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Tags anti-semitism charges , Jeremy Corbyn , labour party , Seumas Milne , uk politics

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Old 11th July 2019, 06:42 AM   #1
Giz
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The Labour party has a serious racism problem

“BBC Panorama spoke to former party officials, who alleged they had to deal with a huge increase in anti-Semitism complaints since Mr Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015.
Eight former officials who worked in the team and dealt with anti-Semitism cases claimed to the BBC that:

- The leader's office was "angry and obstructive" when it came to the issue
- Officials brought in by the party's general secretary, Jennie Formby, "overruled" some of their disciplinary decisions and "downgraded" punishments to a "slap on the wrist"
- Seumas Milne, one of Mr Corbyn's closest aides, laughed when advised by a long-serving party official about what Mr Corbyn should do to tackle anti-Semitism in the party
- On one occasion, Mr Corbyn's office ordered batches of anti-Semitism complaints to be brought to his Commons office for processing by his aides”

And the Guardian’s take on it (it’s a real problem):
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-jeremy-corbyn
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:10 AM   #2
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Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.
But not just fringe figures. Corbyn and Milne are in the middle of it.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:42 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Probably George Galloway style characters and those from Muslim/Arab communities, both of which have a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.
My understanding is that historically Europeans have also had a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.
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Old 11th July 2019, 12:38 PM   #5
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If there's a way to shoot itself in the foot, Labour will find it.

Jesus, this stuff is stupid.
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Old 11th July 2019, 12:40 PM   #6
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Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.
I agree it's a problem, but the prime beneficiary is Israel.

It allows the country and its insane leaders to commit human rights abuses every day, because criticism is immediately labelled as anti-semitic.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:41 PM   #8
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I think it is safe to say that Corbyn being selected as leader is turning out to be a disaster for Labor. If Labor had a halfway acceptable to people who are not on the far left leader Labor would be looking at a easy win. Instead they seem to be pissing away a golden opportunity against a badly divided and inept Conservative party.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:42 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think it is safe to say that Corbyn being selected as leader is turning out to be a disaster for Labor. If Labor had a halfway acceptable to people who are not on the far left leader Labor would be looking at a easy win. Instead they seem to be pissing away a golden opportunity against a badly divided and inept Conservative party.
I agree wholeheartedly. Those of us in the party who were part of the New Labour movement have said this all along. Then again we were written off as "red Tories" by the old Trots and new joiners (who had no memory of the 79-97 period) and instead they chose Jeremy Corbyn.

I wouldn't have minded if I disagreed with many of his policies* if only he had been an effective leader and if only he didn't have a closet full of skeleton (real and imagined) that the Conservatives and their right wing press could use to distract and deflect whenever he was in a position to actually make a point.

* - apart from Brexit, like Tony Blair's policy on Iraq, Brexit is a deal-breaker
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Old 12th July 2019, 12:05 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree wholeheartedly. Those of us in the party who were part of the New Labour movement have said this all along. Then again we were written off as "red Tories" by the old Trots and new joiners (who had no memory of the 79-97 period) and instead they chose Jeremy Corbyn.

I wouldn't have minded if I disagreed with many of his policies* if only he had been an effective leader and if only he didn't have a closet full of skeleton (real and imagined) that the Conservatives and their right wing press could use to distract and deflect whenever he was in a position to actually make a point.

* - apart from Brexit, like Tony Blair's policy on Iraq, Brexit is a deal-breaker
Let me know if and when this actually happens.

Corbyn is a disaster. When I look back on past PMs, I look on the forthcoming Johnson vs Corbyn election as a battle between two very average flyweights. I have and always will be of the left, but I want Boris to win (and be immediately deposed, of course).
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Old 12th July 2019, 12:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Let me know if and when this actually happens.
It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Corbyn is a disaster. When I look back on past PMs, I look on the forthcoming Johnson vs Corbyn election as a battle between two very average flyweights. I have and always will be of the left, but I want Boris to win (and be immediately deposed, of course).
IMO Boris will wipe the floor with Corbyn because the character he plays is designed to appeal to the British public, he uses long words and a significant proportion of the UK electorate seem to like a toff.
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Old 12th July 2019, 10:42 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My understanding is that historically Europeans have also had a strong tendency to be anti-semitic.
Yeah but we're talking about the present, and the fact is that Muslim's, especially Arabs ones, have a strong tendency to be antisemitic.

This isn't even something that is exclusive to Labour or the UK. Typically it's left-wing parties that have sought voters among immigrant communities, a large portion of which are Muslim or originate from Muslim countries. These run a real risk of either coopting, or even being captured, on the local levels by people whose opinions are often completely contrary to what their party notionally stands for.
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Old 15th July 2019, 10:16 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.
Straight out of the playbook (i.e. that it's orchestrated).

Here are some others (about anti-Semitism):

In September 2017, general secretary of Unite the Union, Len McCluskey said that the row "was created by people who were trying to undermine Jeremy Corbyn

In May 2019, Labour National Executive Committee member Peter Willsman asserted that the Israeli embassy were "behind all this antisemitism" and were "the ones whipping it all up".


source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antise...39;s_responses


Isn't it nice to see that posters here are so on message.
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Old 15th July 2019, 10:49 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Mixing objective Israel critics with the antisemites does tend to muddy the waters, possibly benefits the antisemites more than anyone else.
Having anti-Israel activists masquerade as "objective critics" also muddies the water.
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Old 15th July 2019, 11:18 AM   #15
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Both major UK parties have a serious racism issue. It only seems to be a 'problem' for one of them though. Can't think why.... oh wait, yes I can.
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Having anti-Israel activists masquerade as "objective critics" also muddies the water.
What's makes you think anti-Israel activists aren't objective critics?
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Old Yesterday, 07:40 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
What's makes you think anti-Israel activists aren't objective critics?
Sanity and the ability to reason properly.
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Old Yesterday, 11:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I agree it's a problem, but the prime beneficiary is Israel.

It allows the country and its insane leaders to commit human rights abuses every day, because criticism is immediately labelled as anti-semitic.
That's one way to look at it.

Another way is that Israel is under unprecedented scrutiny because even the obviously kooky and paranoid criticisms get taken seriously because many of the people waving the flags can't see their own biases.
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Old Yesterday, 12:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That's one way to look at it.

Another way is that Israel is under unprecedented scrutiny because even the obviously kooky and paranoid criticisms get taken seriously because many of the people waving the flags can't see their own biases.
Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86
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Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86
If "critics" of Israel don't need to embrace kooks and paranoids, why do they keep doing it?
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Old Yesterday, 07:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
If "critics" of Israel don't need to embrace kooks and paranoids, why do they keep doing it?
Sorry, I'm not psychic, so I have no idea what drives other people to do it, if it actually happens.

Can you provide evidence that critics of Israel aren't just trolls muddying the water? I ask because Israel's direct policies and actions are quite despicable on their own and making stuff up is unnecessary and unhelpful.

As I said before, the beneficiary of the alleged combining genuine criticism and antisemitism is Israel. It's bloody handy, acting inhumanely towards millions of people, to be able to raise your hands and say "Look at all this antisemtism?" when people ask what the hell's going on.

And it's factual that any criticism of Israel and its revolting human rights record is certain to attract claims of antisemitism, no matter how accurate the criticism.
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Old Today, 01:13 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's already happened several times. Every time he manages to score some points against the Conservatives whether it's about the government's handling of Brexit, the rapid decline of the NHS, the impact of austerity on the poor and disabled or the disaster that is Universal Credit, you can bet that in the next couple of days there'll be something in the paper about Corbyn's past. Usually it's about his love of the IRA or Islamic extremists, sometimes it's about his past relationship with Dianne Abbot and sometimes it's just fingerpointing at his lifestyle.



IMO Boris will wipe the floor with Corbyn because the character he plays is designed to appeal to the British public, he uses long words and a significant proportion of the UK electorate seem to like a toff.
I think the classic example was when the government was making a pig's ear of the Cumbrian floods, Corbyn decided it was tine to reopen the case for joint sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.
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Old Today, 06:31 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think the classic example was when the government was making a pig's ear of the Cumbrian floods, Corbyn decided it was tine to reopen the case for joint sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

You're determined string this one out, aren't you?
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Old Today, 12:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
You're determined string this one out, aren't you?
Well it's a stonking example of really bad tactics. If your political opponents are making a mess - you don't come out with something that the vast majority of British voters don't care about, and which is also unpopular.

Also, given the history of the habitation of the Falkland Islands, with no permanent residents until the British colonists, and their strong desire to remain under British rule - it's also wrongheaded.

ETA: I have also only mentioned it a couple of times
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Old Today, 12:45 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think the classic example was when the government was making a pig's ear of the Cumbrian floods, Corbyn decided it was tine to reopen the case for joint sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.
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Old Today, 12:45 PM   #26
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Old Today, 01:14 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yeah, critics of Israel really need to embrace kooks and paranoids because Israel provides so little ammunition against their own administration.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b02a5a5d5e5f86
Religious nutter says something nutty and is widely condemned for it by people from his own party and the Israeli public in general.

To me this seems like an issue where the condemnation should go to Rafi Peretz the individual nutter who made the nutter statements, but for some bizarro reason you think it should reflect on all of Israel? I don't follow your reasoning.

My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Can you provide evidence that critics of Israel aren't just trolls muddying the water?
Does it matter? If so, why?

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I ask because Israel's direct policies and actions are quite despicable on their own and making stuff up is unnecessary and unhelpful.
Maybe if you ignore the context of a multi-generational conflict, but ignoring that context would be incorrect.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
As I said before, the beneficiary of the alleged combining genuine criticism and antisemitism is Israel.
That's one point of view. Another is that the legitimate criticisms get amplified tremendously both through the actions of overt anti-Semites and also by how its received by those unaware of their own biases.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It's bloody handy, acting inhumanely towards millions of people, to be able to raise your hands and say "Look at all this antisemtism?" when people ask what the hell's going on.
As someone who follows the issues closely, I can attest it is not true that all criticisms of Israel are deflected by charges of anti-Semitism. At the same time, criticism of Israel is certainly exacerbated by anti-Semitism, so discussion of the issue is certainly relevant and well-poisoning efforts such as this one are misplaced.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And it's factual that any criticism of Israel and its revolting human rights record is certain to attract claims of antisemitism, no matter how accurate the criticism.
No, that's not factual at all.

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Old Today, 01:45 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole.

.
That's not true. The US as a whole comes in for a host of criticism because of its leaders and their policies as well as for the population who vote for them. Of course that criticism is never taken as a personal insult to every member of the population but a criticism of the regime overall.

The confusion seems to be that since Israel sets itself as a religious ethnostate then criticism of the state is seen as criticism of the ethnicity.
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Old Today, 02:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That's not true. The US as a whole comes in for a host of criticism because of its leaders and their policies as well as for the population who vote for them.
Show me some examples?
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Old Today, 02:06 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Religious nutter says something nutty and is widely condemned for it by people from his own party and the Israeli public in general.
But is still Minister of Education.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
To me this seems like an issue where the condemnation should go to Rafi Peretz the individual nutter who made the nutter statements, but for some bizarro reason you think it should reflect on all of Israel? I don't follow your reasoning.
Is he still the Minister of Education?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it), but critics rightly condemn her as an individual and the administration that appointed her, not the United States as a whole.
Donald Trump is one man, and he reflects very badly on USA.

Vote for nutters, expect to be called nutters.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Does it matter? If so, why?
Of course it matters - it's the whole point. We know for certain that people will pretend to be something they're not to advance an opposite agenda, so to have a fair discussion on the subject, evidence of what is really happening would be kinda useful.

I know that some criticism of Israel is due to antisemitism, but how much?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Maybe if you ignore the context of a multi-generational conflict, but ignoring that context would be incorrect.
Ah, history. Yeah, that's important.

Unless you happen to have had your land confiscated in 1948.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That's one point of view. Another is that the legitimate criticisms get amplified tremendously both through the actions of overt anti-Semites and also by how its received by those unaware of their own biases.
See above re: evidence.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
As someone who follows the issues closely, I can attest it is not true that all criticisms of Israel are deflected by charges of anti-Semitism.
"Not all".

I guess that's fine then.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
At the same time, criticism of Israel is certainly exacerbated by anti-Semitism,...
See above regarding evidence.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
...so discussion of the issue is certainly relevant
and well-poisoning efforts such as this one are misplaced.
"Well poisoning."

Nice.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No, that's not factual at all.
Again, I'd need to see some evidence, because my own knowledge certainly shows it to be true most of the time. It's a ridiculously polarising topic.

If I criticise Israel, I get called antisemitic; I stage an anti-protestor protest against clowns trying to stop Israeli players at a tournament and I get called a Jew.

To go back onto the topic of Labour and antisemitism, yes, it has been a problem for the left in general, but how much of it, like Omar's comments, have people screeching "antisemtism!" when it actually isn't?
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Old Today, 03:24 PM   #31
Ron Obvious
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

My own country also has a nutter in charge of education who has made nutter statements (such as schools should keep guns on hand in case of bears, which is also pretty anti-gay if you think about it)
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