ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 24th June 2019, 11:57 AM   #281
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, because height and eye color are empirically observable whereas gender isn't.
Like hell it isn't. Even with the more "modern" definition of gender as behaviour, it's quite observable.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 11:58 AM   #282
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Expecting (even when hiding behind a weasel concept like "What? It's not like I can make them!") men to shave their faces or women to shave their legs is...problematic.
I suppose I'll just have to take your word for it, as a skeptic.

The aforementioned social norm causes problems, and we needn't actually say what the problems are (or provide any evidence thereof) so long as we convey a certain level of moral outrage when discussing the topic and maybe throw in a gratuitous reference to patriarchal dystopia.

Totally not a weasel word, "problematic."
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:03 PM   #283
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,850
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Like hell it isn't. Even with the more "modern" definition of gender as behaviour, it's quite observable.
Feel free to answer the same question then: What experiment could I perform that demonstrates someone's gender identity?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:04 PM   #284
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,883
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nope, gender identity is claimed to be fixed by age 3.
Who claims that? Is it correct? And what does it even mean?

If you've ever actually parented a 3 year old, you will discover that they don't even really understand what gender is, and they've got a limited grasp on language as well. Whether they call themselves a boy or a girl is largely a function of what you told them, regardless of whatever kind of internal model of gender they might have working in their brains.

Quote:
If it is neuroanatomical then the group under consideration should also have identified as boys in pre-pubescent childhood. Them identifying as girls before puberty but as boys during and post puberty suggests a social basis for gender identity and not a neuroanatomical one.
No, it does not. It suggests that social conditioning can override biology pre-puberty, but that once hormones assert themselves in puberty, biology will override social conditioning in most cases.

Quote:
If testosterone levels determined gender identity then everyone should identify as girls before puberty.
Nope. Even before puberty, testosterone levels aren't the same. The difference is just far more pronounced after puberty.

Plus, of course, we tend to socially condition biological males to believe that they are male and biological females to believe that they are female. And in most cases, their anatomy correctly reflects that difference even before puberty, which children will discover and learn about as well.

Now, it might be interesting to raise a bunch of children without ever telling them about sex differences in humans or what their own sex was, or letting them see anyone else naked to compare themselves with. And maybe they wouldn't conceptualize such differences until puberty hit. But you can't do such an experiment for obvious ethical reasons.

Quote:
You seem to have this weird idea that somehow testosterone levels are explanatory for, well, pretty much anything.
You seem to have this weird idea that somehow testosterone has no affects on behavior at all.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:08 PM   #285
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,224
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Totally not a weasel word, "problematic."
Jesus Goddamn Christ what do you want me to say?

I think it's wrong. Define "wrong" however will get you through the day.

I don't think men and women should have expectations put on them based on their biological sex unless their biological is the actual determining factor in it. The fact that at some point in the last... 7 second that somehow became an controversial opinion I'm getting the "no true Skeptic" card played against me on is rather troubling.

I said waaaaaaay back when this thread (and the thread before it) started that Transgenderism required us to put gender stereotypes back on the table and that called a strawman.

No someone's doing it and me saying that's what they are doing is a strawman.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:16 PM   #286
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why should we be working to get rid of them? I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that women wear sundresses and men (generally) don't, or that men wear neckties and women wear some other form of gratuitous silk ornamentation. Iím okay with the fact that men are generally expected to go without makeup and nail polish, whereas women get to choose. I'm even okay with the fact that people are significantly more likely to ask (politely) for my help with the Ozarka bottles and other such heavy lifting tasks.

Has anyone in this thread (or its lengthy predecessor) argued that all gendered roles and expectations must be abolished in favor of some other system?
That's a side-effect of the feminism of old: once they were done with trying to make men and women equal, they moved on to trying to make them the same, either because they're confusing the terms or because they see the latter as a means to reach the former, which they believe hasn't been reached yet.

Not saying Joe's thinking like that, but that sort of odd logic has crept into the collective counsciousness.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:16 PM   #287
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,850
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who claims that? Is it correct? And what does it even mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender...e_of_formation

Personally I don't think it means anything, but I happen to be arguing with someone who asserts that gender identity is phenomenal.

Quote:
No, it does not. It suggests that social conditioning can override biology pre-puberty, but that once hormones assert themselves in puberty, biology will override social conditioning in most cases.
Given that large groups of children are placed on puberty blockers whereas their peers are not there should be some sort of experiment that can be devised to test which hypothesis is correct.

Quote:
You seem to have this weird idea that somehow testosterone has no affects on behavior at all.
Not at all. I do think you can't just throw out "testosterone levels" at any problem and expect it to be considered a valid explanation.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 24th June 2019 at 12:18 PM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:18 PM   #288
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't think men and women should have expectations put on them based on their biological sex unless their biological [makeup] is the actual determining factor in it.
I think there is a biological reason why men typically have more trouble presenting a baby smooth face to the world than women do.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Define "wrong" however will get you through the day.
As a consequentialist, I like to be able to point to some cognizable harm done whenever I say something is wrong.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:20 PM   #289
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Expecting (even when hiding behind a weasel concept like "What? It's not like I can make them!") men to shave their faces or women to shave their legs is... problematic.
Why, though? You've oft repeated that you think it's an issue but not why.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:22 PM   #290
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,224
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think there is a biological reason why men typically have more trouble presenting a baby smooth face to the world than women do.
Okay before you go full Bob on me and start getting treated as such, I need to know where I'm losing you exactly because you're off somewhere beyond the event horizon of the formless at this point.

What in the bloody, blue, blazes does the difficulty in shaving have to do with anything?

Yes men have to shave and women don't because men grow beards. How does this in anyway connect to "Men are expected to shave?"

Men are expected to shave to be smooth faced and women aren't so men... shaving is... sexist because they wouldn't be equal any other way or something? Is that where you are trying to land on?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:23 PM   #291
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Feel free to answer the same question then: What experiment could I perform that demonstrates someone's gender identity?
One post ago you said "gender", and now you've switched to "gender identity". Which one is it? Because the former, as I said, can be observed objectively. The latter is subjective and based on report. However, one's identification does not change objective fact -- in this case the gender.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:23 PM   #292
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Men are expected to shave to be smooth faced and women aren't so men... shaving is... sexist because they wouldn't be equal any other way or something? Is that where you are trying to land on?
You're the one who brought up sexism, just a few posts up. I'm the one who thinks this particular gendered social norm is mostly harmless.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:24 PM   #293
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus Goddamn Christ what do you want me to say?
Joe, it doesn't help to flip the table over with every post. Could you calm down and discuss this more dispassionately, please? I have quite a bit of trouble following your arguments and positions in this thread.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:25 PM   #294
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,224
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
One post ago you said "gender", and now you've switched to "gender identity". Which one is it?
There's a difference?

I thought sex was the external thing and gender was the internal thing.

To me it's like the weather man saying "rain" or "rain event."

I love how the more pedantic arguments get the less anyone actually the uses the language with any clarity.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:27 PM   #295
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,224
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Joe, it doesn't help to flip the table over with every post. Could you calm down and discuss this more dispassionately, please? I have quite a bit of trouble following your arguments and positions in this thread.
I'm sorry I'll take being called a transphobe by one side and a rape enabler by the other with my customary good humor.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:31 PM   #296
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 52,658
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm sorry I'll take being called a transphobe by one side and a rape enabler by the other with my customary good humor.
Compromise and accept that you are a trape phobler.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:31 PM   #297
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,224
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Compromise and accept that you are a trape phobler.
*Laughs* At this point that's the best I'm gonna get.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:33 PM   #298
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I thought sex was the external thing and gender was the internal thing.
Well, there's the problem. Not long ago the two were essentially the same. Then it was a set of behaviours associated with sex. Now it's whatever the **** we want, which as you said is akin to the soul debate.

Me, I'd rather avoid the third definition and stick to either the first or second. In both cases, however, it makes how you identify completely irrelevant.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:34 PM   #299
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm sorry I'll take being called a transphobe by one side and a rape enabler by the other with my customary good humor.
That has nothing to do with what I posted, Joe. You think I haven't been called that? As I said, I can't follow your argument, so I don't know where you stand. It's hard to address someone's points under those circumstances.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:45 PM   #300
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,810
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Pretty incredible that, in this day and age, we have to remind some people of something we've been aware of since, like, ever.
I think it's a little more complicated than that.

The problem is that over time, societies have evolved a lot of non-biological norms and expectations on top of this basic biological fact. I think that many of them probably started out in societies where group survival was much more closely tied to realistic assessment of sexual dimorphism. Even as civilization advanced and survival depended less and less on being a man and easily producing surplus food, or being a woman and trading other things for some of that surplus, the existing norms and expectations remained and continued to evolve into the rather baroque and apparently pointless conventions we have today.

So you're not really having to remind people of the sexual dimorphism. You're having to remind them that we're dealing with tens of thousands of years of evolved tradition, stemming from this sexual dimorphism. And you're having to remind them that even though civilization has greatly narrowed the raw power gap between men and women, or even eliminated it altogether in some areas, the dimorphism still exists, and some version of the social norms and expectations that arise from it will probably always be with us.

Joe's proposal to just abolish them probably won't work. And as long as we have competitive sports, gender dimorphism will mean gendered roles, and transgenders will still have a venue for their disphoria and a preferred mode of treatment.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:45 PM   #301
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,224
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As I said, I can't follow your argument, so I don't know where you stand. It's hard to address someone's points under those circumstances.
Because I have to stop every other post and restate because it immediately gets lost in the weeds.

For the 50th billionth time (I should just save this so I can copy and paste it.)

- I do not recognize a level of valid, meaningful, non-biological difference between the sexes (either as things that exist or things that we should be creating) that is required to make "identifying" as one sex or the other beyond the biological as meaningful in anyway.

- When (g)you say or "accept" (which I could phrase that better, something in that ballpark) a statement like "I'm biologically X, but I identify as Y" (g)you are reinforcing unnecessary at best, dangerous at worst stereotypes placed on the genders. When (g)you let a man who wants to wear a dress present himself as a woman, you are, whether you like it or not, saying that wearing a dress is associated or expected or some version of the same, for women.

- You can't have stereotypes, rules, expectations, etc that only work in the subversive. You can't champion subverting the rules without shoring the rules up.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:51 PM   #302
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,810
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm sorry I'll take being called a transphobe by one side and a rape enabler by the other with my customary good humor.
Nobody is calling you either of those things. Except maybe ponderingturtle. I'm not sure. But ranting at the rest of us isn't really going to help you with that (assuming that's even happening).
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 12:59 PM   #303
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
- I do not recognize a level of valid, meaningful, non-biological difference between the sexes (either as things that exist or things that we should be creating) that is required to make "identifying" as one sex or the other beyond the biological as meaningful in anyway.
What do you consider "biological"? Hormones can have quite a bit of influence on behaviour, and everything humans do, in a way, stem from the biological. So where do you draw the line?

Quote:
- When (g)you say or "accept" (which I could phrase that better, something in that ballpark) a statement like "I'm biologically X, but I identify as Y" (g)you are reinforcing unnecessary at best, dangerous at worst stereotypes placed on the genders. When (g)you let a man who wants to wear a dress present himself as a woman, you are, whether you like it or not, saying that wearing a dress is associated or expected or some version of the same, for women.
Lots of things are unnecessary but it's another thing to say they should be done away with. Why are they dangerous stereotypes? In fact, how are they stereotypes at all, rather than, say, expected behaviours based on general sex-based behaviours?

Quote:
- You can't have stereotypes, rules, expectations, etc that only work in the subversive. You can't champion subverting the rules without shoring the rules up.
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what this means.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 01:00 PM   #304
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,810
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
- I do not recognize a level of valid, meaningful, non-biological difference between the sexes (either as things that exist or things that we should be creating) that is required to make "identifying" as one sex or the other beyond the biological as meaningful in anyway.
Society as a whole, however, does. It probably will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The solution to helping transpeople live healthy and fulfilling lives as first-class citizens is not to simply declare that gender norms and expectations are stupid and wrong. That doesn't help transpeople, and it doesn't help the rest of us. We all have to get by in the society we have, not the society we wish to have or plan to have at a later date.

Quote:
- When (g)you say or "accept" (which I could phrase that better, something in that ballpark) a statement like "I'm biologically X, but I identify as Y" (g)you are reinforcing unnecessary at best, dangerous at worst stereotypes placed on the genders. When (g)you let a man who wants to wear a dress present himself as a woman, you are, whether you like it or not, saying that wearing a dress is associated or expected or some version of the same, for women.
Of course (g)you're saying that. It's true. That's the whole point. The transwoman is saying that she wants to express her interpretation of the norms and expectations for women in her society, and she wants that same society to honor her expression, even though it's at odds with what that society normally prescribes for her biological gender.

"I want to be seen as a woman."

"Then wear a dress."

Is a perfectly cromulent exchange, in a society where women normally wear dresses. You're not so much trying to solve for transgenders, as you are trying to solve for JoeMorgue.

Quote:
- You can't have stereotypes, rules, expectations, etc that only work in the subversive. You can't champion subverting the rules without shoring the rules up.
Erasing the rules probably isn't the right answer here. Not for transpeople, and not for the rest of us.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 01:09 PM   #305
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Erasing the rules probably isn't the right answer here. Not for transpeople, and not for the rest of us.
At the local pride parade (day before yesterday) I saw plenty of people happily subverting everyday gender norms. I don't have those photos yet, but here is a link to a random drag queen lineup from a while ago and a world away. This sort of willful and joyful subversion would be lost in the process of degenderfication proposed above, not to mention any number of fun & useful sexual cues.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 01:20 PM   #306
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,260
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What are the more important aspects,being able to throw someone out of their apartment or job for being trans?
Yeah, I'd definitely say both of those are a bit more important than which bog to use.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Then wear a dress."
Just all become Scots - or Pasifika - and everyone wears skirts.

Problem solved.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 02:08 PM   #307
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,810
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
At the local pride parade (day before yesterday) I saw plenty of people happily subverting everyday gender norms. I don't have those photos yet, but here is a link to a random drag queen lineup from a while ago and a world away. This sort of willful and joyful subversion would be lost in the process of degenderfication proposed above, not to mention any number of fun & useful sexual cues.
Exactly
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #308
TomB
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, there's the problem. Not long ago the two were essentially the same. Then it was a set of behaviours associated with sex. Now it's whatever the **** we want, which as you said is akin to the soul debate.

Me, I'd rather avoid the third definition and stick to either the first or second. In both cases, however, it makes how you identify completely irrelevant.
The way I think of it is that there is a physical sex and a mental sex. Yes, I used the term "sex" for both. Deliberately.

Gender is your second definition: "a set of behaviours associated with sex."

Dysphoria occurs when the (external) physical sex does not match up with the (internal) mental sex. We can argue all day about why this happens.

In order to relieve their dysphoria, a person may express the gender that matches their mental sex. In many ways it's easier to manipulate external things than internal. So by acting and dressing like a woman they feel more at ease because it relives the tension between their internal image of their sex and their external. An analogy is painkillers. Morphine doesn't eliminate the cause of pain, but it numbs it so that you can function.

For the purposes of relieving dysphoria, those items that are most distinctly associated with gender will be most effective. This changes over time and between cultures. I don't think the drive is to wear a dress or play with Barbies. It's to be seen and see themselves as female. Currently, that includes wearing a dress. In the future it could mean shaving the left side of your head. Or tattooing a symbol on your forehead.

Of course, that's just the interpretation I have from reading and watching videos.
TomB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 03:18 PM   #309
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,883
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't think men and women should have expectations put on them based on their biological sex unless their biological is the actual determining factor in it.
What if itís an influencing factor, but not 100% determining? Are social expectations still wrong in such a case?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 03:26 PM   #310
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,810
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what this means.
If your goal is to be granted an exception to a rule, you have to first acknowledge and uphold the rule itself. This is different from the goal of abolishing the rule and getting rid of any possibility of exceptions. Our current understanding of gender disphoria seems to be that transgenders function best when there is both a rule and an exception made in their case.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #311
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,810
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yeah, I'd definitely say both of those are a bit more important than which bog to use.



Just all become Scots - or Pasifika - and everyone wears skirts.

Problem solved.
Not for transgenders in those societies, I bet.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 04:58 PM   #312
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,260
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not for transgenders in those societies, I bet.
Scotland might be an issue - isn't Rolfe in Scotland?

However, MtF trans aren't just readily accepted in Pasifika culture - they're a part of their culture and always have been. The girls just see them as girls and they use the girls' toilets.

And let me tell you, 95% of the time, you do not need an ID card to spot the girls who still have the male bits.

There may be a case where one of them has attacked a woman, but I've certainly not heard about it, and I've heard of lots of cases of a big Pasifika trans knocking sevens bells of **** out of blokes.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 11:05 PM   #313
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,560
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I certainly have, which is why (as I've stated multiple times) that leaves me nowhere to go.



I don't put roles on men and women outside of what is literally required by pure biology, therefore "Man who identifies as a woman" has as much literal meaning to me as "Crankshaft that identifies as a meatloaf."



A man who wears a dress isn't a woman, or "a woman on the inside" and there's no scale or dial that tips just a little toward "woman" or anything else.



So there's nowhere for me to go, so I'm everyone's bad guy. Person with a vagina in my bathroom? Don't care. So Rolfe thinks I want her to get raped. But since I don't think the woman in my bathroom "identifying" as a man or a woman matters or indeed even makes sense, I'm the other side's badguy as well.



Can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game.



I'm not even gonna touch the whole "Getting rid of Gender Roles? Why (gasp) when did anyone ever suggest that?" revisionism because I don't feel like playing a rousing game of "Show me where someone said exactly that in those exact words before I'll admit the idea was ever even on the table."
But surely Joe you recognise that you are rather nonconformist in this regard? It's a fact that whether it is right or wrong our societies do compartmentalise certain behaviours, such as what we wear to one sex/gender. Therefore in the context of our actual society someone could consider themselves to be the gender that wears tights/pantyhose not the gender that doesn't. You can claim this is an arbitrary, non logical way of assigning gender, and I'd actually agree with you BUT it is how society actually is organised.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 11:06 PM   #314
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,560
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's not a valid description of an experiment, you didn't specify which outcomes of this would entail which conclusions. Furthermore, even if it were, your proposal only concerns boys born with deformed genitalia who are a small minority of the population. So I ask you again: What experiment could be performed that allows one to determine someone's gender identity?
You ask people.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 11:08 PM   #315
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,560
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
True, but then it isn't cross-culturally invariant and the claim for a neuroanatomical basis fails.
Not necessarily, it could simply mean it has different expressions depending on the environment.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2019, 11:41 PM   #316
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,560
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think there is a biological reason why men typically have more trouble presenting a baby smooth face to the world than women do.



As a consequentialist, I like to be able to point to some cognizable harm done whenever I say something is wrong.
You've got that the wrong way around. To use an example. Women with visble facial hair are considered less feminine, less beautiful, less attractive in a culture such as the USA because visible facial hair is considered a "masculine" trait. Yet in reality both women (albeit generally to a lesser amount) and men "biologically" have facial hair. This means a biological trait is suppressed in the societally/culturally defined female gender but can be expressed in the male gender. It is these types of gender differences that some of us think should be irrelevant and should really be relegated to history. A woman shouldn't be judged as less "womanly" because she allows her facial hair to grow and be seen.

The issue this view has is the one Joe is expressing, which is wanting to be identified as or even just self identify as a particular gender is really saying you want to use these *arbitrary* social markers to identify yourself but these are simply cultural and societal norms not objective differences that exist outwith society. (We know these are not objective in the sense that they appear the same in all human societies, the classic example is the swap of pink for boys to pink for girls.)

It does raise an interesting question and that is if there were not these socially created and reenforced differences between certain groups of humans what would wanting to be a particular gender actually mean?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 06:13 AM   #317
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,390
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The issue this view has is the one Joe is expressing, which is wanting to be identified as or even just self identify as a particular gender is really saying you want to use these *arbitrary* social markers to identify yourself but these are simply cultural and societal norms not objective differences that exist outwith society.
I wouldn't say that emphasizing observable average sex differences in body hair counts as entirely arbitrary, at least not in those tribes where men are noticeably more hirsute than women. Same goes for any attempt to emphasize other sex differences which would exist even in something approaching a state of nature, e.g. push-up bras. There remain plenty of differences which are entirely arbitrary, however, such as makeup, hair length, clothing color palettes, neckties, etc.

Like Joe, I believe we should avoid being heavy-handed in our enforcement of the above-mentioned gender norms, but unlike him, I don't think most of them are harmful enough to make total degenderfication a worthwhile social project. I try to argue these things on a case-by-case basis, weighing the relevant benefits and harms.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It does raise an interesting question and that is if there were not these socially created and reenforced differences between certain groups of humans what would wanting to be a particular gender actually mean?
I addressed this question (somewhat) in a previous instance of this thread.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

Last edited by d4m10n; 25th June 2019 at 06:18 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 06:22 AM   #318
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yeah, I'd definitely say both of those are a bit more important than which bog to use.
Depends if you are on a trans friendly employer and own a house then they are less of issues. Using bathrooms and being outed are constant issues for all trans people. These are certainly all issues, why do we have to deal with them in some specific sequence?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #319
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,850
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You ask people.
Do you then consider the existence of souls demonstrated because you can ask people and some will say "yes I have a soul"?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2019, 09:36 AM   #320
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 44,883
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You've got that the wrong way around. To use an example. Women with visble facial hair are considered less feminine, less beautiful, less attractive in a culture such as the USA because visible facial hair is considered a "masculine" trait. Yet in reality both women (albeit generally to a lesser amount) and men "biologically" have facial hair. This means a biological trait is suppressed in the societally/culturally defined female gender but can be expressed in the male gender. It is these types of gender differences that some of us think should be irrelevant and should really be relegated to history. A woman shouldn't be judged as less "womanly" because she allows her facial hair to grow and be seen.
Facial hair isn't irrelevant, and will probably never be irrelevant.

Excess facial hair on women is one of the signs of polycystic ovary syndrome. Another symptom is lowered fertility. So facial hair is negatively associated with fertility. That makes facial hair unattractive on women. This isn't fair, but it's not arbitrary, it has a biological basis, and you're never going to get rid of it simply by wishing it away.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:05 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.