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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:31 AM   #321
luchog
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A tiny group of nutcases go out and bash another tiny group of nutcases and in their minds, they are saving the world from nazism.

There is no point in addressing the rest of your post beyond this, because this is so profoundly wrong that it makes everything else you posted here gibberish.

Antifa is not a tiny group of nutcases going out and committing street violence. That is only a very, very, very small fraction of the number of people who identify as antifa, or who fall until the antifa umbrella. The tip of a much larger iceberg.

"Antifa" merely means "anti-fascist". That's it. Antifa(csist). Anyone who engages in activism to oppose fascism is antifa. Whether that's protesting against fascist rallies in the streets, sitting behind a computer and outing fascists (a popular activity for disabled people who can't go out into the streets), organizing get-out-the-vote programs, assisting with campaigns for progressive and other anti-fascist politicians, pressuring local politicians into taking action against fascists, reporting on the activity of fascist organizations and police support for fascists, all of these are antifa activities. The attempt to tar all of them with the brush of a tiny fraction who engage in direct action and occasionally take things a bit too far, says far more about you and your worldview than it does about them.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:35 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
There is no point in addressing the rest of your post beyond this, because this is so profoundly wrong that it makes everything else you posted here gibberish.



Antifa is not a tiny group of nutcases going out and committing street violence. That is only a very, very, very small fraction of the number of people who identify as antifa, or who fall until the antifa umbrella. The tip of a much larger iceberg.



"Antifa" merely means "anti-fascist". That's it. Antifa(csist). Anyone who engages in activism to oppose fascism is antifa. Whether that's protesting against fascist rallies in the streets, sitting behind a computer and outing fascists (a popular activity for disabled people who can't go out into the streets), organizing get-out-the-vote programs, assisting with campaigns for progressive and other anti-fascist politicians, pressuring local politicians into taking action against fascists, reporting on the activity of fascist organizations and police support for fascists, all of these are antifa activities. The attempt to tar all of them with the brush of a tiny fraction who engage in direct action and occasionally take things a bit too far, says far more about you and your worldview than it does about them.
Exactly just like democratic republic just means North Korea is a democratic republic
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:36 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Did he say "Kill all muslims"? No.

Did he imply "If something isn't done, soon all of the West will be like this." Yes. "Would someone rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

The latter is read as a direct call to action by many extreme rightwingers, the same type of people Andy Ngo regularly hangs around in Portland.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If you squint hard enough, anything is incitement. Words are violence brah.

It's called, "plausible deniability".

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=336883
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:43 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Exactly just like democratic republic just means North Korea is a democratic republic
There ya go, again.

Are you denying that antifa is a larger movement than just the skirmishers? That'd be pretty thick. While you're at it with yet another horrible analogy, do you deny that the words Democratic and Republic actually have known definitions? Are all Republics dictatorships? All Democracies? All Democratic Republics?

Or are you just poisoning the well?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:43 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's called, "plausible deniability".



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=336883
It's called beating him up because of what he's "saying" before someone else gets beaten up "because" of what he's "saying".

I think if you really are concerned about stochastic terrorism, then you absolutely must send a clear message that this kind of political violence is never acceptable.

On that scale, the comments of several posters in this thread weigh far heavier than anything we've seen here from Andy Ngo.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:44 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, he does. He couches it in terms of "protecting freedom of speech". He also contributes to the demonization of the enemies of the extreme right, thus contributing to radicalization. Hell, the Nazis themselves see Shapiro as a useful tool in their recruitment efforts, despite him being Jewish, or possibly because of it. It's all about being "crypto".

ETA: Here's an article explaining where Shapiro lies on the radicalization spectrum.
Shapiro is less of a recruiter for terrorists than a lot of posters here. Lots of people here demonize the other side and conflate different groups into an existential threat requiring immediate extra-legal violent action. But they haven’t morphed into the fascists they despise, no sir!
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:45 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, he does. He couches it in terms of "protecting freedom of speech". He also contributes to the demonization of the enemies of the extreme right, thus contributing to radicalization. Hell, the Nazis themselves see Shapiro as a useful tool in their recruitment efforts, despite him being Jewish, or possibly because of it. It's all about being "crypto".

ETA: Here's an article explaining where Shapiro lies on the radicalization spectrum.
“She then moved on to writings by Ben Shapiro and articles on Breitbart which bridged the gap to the notorious white supremacist and anti-Semitic propaganda site Stormfront.”

I call bull ****. Shapiro doesn't bridge any gap to antisemitism. It's laughable on its face. This is a smear job, an attempt to use guilt by association. The tell is that it never even mentions a single thing Shapiro actually said. You wouldn't accept this level of logic to blame Bernie Sanders for James Hodgkinson, why should we accept it here?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:46 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There isn't a useful bright line right now. This is virgin soil. Research is on going.
Sorry, but no. This soil has been tilled so often that it's sort of amazing to find it still productive.

Here is a book recommendation from way back in the day.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi..._on_the_Fringe

Let me know if you find anything new under the sun.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:47 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
"Antifa" merely means "anti-fascist". That's it. Antifa(csist). Anyone who engages in activism to oppose fascism is antifa.
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's called, "plausible deniability".
The lack of self-awareness going on here is really something to behold.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:48 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The lack of self-awareness going on here is really something to behold.

I've been saying that all along, and yet you and others continue to excuse the fascists white supremacists and engage in false equivalency fallacies.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:01 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I've been saying that all along
Not about yourself, you haven't.

Quote:
and yet you and others continue to excuse the fascists white supremacists and engage in false equivalency fallacies.
Andy Ngo isn't a fascist white supremacist. And you're actually excusing actual violence, you're in no position to lecture me.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:04 AM   #332
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It's depressing - but entirely predictable (and even predicted!) - that some of the same people who were just assuring us a bit of political egging is as far as it goes, are now excusing political head-clubbing.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:08 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's depressing - but entirely predictable (and even predicted!) - that some of the same people who were just assuring us a bit of political egging is as far as it goes, are now excusing political head-clubbing.

Or "It's only actual NAZIs" to "NAZI adjacent", to "slightly to the right of Che".

Been said countless times before, but it's no longer about acceptable/unacceptable behavior, but acceptable/unacceptable targets. And the line for who is considered to be Fair Game gets pushed further and further along.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:13 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Or "It's only actual NAZIs" to "NAZI adjacent", to "slightly to the right of Che".

Been said countless times before, but it's no longer about acceptable/unacceptable behavior, but acceptable/unacceptable targets. And the line for who is considered to be Fair Game gets pushed further and further along.
Yep, also predicted. I bet there are a lot of posts in the egging thread that haven't aged well at all.

Where do you come down on the idea of having a civil discussion about what "nazi" actually means, before we go about cracking skulls?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:35 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nice.

Here's a film of Proud Boys in Portland being really nice boys.

https://twitter.com/DavidNeiwert/sta...21528711811072

They are "right wing protesters", by the way.
Good job side stepping everything I wrote and posting a video from a year ago you actually believe makes a case, for.. something?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:36 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Or "It's only actual NAZIs" to "NAZI adjacent", to "slightly to the right of Che".
Yes there is a big difference between a table of 10 nazis and one of their friends and a table of 11 nazis. It would be like thinking that just because the unite the right rally was put on by white supremacists and organized by them that there weren't fine people there to support the confederacy and its view that the role of the negro is to be subservient to the white. Thats history there.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:41 AM   #337
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Look when you deal with journalists you are supposed to do it in proper ways like with a bone saw. That is how you deal with enemies of the people and that is the kind of action all conservatives will quietly support. Good to see the enemies of the american people get what they have coming to them.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:45 AM   #338
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It is starting to make sense: Andy Ngo isn't a real journalist, he is "fake news" and an "enemy of the people" and something "ought to be done about it". Also Jews and Asians we don't like are NAZIs.
You're right theprestige, the milkshake apologists are unsurprisingly head clubbing apologists.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:56 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yep, also predicted. I bet there are a lot of posts in the egging thread that haven't aged well at all.

Where do you come down on the idea of having a civil discussion about what "nazi" actually means, before we go about cracking skulls?

I think drawing the line at actual incitement before curtailing speech is a sound idea. I also think there is an interesting discussion to be had about when a political principal or official policy of a party (a lot of alliteration ...) crosses the line into incitement (vs. merely being objectionable, or odious absent actual implementation). Trouble is I have zero faith that that sort of nuance is at all possible on ISF right now. Never mind the issue of 'on a scale of 1-10 I'd draw the line at a 3, you would draw at 5', there's far too much of people treating another's "3" as if it were an "8".
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:16 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'd say we have a better version than the 1A. We have free speech, but with clauses for prohibited speech. You are, for example, not allowed to say "Muslims are all animals" on facebook. That's a crime. As it should be.

And, despite having these laws, we are able to not drop down any slippery slopes.
I'm going to guess you are talking about the UK?

Don't worry you are already half down it. I don't trust a government that doest trust me with a locking multitool. You may want a Gouverneur to act like your parent I don't.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:19 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, I definitely wouldn't. I'm far too obstreperous and quintessentially American. People telling me I can't say things really makes me want to say them. Controlling speech triggers my revolutionary instincts.
I call this the butterfly-knife effect.

Balisong are actually terrible knives ,over expensive ,less functional than most things a quarter their price. But still most knife collectors will risk severe penalties and own one. Sole because they are banned.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:25 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
There isn't a useful bright line right now. This is virgin soil. Research is on going. I edited my last post with an article about the role Shapiro and people like him play in radicalizing young white men into becoming white supremacist terrorists.
You realize that is just " this rap music is making the kids criminals" but in a different hat right?

What you need to understand is that while most serial killers like violent media it doesn't create them they are simply drawn to it.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:28 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I've been saying that all along, and yet you and others continue to excuse the fascists white supremacists and engage in false equivalency fallacies.
You are the one calling a Korean a white supremacist.

You realize that white supremacists have an auto censored word for his people right?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:30 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's depressing - but entirely predictable (and even predicted!) - that some of the same people who were just assuring us a bit of political egging is as far as it goes, are now excusing political head-clubbing.
And they will excuse eve step on the road to hell because their enemies are further ahead than they are.

( I'm sleepy and may have stolen that quote from 40k)
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:33 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You are the one calling a Korean a white supremacist.

You realize that white supremacists have an auto censored word for his people right?
Yep and we also know that Mike Enoch was never a real nazi, because of his jewish wife. All the pro holocaust stuff was just an act and not a big deal that no one should take seriously.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:35 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And they will excuse eve step on the road to hell because their enemies are further ahead than they are.

( I'm sleepy and may have stolen that quote from 40k)
In the grim dark future of politics, there is only heresy and xenos.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:36 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In the grim dark future of politics, there is only heresy and xenos.
And dairy-based confection drink weaponry.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:41 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And dairy-based confection drink weaponry.
Or, as Alex Jones put it on his Monday show, Portland Antifa's alleged acid / cement-infused milkshakes were "hundreds of containers of chemical weapons."
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:42 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Or, as Alex Jones put it on his Monday show, Portland Antifa's alleged acid / cement-infused milkshakes were "hundreds of containers of chemical weapons."
I guess technically every weapon is not only a chemical weapon but atomic as well!
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:43 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Or, as Alex Jones put it on his Monday show, Portland Antifa's alleged acid / cement-infused milkshakes were "hundreds of containers of chemical weapons."
Technically true, but effectively fake news.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 10:04 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Or, as Alex Jones put it on his Monday show, Portland Antifa's alleged acid / cement-infused milkshakes were "hundreds of containers of chemical weapons."

Except, of course, that's been totally debunked. There were no acid- or cement-infused milkshakes. They were, in fact, vegan milkshakes that the police tried to say were cement.

Be fair though, that's an easy mistake to make.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:10 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They sure can be.

Pizzagate was just another wacky internet conspiracy theory, right up until the bullets started flying.
That is just wrong, it was always important and taken seriously. I mean if such things are of interest to our former National Security Advisor you can't right them off as wacky internet conspiracy theories.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...spiracy-thoer/

These are clearly serious issues being taken seriously by top administration officials.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:46 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except, of course, that's been totally debunked. There were no acid- or cement-infused milkshakes. They were, in fact, vegan milkshakes that the police tried to say were cement.

Be fair though, that's an easy mistake to make.
Maybe they got the shake from McDs? Those McShake things are basically solid frozen ice cream stuff. Frozen as hard as cement, you might say
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:02 PM   #354
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'll give them a free pass to fight fascists, because that means someone does it. Law enforcement won't give them a free pass, however, and they should face punishment for what they do.
I think in the long run that normalizing violence in politics will favor the fascists.

Given that antifa members tend to also be hard-core communists, you could come to regret supporting their violence.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:15 PM   #355
dann
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
They sure can be.

Pizzagate was just another wacky internet conspiracy theory, right up until the bullets started flying.

Which is why it's so important to protect their right to invent stories like Pizzagate! After all, stories are just words, and words never hurt anybody. You know, 'sticks and stones' ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:17 PM   #356
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Which is why it's so important to protect their right to invent stories like Pizzagate! After all, stories are just words, and words never hurt anybody. You know, 'sticks and stones' ...
Exactly like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, harmless fiction.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:46 PM   #357
Bouncing Bettys
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet they are fine with the ties to those who want all gays dead. Like they are fine with those who propage nazi propaganda. So they are quislings and not nazis. And I note that you made a point that they know how you feel, well do you know how they feel? If not how do you know they are not fine associating with such people?
Wanting and actually doing are two different things. Meanwhile we have an influential group of progressives getting cozy with Islam. They push terms like Islamophobia into law, attempting to make it so we can't even question the religion. They push for immigrants to bring their home life/beliefs to the West rather than assimilation. That same home life and beliefs where people not only want all gays dead, they act on them by throwing them off buildings. What a world we live in.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:23 PM   #358
sadhatter
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think in the long run that normalizing violence in politics will favor the fascists.

Given that antifa members tend to also be hard-core communists, you could come to regret supporting their violence.
Very much so especially when one considers the fact that preppers, gun enthusiasts, knife enthusiasts, self defense enthusiasts, and members of the military tend to lean more toward the right.

And antifa.... well as someone who is into non gunpowder using self defense items I will say they don't like to spend over 20 dollars at the army surplus, and they tend to pick really stupid items for that 20.

So if one wants to draw an us and them line starting at " any opinion that is conservative" they just made sure we are at a severe disadvantage. But they are blond enough to think that 10 vegans with credit card knives are a match for 10 rednecks with pistols.

That's what to much tv does to someone. The good guys don't magically win because they are good. Tactics are nessecary.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 10:17 PM   #359
portlandatheist
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, harmless fiction.
Which was published in 1903 and has done incalculable harm. It's available online and from Amazon. As a thought experiment, what would we need to do to prohibit it? How would we enforce it? What measures would be too far?
It becomes truly problematic and impossible to even consider.
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:02 AM   #360
dann
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Certain publications are forbidden and difficult to get hold of. Kiddie porn and how-to-make-bombs manuals, for instance.
Why do you think that it's "truly problematic and impossible to even consider" measures against publications like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - unless it's because you want them to be available to everybody? Mein Kampf used to be illegal in many countries. I don't know if it still is. Lies like the stories about Pizzagate that inspire terrorists ought be illegal, too.
In my opinion, historical lies like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion should be made available for everybody but with proper notes so that the ill-informed don't confuse them with reality. Ngo's lies about Muslims in London should only be available with proper warnings and notes from fact checkers, too. Then he can't claim that he's been censured, and people who are apt to believe his lies can't claim that they haven't been warned.
Don't you think that the lies that inspired the Australian terrorist in Christchurch did "incalculable harm"?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 4th July 2019 at 12:05 AM.
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