ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 1st July 2019, 09:32 AM   #121
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,494
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you still pretending Any Ngo is a journalist?
Are you pretending that a person needs to be a journalist in order to avoid being assaulted?

Andy Ngo isn't a Nazi. Even for those OK with assaulting Nazis, isn't that enough? Why are you trying to blame the victim here?

Quote:
Funny how when it's neo-Nazis doing the assaulting they're "exercising their free speech"; but when people show up to try and stop the assaults they're "terrorists".
That doesn't remotely resemble anything I've ever said, and I doubt it applies to anyone else here either. If you have someone specific in mind who made such an argument, you should address them, not me.

Quote:
If you think they're they only people identifying as "antifa" in Portland, you're really not paying attention.
I didn't say that. But the connection between communists and antifa is far stronger than any connection between Andy Ngo and Nazis.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:34 AM   #122
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 23,582
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you still pretending Any Ngo is a journalist?
Is there something about him that you know that the rest of us don't?

Please explain what you mean by this.

As far as I can tell, that's exactly what he is. He may have opinions that you don't agree with, but he's still a journalist as far as I can tell.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:38 AM   #123
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,862
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are we supposed to be pretending he's a fascist?

I don’t know about fascist, but he is an anti-Muslim hate monger. At least we now know where Baylor got his geography lesson about the horrifying conditions in London:
The Wall Street Journal ran a cowardly, race-baiting article on 'Islamic England': I live there. They're dead wrong (Business Insider, Aug. 31, 2018)

So it’s important that we all get up and defend Ngo's freedom to spread lies!
If he is not an actual fascist, he sure as hell knows how to encourage them!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:40 AM   #124
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,862
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't say that. But the connection between communists and antifa is far stronger than any connection between Andy Ngo and Nazis.

Could you elaborate on that?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:41 AM   #125
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,694
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don’t know about fascist, but he is an anti-Muslim hate monger. At least we now know where Baylor got his geography lesson about the horrifying conditions in London:
The Wall Street Journal ran a cowardly, race-baiting article on 'Islamic England': I live there. They're dead wrong (Business Insider, Aug. 31, 2018)

So it’s important that we all get up and defend Ngo's freedom to spread lies!
If he is not an actual fascist, he sure as hell knows how to encourage them!
He is a butthole, gotcha.

What illegal actions has he taken to further his goals?
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:43 AM   #126
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,494
Originally Posted by dann View Post
So it’s important that we all get up and defend Ngo's freedom to spread lies!
No. It's important that we all get up and defend Ngo's freedom to not get assaulted. He should have that freedom, shouldn't he?

Because if he doesn't have that, neither does anyone else.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:45 AM   #127
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,699
I find that to be quite true Ziggy
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:48 AM   #128
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,112
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He's not a journalist.
yes he is a journalist and that is precisely why he was targeted and attacked. Not because he is a member or supporter of the Proud Boys, not because he is a white supremacist or NAZI or a fascist, he was attacked because he was already well known to antifa prior to this event because of history as a journalist and blogger.
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:50 AM   #129
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,600
Okay so does anyone want to defend Nazis marching in the street who doesn't think Anifa is the greatest threat to civilization since the Visigoths sacked Rome?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:53 AM   #130
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,675
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you still pretending Any Ngo is a journalist?
The point of having a free press is that everyone is a journalist. TV reporters aren't some elite caste of citizens. The media isn't actually a part of the government - it's just private citizens who have figured out how to monetize the same free expression that is the right of every citizen.

Andy Ngo is just as much a journalist, in every way that matters, as Bob Woodward and Maureen Dowd. Or Rachel Maddow, if that's your poison. I don't have to pretend Ngo is a journalist. Knowing that he's a human being is more than sufficient to establish his journalistic credentials.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:54 AM   #131
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,862
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
He is a butthole, gotcha.

What illegal actions has he taken to further his goals?

Hate-mongering lies don't appear to be illegal. They are protected and encouraged.
I notice that Andy Ngo also defends race ’scientist’ Noah Carl.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:55 AM   #132
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 23,582
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-WAbILUIAAM5nC.jpg
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:55 AM   #133
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,650
"When I was visiting the U.K. as a teenager in 2006, I got lost in an East London market. There I saw a group of women wearing head-to-toe black cloaks. I froze, confused and intimidated by the faceless figures." -Andy Ngo

Blimey - if he was intimidated and confused by a bunch of women, goodness knows what he was doing marching on the streets of Portland.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:56 AM   #134
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,862
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
yes he is a journalist and that is precisely why he was targeted and attacked. Not because he is a member or supporter of the Proud Boys, not because he is a white supremacist or NAZI or a fascist, he was attacked because he was already well known to antifa prior to this event because of history as a journalist and blogger.

And that is the purpose of antifas: to attack all journalists and bloggers, right?!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 09:57 AM   #135
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,494
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so does anyone want to defend Nazis marching in the street who doesn't think Anifa is the greatest threat to civilization since the Visigoths sacked Rome?
Of course Antifa isn't the greatest threat to civilization since the Visigoths. I've been reliably informed that global warming is.

Just because you can only think in hyperbole doesn't mean everyone else is too.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:02 AM   #136
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,112
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Where does Andy Ngo fall in this?
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's exactly the problem. Andy Ngo should fall squarely in the category of people who don't deserve to be assaulted. But your appologism leads to people like him getting assaulted.
thanks Zig, my thoughts exactly.
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:03 AM   #137
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,293
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so does anyone want to defend Nazis marching in the street who doesn't think Anifa is the greatest threat to civilization since the Visigoths sacked Rome?
I don't want to go off-topic, but sure. I'll defend their right to march.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The guy on the right is wearing a "Rose City Antifa" shirt.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:04 AM   #138
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,862
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
"When I was visiting the U.K. as a teenager in 2006, I got lost in an East London market. There I saw a group of women wearing head-to-toe black cloaks. I froze, confused and intimidated by the faceless figures." -Andy Ngo

Blimey - if he was intimidated and confused by a bunch of women, goodness knows what he was doing marching on the streets of Portland.

I have to admit that at one point I was rather scared of the Catholic nuns at the local Catholic Church Sankt Annć. But I wasn't yet in my teens, and they kind of looked liked Belphegor.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:04 AM   #139
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,310
At least Andy's gofundme made over $100k over night. So that's a bonus for him. Silver lining and all that.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:08 AM   #140
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 4,033
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so does anyone want to defend Nazis marching in the street who doesn't think Anifa is the greatest threat to civilization since the Visigoths sacked Rome?
Other than the ACLU?
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:12 AM   #141
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,112
Originally Posted by dann View Post
And that is the purpose of antifas: to attack all journalists and bloggers, right?!
nope, just the disagreeable ones.
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 10:20 AM   #142
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,293
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Other than the ACLU?
I am very skeptical that today's ACLU would automatically defend the Nazis' right to assemble the way that they did in the Frank Collins / Skokie case. The new generation of members is much more comfortable with the idea that speech can actually be violence, having come of age in a time of speech codes, "hate speech," etc.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 11:38 AM   #143
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,113
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If adherents of a violent, genocidal ideology with a history of violent activity showing up in your town en masse carrying weapons and shields doesn't qualify as a clear and present danger; well, then your definition of clear and present danger definitely needs reconsideration.
Well, you would have to use two words and show how they applied.

Those words are "clear" and "present".

It isn't just a phrase. Each word in the phrase has to have meaning.

So, no amount of ideology is going to matter, because that could only ever hint that something might happen. They might be inclined to do things that someone else has done in the past. There will be nothing "clear" about it, because there will be no way to say, "based on their ideology, I think they are about to do X". Likewise, there will be nothing "present", because based on their ideology, at best you can say, "People who think like X might be inclined to do Y", but unless they are actually doing Y right now, then the danger is not "present". That's what "present" means.

The presence of weapons, on the other hand, might be a different story. I would be perfectly willing to restrict people's activities based on possession of weapons while they are doing it. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to make it a condition of a parade or park permit not be carrying weapons, and allow police to revoke their permit if it is found that a significant number of them are aremed, even with "defensive" weapons like shields or pepper spray. When it comes to deadly weapons that can cause death at a distance, i.e. guns, I'm one of those left wing commie pinkos who think that it ought to be just plain illegal to wander about with those things without a permit, and I would make it difficult to get one of those permits, but that's just me. Well, it isn't just me, but it's me and an insufficient number of voters to make it happen in many places.


The constitution guarantees the right to peaceably assemble, but if it's clear that the assembly is not peaceable, then it ought to be dispersed.


Here's the thing, though. That applies to all elements of the political spectrum. I don't care whether they are "good people" or "bad people" or which side they are on. If I see people forming a shield wall in a public place, I'm pretty sure they are up to no good, and I don't care how self righteous they get about the importance of their cause. Get the heck off the street. The only shield walls I want to see are police or SCA, and the SCA people don't put up their shield walls in places that block traffic.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 11:42 AM   #144
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,113
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This isn't a battle between Nazis and everyone else. There are more than two sides. Antifa has a very large communist component. And if you want to appeal to history, the United States has fought some bloody fights with communists too, and communists have killed far more people than Nazis ever did. To use your color swatch analogy, it's not black versus white, it's black vs red vs white. And you want me to ignore the red because you're color blind.
Nazis and communists fighting each other in the streets. I wonder if that has ever happened before. I wonder how it turned out.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 11:46 AM   #145
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,595
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Other than the ACLU?
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I am very skeptical that today's ACLU would automatically defend the Nazis' right to assemble the way that they did in the Frank Collins / Skokie case. The new generation of members is much more comfortable with the idea that speech can actually be violence, having come of age in a time of speech codes, "hate speech," etc.

The ACLU no longer defends neo-Nazis or other alt.right hate groups who advocate and participate in violence; and has become more circumspect about who they do defend.

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/20/161678...harlottesville
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 11:55 AM   #146
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,595
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here's the thing, though. That applies to all elements of the political spectrum. I don't care whether they are "good people" or "bad people" or which side they are on. If I see people forming a shield wall in a public place, I'm pretty sure they are up to no good, and I don't care how self righteous they get about the importance of their cause. Get the heck off the street. The only shield walls I want to see are police or SCA, and the SCA people don't put up their shield walls in places that block traffic.

So no self-defense is legitimate then? If the police refuse to do anything about the violent right-wing gangs, then the rest of us are just supposed to accept being beaten and possibly even killed so that you can continue to pretend you have the moral high ground? Are you really saying that the violent racist thugs should be allowed to control the streets, because that is the upshot of what you are saying. The police have very often shown great reluctance to interfere with the violent racists, because they themselves are in large part violent racists. So what options are left for those of us who don't want to see our cities taken over by violent racists?

Quote:
Get the heck off the street.

And what if the fascists decide to, oh I don't know, invade a church and start attacking parishioners (like happened at Charlottesville), are you going to decry the parishioners for fighting back and insist that they shouldn't have been in the church? How bad does the situation have to get before you'll acknowledge that people have a right to defend themselves and their communities?
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 11:57 AM   #147
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,595
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Nazis and communists fighting each other in the streets. I wonder if that has ever happened before. I wonder how it turned out.

In the US? More times in the last 70 years or so than I can count right now. And mostly just ended up with a buncha people being arrested; and a few dead on both sides, though mostly on the communist side, because the government has generally been on the side of the Nazis.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:13 PM   #148
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,926
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
To engage in said test I would have to violate forum rules on cross thread posting. So no I will not get a yellow card for you.

I think my point is obvious without getting myself an infraction thank you.
I understand entirely.

In that case, PM me a few links that support your point, and I'll share your list with any interested parties. Thank you in advance.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:14 PM   #149
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,113
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So no self-defense is legitimate then?

Defending themselves from what?
How does forming a shield wall on a public street constitute self defense of anything?


Unless you can describe, specifically, the violence from which they were protecting themselves, then the danger is not clear.


Unless that violence is happening, or about to happen, immediately, then the danger is not present.


In order to say that speech constitutes a threat, both elements have to be present. (note dual meaning of "present").


I just don't understand how people forming a shield wall to block a path could ever be considered "self defense".


Now, that "shield wall" stuff was really a reference to earlier issues, as far as I know, but in Portland this weekend, something else happened. In this case, one group of right wing idiots were told to go to one park. A different group of right wing idiots were told to go to a different park. The left wing idiots were told to go to a third park. According to a report linked earlier in this thread, some of the left wing idiots left their assigned park and initiated confrontations with the right wing idiots.

I don't know how I can find any sort of "self defense" on the part of any of the idiots, but I can be absolutely certain that when the left wing idiots left their park and approached the right wing idiots' park, the left wing idiots were not defending themselves.

I can also be certain that they are all idiots.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 1st July 2019 at 12:16 PM.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:17 PM   #150
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,494
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So no self-defense is legitimate then?
The law permits self defense under certain conditions. Unless you think current self-defense laws are too restrictive, then self defense isn't actually at issue here.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:19 PM   #151
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,113
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So what options are left for those of us who don't want to see our cities taken over by violent racists?

Do they have a parade permit? Set up a concession stand and sell them cool drinks, at a profit. I don't recommend milkshakes, though.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:31 PM   #152
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,675
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The constitution guarantees the right to peaceably assemble, but if it's clear that the assembly is not peaceable, then it ought to be dispersed.
I bet that if pressed, the Supreme Court would probably rule that it's possible to exercise the right to peaceably assemble, and exercise the right to bear arms, simultaneously. I think they'd probably rule that bearing arms is not by itself sufficient justification to infringe on their right of assembly.

Especially in an environment where the opposition faction has made it clear that they intend to use violence to suppress or disperse such assemblies.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:35 PM   #153
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,675
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Nazis Fascists and communists fighting each other in the streets. I wonder if that has ever happened before. I wonder how it turned out.
Adjusted to align better with my answer.

My answer is: It depends where you're talking about. In Germany, the fascists won. In Russia, the communists. In the US, both sides were shrugged off (though the communists achieved a toehold in popular culture that they still cling to even now).

In a lot of places, it wasn't even the fascists. The communists were just fighting whatever the established order was in the country, if it wasn't already communism. In some countries, even if it was already communism.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:40 PM   #154
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 19,113
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I bet that if pressed, the Supreme Court would probably rule that it's possible to exercise the right to peaceably assemble, and exercise the right to bear arms, simultaneously. I think they'd probably rule that bearing arms is not by itself sufficient justification to infringe on their right of assembly.

Especially in an environment where the opposition faction has made it clear that they intend to use violence to suppress or disperse such assemblies.
You are probably correct, but I suspect it would be a split decision, and I would be on the side of "it's ok to revoke the permit".

When a whole bunch of people show up with weapons, whether those weapons are guns, shields, or milkshakes, they aren't looking for anything peaceful.

Of course, this whole thing depends on the ability and willingness of the police to protect people, and sometimes, the police decide that the safest path is to tolerate the low level violence between the groups for fear that police intervention would just escalate the violence, not to mention redirect it toward the police. I feel sympathy for those on the ground who have to make the decision.
Meadmaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:42 PM   #155
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,494
BTW, Oregon is an open carry state. In Portland, openly carried guns have to be unloaded unless you have a concealed carry permit.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 12:50 PM   #156
portlandatheist
Illuminator
 
portlandatheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,112
https://twitter.com/AndrewYang/statu...55562816266240
Quote:
I hope @MrAndyNgo is okay. Journalists should be safe to report on a protest without being targeted.
Andrew Yang is the first of the democrat candidates to denounce the violence. Will the others do the same?
portlandatheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:04 PM   #157
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,595
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Defending themselves from what?
How does forming a shield wall on a public street constitute self defense of anything?

Did you miss the whole Charlottesville debacle? Would certainly have been useful there when the fascists started stomping unarmed, non-violent protesters. The protesters formed a wall without shields, and got beaten because of it.

Quote:
Unless you can describe, specifically, the violence from which they were protecting themselves, then the danger is not clear.

See above. Also the Patriot Prayer rally where they came armed with firearms and set up snipers on a nearby parking garage roof.

Quote:
I can also be certain that they are all idiots.

Perhaps. But one group of idiots is trying to actively intimidate and harm anyone who isn't their brand of white fascist, another group of idiots is at least trying to prevent the white fascists from harming those who aren't white fascists while the government does nothing to defend said non-white non-fascists, while a third group of idiots is sitting safely behind their keyboards whinging about how they can't tell the difference between the first two groups. I know which groups of idiots I'm more sympathetic to.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:12 PM   #158
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,494
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
another group of idiots is at least trying to prevent the white fascists from harming those who aren't white fascists
How does beating up Andy Ngo fit into that?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:16 PM   #159
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,310
Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
https://twitter.com/AndrewYang/statu...55562816266240


Andrew Yang is the first of the democrat candidates to denounce the violence. Will the others do the same?
I'm sure there were fine people on both sides.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2019, 01:30 PM   #160
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,675
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm sure there were fine people on both sides.
Unironically? I'm sure there were.

---

I'm curious: Do you have a good source for the original quote?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.