always happen, especially in third-world countries. The lack of any mandatory testing for juniors allowed doubtful competitors to progress to senior level and the distress that results when somoene realises her dreams of athletics fame and fortune are in tatters must be extreme. This was handled insensitively and I believe one person committed suicide. And this is where the accusations of racism start to come in, because it tends to be the third-world countries where children with ambiguous genitalia aren't investigated in infancy.

To my mind the best approach would have been to mandate testing at junior level for anyone on track for the big league. Test them all - a simple karyotype test doesn't cost much and the vast majority of girls who are phenotypically female and 46XX won't need anything else. Doubtful cases could progress to more detailed testing. Do it when they're about 13 or 14 for preference and settle the matter. Then those with a disqualifying result can be counselled and helped into a different career or hobby before too much is invested in athletics.

But no, that didn't happen. Insted the IAAF were very badly advised by people pushing the human rights agenda and prioritising "fairness" to the tiny number of XY "girls" over fairness to the people the rules were devised to protect - people with actual female bodies. So they stopped the sex testing, declared that if your home state recognised you as female you were in, and just sat back to see what would happen.

And of course Caster Semenya happened. There were mutterings about her right back to when she was about 15, but nobody tested her then, all we got was vehement declarations that she was female. She herself has spoken about the repeated humiliation of having to pull down her panties and expose herself at meeting after meeting, to prove to suspicious officials that she wasn't a boy in disguise. That's a pretty unpleasant thing to do to any 15-year-old girl, never mind one who must already be conscious that her body isn't exactly in the middle of the normal distribution curve.

She was 19 and already in the big time before she was tested. The test results were concealed and the impression given was that she was a woman with adrenal hyperplasia. They just said that she had elevated teststerone concentrations, and she was female, so that's what I concluded, and that's what we were meant to conclude. But something else was leaked and I have to admit I didn't really run that part through my brain. It was leaked that she has testicles, not ovaries.

If you put all that together, it's obvious. Yes, there is a condition (CAIS) where women have (vestigial) internal testes, but Semenya quite obviously didn't have that. She is clearly androgen-responsive. Put "elevated testosterone", "androgen-responsive" and "internal testicles" together and you have a male, albeit one where PAIS has caused ambiguous female-looking external genitalia.

I don't know whether they actually told Semenya at the time or not, but I suspect they didn't. We're into the time when people wilfully ignore someone's biological sex in favour of affirming their "gender identity", and if you can tell a normal male transwoman that he's "really a woman" it's a no-brainer to keep telling Caster Semenya that she's "really female".

Since the rule change in about 2000 Caster wasn't going to be disqualified on account of being actually male, and the SA athletics authorities care far more about the medals than about the mental health and wellbeing of their athletes. So now we're into arguing about how to compensate for Semenya being a male who is allowed to compete in women's events. It turns out that she's pretty androgen-responsive, and that reducing her testosterone down closer to normal female concentrations seriously affects her speed.

She's been told for all these years that she's a woman and this high testosterone she has is a natural part of her womanhood. So obviously she resents having to suppress it, and at the same time the SA authorities are extremely keen that she should not have to suppress it, as they want these medals. So we're into this crocodile (or maybe not) tears act about hurt feelings, and to hell with the hurt feelings of the fastest XX girls who only get a look at the back of Semenya's heels.

This is absolutely poisonous. We know there are coaches scouting for intersex girls in the same category as Caster Semenya, for their medal-winning potential. Even if there are only a handful of them, and there seem to be three competing at the moment, that's enough to wipe out the careers of the top actual women.

And all this is feeding into the even more poisonous issue of the trans athletes. Normal 46XY men who decide that their laydee feelz mean that they're really female and should be able to compete in women's events. And the crazy wokebeards in charge are actually going along with this. At school and college level these boys don't even have to suppress their testosterone, they just race as they are. At senior level they do have to suppress their testosterone, but nowhere near down to normal female concentrations. And now we have Rachel McKinnon and others like him, insisting (just like Semenya) that as he has laydee feelz he is a woman and his body is female and it's outrageous to require him to suppress his natural feminine testosterone secreted by his natural feminine balls.

The way this is going, someone in authority is going to give in to this too, and women's events will be open to any man who's prepared to swear an oath to a JP that he intends to "live as a woman" from now on.

This is all completely freaking insane, and the sooner we get back to making the rules on the basis of actual biological SEX and dealing with hurt feelings the way hurt feelings should be dealt with (a hanky and a sympathetic arm round the shoulders), the better for everyone.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:43 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A bit tongue in cheek but actually your user name is expressing a gender identity, using a name that in our culture is identified as a female name.
I'm pretty sure that this isn't what people identifying themselves as transgender are talking about when they refer to their "gender identity", which is something inside them, not their label.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:09 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The way this is going, someone in authority is going to give in to this too, and women's events will be open to any man who's prepared to swear an oath to a JP that he intends to "live as a woman" from now on.
I think there is a nontrivial likelihood that the Swiss judges will overrule the IAAF when they get around to it, suspending the rule against Semenya in the interim seems to be a bit indicative to me.

We have 1) the CAS admitting the rule is discriminatory, but using justification that is frightfully-out-of-date/transphobic to a movement still in its ascendancy, 2) the precedent of Semenya having been allowed to compete without anti-androgenising for years and 3) the whole tortuosly bizarre backwardness of official policy actually being prescribed hormone interference in order to qualify for athletics, rather than a reason to be disqualified from it, sanctioned and your reputation shredded.

I don't know this but I would have thought that even if the FSCOS sides with the lower ruling then Caster's lawyers will have leave to appeal to Strasbourg after that too.

I don't know how the International Association of Athletics Federations is run or whether it was "state-captured" in the past when making cack-handed decisions, only that it seems to be in the right now but quite possibly on the wrong side of the contemporaneous battle of ideas. If so, expect more of a string of DSD world champs.

Sha-carri Richardson remains the fastest woman in the world for now though (and nobody has beaten Flo-Jo's speed set years before any of today's elite was born)
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:21 AM   #171
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And Flo-Jo was quite possibly not entirely without benefit of androgens herself, shall we say.

The whole thing is a complete nightmare. They need to understand that this is about biology not feelings in people's heads and work out a simple and testable definition of "female" and stick to it. We managed it a page or two back, it's not hard. Then insist on testing all juniors intending to progress to senior competitions and have a system of counselling and support in place for kids who get an disqualifying result.

It's either that or forget about separate women's events entirely.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:26 AM   #172
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I am not aware of that controversy as far as my knowledge goes there has never been any evidence she (Flo-Jo) doped herself. Of course almost every winner attracts suspicion.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:30 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I am not aware of that controversy as far as my knowledge goes there has never been any evidence she (Flo-Jo) doped herself. Of course almost every winner attracts suspicion.

I have read such suspicions. Of course they may be entirely unfounded.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 05:14 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Can you describe what you mean by "gender identity"? I don't have one myself.
Neither do I, seems some sort of mystic belief system.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 05:15 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A bit tongue in cheek but actually your user name is expressing a gender identity, using a name that in our culture is identified as a female name.
If your name is your gender identity then transgender people wouldn't be changing their names.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:07 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I am not aware of that controversy as far as my knowledge goes there has never been any evidence she (Flo-Jo) doped herself. Of course almost every winner attracts suspicion.
At a time when she was already a mature, seasoned athlete she suddenly trimmed about 0.5 off her best 100m time and about 0.6 off her best for 200m. Just prior to this there was a noticeable bulking up of her muscles and deepening of her voice. She abruptly retired after her record-breaking Olympic runs. This all strikes me as evidence.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:45 AM   #177
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Yeah, that's what the article I read was talking about. No proof, but certainly circumstantial evidence.

While testosterone is not the only factor influencing superior male performance, its effects on the female body are such that believe nobody who has gone through male puberty OR has ever taken exogenous testosterone should be eligible for women's events. Adrenal hyperplasia is a difficult one. The point is the effects are not entirely transitory. Yes Semenya slows down when she suppresses her testosterone, but there are other residuals.

The situation with CAIS women is so interesting. You'd think that someone with zero effective testosterone would come nowhere even in women's events, as normal women have some bioavailable testosterone. However CAIS women are enormously over-represented among elite athletes. The slight edge apparently conferred by their androgynous build (hip and shoulder angles and so on) is apparently enough to more than compensate for the lack of testosterone.

I suspect Flo-Jo was at it, latterly, and what we're seeing there is the effect of testosterone on an already top-class elite athlete. I think Semenya without the testosterone would have been nowhere near elite class from the get-go. She still has the male advantage of build and body shape, but take away most of the testosterone and she doesn't win.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:56 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If your name is your gender identity then transgender people wouldn't be changing their names.
You've got that back to front, plus dont miss my use of the standalone "a" in what I posted.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 07:04 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
This all strikes me as evidence.
Except that none of it is. She was tested extensively during 1988 even though it was not mandatory. She retired to have a child. IIRC some teammate sold a splash to the press about her and also Carl Lewis taking hormones but also had no evidence and struck out.


Need a far higher standard of evidence than "suspicion". As you do for biological gender which is why rules are not enforced against Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"

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Old 22nd June 2019, 07:11 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
I'm not aware of any "plausible evolutionary account for neuroanatomical basis" for this mysterious inner essence, either.
Depends on whether you believe human sexual dimorphismWP is the result of adaptation.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 07:21 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Except that none of it is. She was tested extensively during 1988 even though it was not mandatory. She retired to have a child. IIRC some teammate sold a splash to the press about her and also Carl Lewis taking hormones but also had no evidence and struck out.


Need a far higher standard of evidence than "suspicion". As you do for biological gender which is why rules are not enforced against Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"
"After her death in 1998, Prince Alexandre de Merode, the Chairman of the International Olympic Committee's medical commission, claimed that Joyner was singled out for extra, rigorous drug testing during the 1988 Olympic Games because of rumors of steroid use.
...
De Merode was not without controversy himself, having been accused of covering up drug tests at the 1984 Games, and following record shattering performances by Chinese swimmers in the 1990s"

My bolding. Mandatory random testing was introduced in 1989. All FloJo had to do was dope up in late 87 and early 88, but tail off before major competitions. However, see the Carl Lewis article below.

Of Carl Lewis:


"Carl Lewis has broken his silence on allegations that he was the beneficiary of a drugs cover-up, admitting he had tested positive for banned substances but claiming he was just one of "hundreds" of American athletes who were allowed to escape bans.

"There were hundreds of people getting off," he said. "Everyone was treated the same."

Lewis has now acknowledged that he failed three tests during the 1988 US Olympic trials, which under international rules at the time should have prevented him from competing in the Seoul games two months later."

Drug abuse was rampant then, and systematically covered-up in the US.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 07:33 AM   #182
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And yet there is no evidence that Flo-Jo doped herself. You can believe it if you want of course.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 07:53 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
And yet there is no evidence that Flo-Jo doped herself. You can believe it if you want of course.
The 'herself' there makes the sentence ambiguous. There's strong circumstantial evidence that she benefited from doping, though she might conceivably have been unaware that she was taking the stuff.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:31 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You've got that back to front
Nope, you do. If your name is a gender identity then, for example, Bradley Manning having a "male" name would imply he has a male gender identity. Yet he changed his name to Chelsea claiming to have a female gender identity instead, therefor his name - Bradley - was not a gender identity he had.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:47 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
And yet there is no evidence that Flo-Jo doped herself. You can believe it if you want of course.
"No evidence"? If you mean; she was never caught by way of testing - suuure.

(If you mean to say, she might have been doped without knowing it, well ....)

FGJ was fast but in no way exceptional at college and into her mid-twenties. She retired, made a "come-back" at age twenty-eight - and tainted women's sprinting forever with her blatant steroid use. Her 100 and 200 records will never be touched by a 'clean' athlete.

The damage inflicted on her body, which was absolutely typical of steroid abuse, made itself known by killing her at thirty-eight years old.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:49 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nope, you do. If your name is a gender identity then, for example, Bradley Manning having a "male" name would imply he has a male gender identity. Yet he changed his name to Chelsea claiming to have a female gender identity instead, therefor his name - Bradley - was not a gender identity he had.
Nope Darat has no gender identity at least in my culture. And nope you've still got it the wrong way around.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 09:30 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"No evidence"? If you mean; she was never caught by way of testing - suuure.

(If you mean to say, she might have been doped without knowing it, well ....)

FGJ was fast but in no way exceptional at college and into her mid-twenties. She retired, made a "come-back" at age twenty-eight - and tainted women's sprinting forever with her blatant steroid use. Her 100 and 200 records will never be touched by a 'clean' athlete.

The damage inflicted on her body, which was absolutely typical of steroid abuse, made itself known by killing her at thirty-eight years old.
"It would be three years before I would get as close to her again, in Seoul 1988, by which time she had metamorphosed. Apart from the overall muscular definition and diminution of breasts, her jaw had elongated, a condition called acromegaly, known to be an effect of Human Growth Hormone.

She wore thick pan-stick make-up, to cover the widespread acne, a side- effect of male hormones, and her voice had deepened substantially."

Pat Butcher, sports journalist
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:26 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
I'm pretty sure that this isn't what people identifying themselves as transgender are talking about when they refer to their "gender identity", which is something inside them, not their label.
Then you haven't noticed how upset they get when you "deadname" them. They care very, very much about their label.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:37 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is the part of the thread where I ask for at least one example of an 46,XX male, SRY-negative athlete playing elite women's sport.
  1. The condition is extremely rare - which doesn't actually mean a lot because in sports the people with unique advantages rise to the top
  2. As far as I know, they are phenotypically male and brought up as boys, which would tend to preclude them getting into women's athletics
  3. Of course, now that phenotypically male people are allowed to self-ID as female and compete in women's sports, this is interesting because if one of these people did that, as an XX person he would not be required to lower his testosterone
  4. Watch this space, possibly.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 01:04 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"It would be three years before I would get as close to her again, in Seoul 1988, by which time she had metamorphosed. Apart from the overall muscular definition and diminution of breasts, her jaw had elongated, a condition called acromegaly, known to be an effect of Human Growth Hormone.

She wore thick pan-stick make-up, to cover the widespread acne, a side- effect of male hormones, and her voice had deepened substantially."

Pat Butcher, sports journalist

I think we've certainly established that the allegation has been made, from multiple sources. I think we've also established that there is credible evidence to support it. Now this isn't a court of law where we're obliged to rule according to "beyond reasonable doubt". Reasonable people may form their own opinions on how the balance of probabilities lies, and indeed may differ in their assessments, but there's no point claiming that "it was never proved", because we don't need that to make up our own minds.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:04 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A bit tongue in cheek but actually your user name is expressing a gender identity, using a name that in our culture is identified as a female name.
Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Boy_Named_Sue

Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
... as far as my knowledge goes there has never been any evidence she (Flo-Jo) doped herself..
Only if you don't accept the evidence, which Glen nicely noted.

That is solid evidence. People do not undergo that kind of improvement naturally, and history has shown that when they do, it's by illegal means.

Oh golly gee, FloJo was tested so many times...

So was Lance Armstrong.

(Nice gender defence, even though you'd never admit it.)

Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
... Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"
Which has turned out to be entirely correct. Imagine that.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 03:26 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"It would be three years before I would get as close to her again, in Seoul 1988, by which time she had metamorphosed. Apart from the overall muscular definition and diminution of breasts, her jaw had elongated, a condition called acromegaly, known to be an effect of Human Growth Hormone.

She wore thick pan-stick make-up, to cover the widespread acne, a side- effect of male hormones, and her voice had deepened substantially."

Pat Butcher, sports journalist
There's still a lot of willful denial about her, and if you search for "peak age sprinters" there's almost a stock answer which says "some at thirty years", which is purely to take account of FGJ and one or two others. It's BS - sprinters peak in their mid-twenties, always. Other sports in which explosive speed confers an advantage, such as tennis, players can compensate for its diminution with learned skills and technique, sprinters just get slower, full stop.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:06 PM   #193
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I know we'd stopped talking about autogynaephilia, but this came up on twitter this evening. I realise this thread has stopped trying to pretend that autogynaephilia isn't a thing, or that a proportion of trans-identifying males are not autogynaephiles, but this is such a blatant example that it's really worth a link.

Context. Graham Linehan repeated the common misconception that women's resistance to males in female single-sex spaces isn't about "actual transwomen", but about the fear that predatory men will spot their chance and pretend to be trans to gain access to vulnerable women. Several people jumped in to clarify. One person posted these quotes, though without an actual citation.

https://twitter.com/sceptica_bex/sta...42755916374016

You see, now that we know that this, or something very much like it, is the motivation for trans-identifying men to gain access to women's spaces, and that this, or something very much like it, is what's going on in their heads, we are creeped out big-time. We now understand the exhibitionism, and the refusal to contemplate the offer of a third private space to change if they're really feeling threatened in the male facilities. Validation, yes, but also fetish gratification. We simply are not going to give in to having these men foisted on us, no matter how much they bleat about being the most marginalised mortals since the dawn of creation or how "hurtful" it is to be excluded.

I found another piece giving references and chapter and verse for all the studies that have confirmed Blanchard's work over the years (in rather testy tones), and it's not where I thought I'd saved it. I'll post it if and when I find it again.

Just stop it. These guys can not "pee next to me" if I have anything to do with it.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:27 PM   #194
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Those quotes if they are real are those of a predatory male.

What else would they be? Not all "actual transwomen" are the same but some of them are predatory males.

(Not Rebecca Watson is it?) (ETA No)

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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:34 PM   #195
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And on the issue of child abuse. This thread is a series of screen captures from a forum where detransitioners discuss their predicament. The young man, now in his 30s, says that he was one of the first "trans kids" to be transitioned as an adolescent. He now believes his parents did it because they didn't like having an effeminate son, and there is also a strong hint that they benefited financially from the situation. (This is not Jazz Jennings because he's still only about 17, or Jackie Green because he's about 25, and both of them are still saying they're on board with what's happened to them, but it's likely to be a child in a similar situation.)

https://twitter.com/ZaneEmma/status/1142263301386190848

Obviously this has nothing to do with autogynaephilia, this is HSTS. However studies show that if these children are supported simply to be themselves through puberty and into their 20s, 70% to 95% of them (depending on the study) will give up the idea of transitioning and become gay men perfectly happy with their own bodies (or as much as any of us are). This rush to push young people into hormones and surgery (I saw an account from a proud mother earlier today of how she had procured her "son" a bilateral mastectomy at the age of 12!), and the literal criminalisation of a counselling and "wait and see" approach is ruining lives.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 04:41 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Those quotes if they are real are those of a predatory male.

What else would they be? Not all "actual transwomen" are the same but some of them are predatory males.

(Not Rebecca Watson is it?) (ETA No)

I don't know who it is. I don't see any reason to doubt the authenticity of the screen captures though. I've read too many similar ones. Including Jonathan Yaniv.

It may very well be that most of these guys will hold back from actually assaulting anyone and simply get their rocks off by being in women's spaces, watching women's discomfort with their presence, and revelling in the whole charade. It's already been ruled (in the USA I believe) that girls have no right to visual privacy and so long as the man in their locker room doesn't actually touch them he can do what he likes and they have no comeback. Somehow it's not "exposing himself" or flashing if he says he's trans.

But you know what? I don't care. It's "not all transwomen" for sure, but it's a non-trivial proportion of them, and I am sick and tired of being lectured by clueless wokebeards that I should be kind and budge over for them, or worse still I have no right to privacy and not wanting that changing next to me is as bad as racism. I know the author of this blog post in real life. I tell you straight, if I ever see him in the ladies room when I'm there, I will run a mile.

How the freaking hell did we even get into this situation?
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Old 22nd June 2019, 05:02 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It may very well be that most of these guys will hold back from actually assaulting anyone and simply get their rocks off by being in women's spaces, watching women's discomfort with their presence, and revelling in the whole charade.
That's predatory behaviour and a reason why there are sex segregated private spaces, even if one can't enforce against it if say someone is getting this autogynaephilic experience in the street.

It isn't easy to tell if a male who identifies as female is actually a predator or not. But those who are, are not likely to be interested in a third space. (Those who aren't may not be either)
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Old 22nd June 2019, 05:09 PM   #198
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None of them seem to be, which should tell you quite a lot. The ostensible reason is that it discriminates against them by marking them out as "not real women" and that may indeed be the primary reason for some if not many, but the rush of autigynaephilic arousal is sought by a significant proportion.

[Rolfe goes to bed and waits for the flurry of "terf!", "bigot!", "exactly like a racist" posts, and doesn't care one tiny bit.]
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:00 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
"No evidence"? If you mean; she was never caught by way of testing - suuure.

(If you mean to say, she might have been doped without knowing it, well ....)

FGJ was fast but in no way exceptional at college and into her mid-twenties. She retired, made a "come-back" at age twenty-eight - and tainted women's sprinting forever with her blatant steroid use. Her 100 and 200 records will never be touched by a 'clean' athlete.

The damage inflicted on her body, which was absolutely typical of steroid abuse, made itself known by killing her at thirty-eight years old.
19 U.S. Olympic track athletes failed drug tests during the 1988 Olympic trials. All of them were allowed to compete. 3 of them won gold medals.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 06:03 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Except that none of it is. She was tested extensively during 1988 even though it was not mandatory. She retired to have a child. IIRC some teammate sold a splash to the press about her and also Carl Lewis taking hormones but also had no evidence and struck out.


Need a far higher standard of evidence than "suspicion". As you do for biological gender which is why rules are not enforced against Caster Semenya just because "she looks like a bloke" or "she's too quick"
Carl Lewis admitted he used PEDs to win. He also failed 3 drug tests during the 1988 Olympic trials and should have been banned for at least 3 months which would have stopped him from competing. The USOC swept it under the rug.
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