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Old 11th July 2019, 03:17 PM   #1
theprestige
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Trump loses battle over citizenship question.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/u...ve-action.html

Nuclear war when?
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:25 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Either that or a temper tantrum.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:51 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Either that or a temper tantrum.
I admit hadn't considered that possibility. What would such a thing look like?
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:53 PM   #4
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He's pretending he'll get the information elsewhere without realizing that won't affect the Census or redistricting. Or he realizes that and he only wants to fool his followers.

I'll put my relevant post in this thread.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:54 PM   #5
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So is it a threat, political propaganda like claiming the wall is being built, or what?

Here's the plan from Trump's press conference today (CNN):
Quote:
"We are not backing down on our effort to determine the citizenship status of the US population," Trump said in laying out a plan to issue an executive order asking US departments and agencies to find ways to determine a head-count of citizens.
Trump said agencies would be required to provide the Commerce Department with documents and records of citizens and non-citizens, which he said would help provide an accurate picture of US citizenship....

The Census Bureau, which falls under the Commerce Department, has long favored using administrative records -- including data from the Social Security Administration, IRS, US Citizenship and Immigration Services and the State Department -- to gather citizenship data, rather than asking individuals to self-report their status on the census itself.
Congress will not agree to fund this either. Is Trump going to call it another emergency? Surely this will cost a billion or more.

Maybe he's going to gut the Commerce Department budget to do this instead of whatever else they do?

I think it's just Trump rationalizing to himself how he didn't back down, he didn't fail, when he did fail.

And whether they gather this information or not, it's the Census that redistricting is based on.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:27 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I admit hadn't considered that possibility. What would such a thing look like?
You should know by now. Trump throws them regularly.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I admit hadn't considered that possibility. What would such a thing look like?
We'd know if they had recorded the infrastructure meeting with Pelosi he stormed out of in a snit. We see his Twitter tantrums almost daily.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We'd know if they had recorded the infrastructure meeting with Pelosi he stormed out of in a snit. We see his Twitter tantrums almost daily.
Oh ****. A tweetstorm. Hold on... gotta unclench my pearls there.

Okay.

Where were we?

Oh, right, you were saying that an event that was not recorded, and that Pelosi has no reason to represent accurately, is your example of a Trump tantrum?
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:28 PM   #9
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Two notes

-this is what the bureau recommended and they refused to do a year and a half ago.

-why did they try and move the attorneys?
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:57 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh ****. A tweetstorm. Hold on... gotta unclench my pearls there.

Okay.

Where were we?

Oh, right, you were saying that an event that was not recorded, and that Pelosi has no reason to represent accurately, is your example of a Trump tantrum?
Per usual, you ask for something, you get it, and then you excuse it away with a snide remark.

Face it, there could be a video of Trump pounding his fists and feet on the floor and holding his breath until he turns blue and you find some reason why it really isn't a tantrum.

Trump has a history of angry outbursts when he doesn't have his way:

Quote:
Schumer called the outburst “concocted.” Trump tweeted back a complete denial, asserting that he had been “extremely calm” during the meeting, and that the bogus charges were a product of Pelosi and Schumer’s scheming “with their partner, the Fake News Media.”
Quote:
Remember when he slammed his hands on the table and stormed out of a White House meeting with Pelosi in January when she refused to fund a border wall in return for reopening the government? “I don’t have temper tantrums,” Trump said at the time. Then he gave evidence that he really had been pissed, saying, “I didn’t smash the table—I should have, but I didn’t smash the table.” Or his December encounter with Schumer, in which Schumer accused him of a “temper tantrum”?

A strong case can be made that the Trump presidency was born in a tantrum, as he raged in January 2017 that the size of his inauguration crowd had eclipsed all others. He yelled at his TV, The Associated Press reported in June 2017, to protest the coverage of the investigation of his administration. The next month, while trying to repeal the Affordable Care Act, Trump warned the world, “I will be very angry“ if Republican senators don’t vote his way. And how else to describe Trump’s famous showdown with CNN reporter Jim Acosta but a tantrum?
Quote:
Trump biographer Timothy L. O’Brien says the hissy fits are “standard operating procedure for him.” The bad temper is real, but he can feign outrage when needed, “usually when he feels he’s been embarrassed publicly. And then he wants to invite the world to share his pain.”
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...antrums-226979

Of course, Trump denied it declaring he was 'extremely calm' (before declaring he was a 'very stable genius') and then asked several of his staffers what his demeanor was the day before. They, almost to a person, repeated like robots that he was 'very calm'. Of course, they would have no reason to say otherwise, right? You prefer to believe the man with over 10,000 verified lies while in office...so far. I prefer to believe what my own eyes have shown me over the last 3 years. But then again, I really shouldn't believe my 'lying eyes', should I?
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:47 PM   #11
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He caved. Again. Tantrums always follow.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:57 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
He caved. Again. Tantrums always follow.
I think the portrayal that "he caved" is absurd. More correctly "he lost". Constantly defying the courts is wrong.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think the portrayal that "he caved" is absurd. More correctly "he lost". Constantly defying the courts is wrong.
Fair enough. And that's the way Trump has always behaved. In his prior experience, there's never been a judge that doesn't have a price.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Fair enough. And that's the way Trump has always behaved. In his prior experience, there's never been a judge that doesn't have a price.
This is as mature and Presidential as Trump has acted in 2 and a half years. I doubt it will last. But I'll take it at this moment.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:27 PM   #15
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In his announcement didn't he also say something about how with this executive order the records compiled about citizenship numbers can be used by states for redistricting?
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:28 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think it's just Trump rationalizing to himself how he didn't back down, he didn't fail, when he did fail.

And whether they gather this information or not, it's the Census that redistricting is based on.
This has been a serious failing on the media's reporting. Every story headline mentions "getting the data elsewhere." The data was never the point. The purpose was to intimidate brown people into not filling out the census, thus lowering their congressional representation.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
In his announcement didn't he also say something about how with this executive order the records compiled about citizenship numbers can be used by states for redistricting?
Yeah and Mexico is paying for the wall.

It ain't gonna happen. The Census gets used, nothing else.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:39 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
This has been a serious failing on the media's reporting. Every story headline mentions "getting the data elsewhere." The data was never the point. The purpose was to intimidate brown people into not filling out the census, thus lowering their congressional representation.
I noticed something else, Trump declared he would have all these state agencies "turn over their data".

And just what data is that? It's not like states are tracking who is a citizen and who isn't. In what data base pray tell, is this data?

He can't write an EO claiming it is an emergency this data be collected and Congress will not vote for it nor fund it.

The EO is going nowhere.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I noticed something else, Trump declared he would have all these state agencies "turn over their data".

And just what data is that? It's not like states are tracking who is a citizen and who isn't. In what data base pray tell, is this data?

He can't write an EO claiming it is an emergency this data be collected and Congress will not vote for it nor fund it.

The EO is going nowhere.
I think it's time to re-empanel that Blue Ribbon Commission on Finding Nothing that found all those illegal voters.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I think it's time to re-empanel that Blue Ribbon Commission on Finding Nothing that found all those illegal voters.
Good idea.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I noticed something else, Trump declared he would have all these state agencies "turn over their data".

And just what data is that? It's not like states are tracking who is a citizen and who isn't. In what data base pray tell, is this data?

He can't write an EO claiming it is an emergency this data be collected and Congress will not vote for it nor fund it.

The EO is going nowhere.
This EO is tossing red meat to his base.

We have good data on how many non citizens live in the United States from the American Community Survey. Trump’s base loves the idea of the government collecting a list of names so we can round them all up.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:39 AM   #22
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For the Democrats, more immigrants (Especially illegals) means they can get a pool of voters ready to go the moment a Democrat gets elected a la Tammany Hall. That said Illegal Immigrants consider the United States to be fundamentally illegitimate ("No One Is Illegal on Stolen Land!" is a common cry) is secondary.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
For the Democrats, more immigrants (Especially illegals) means they can get a pool of voters ready to go the moment a Democrat gets elected a la Tammany Hall. That said Illegal Immigrants consider the United States to be fundamentally illegitimate ("No One Is Illegal on Stolen Land!" is a common cry) is secondary.

Second verse, same as the first.

You didn't have any citations beyond a fringe group or two the last time you made this claim.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Second verse, same as the first.

You didn't have any citations beyond a fringe group or two the last time you made this claim.
Google it. It's quite a common rallying cry. Saying "Stolen land" is rejecting the legitimacy of the country you immigrated to, in this case the US.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:08 AM   #25
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18 months to get this done, now he is admitting total failure.

The funny thing is that, 18 months ago, it was 100% possible for the Trump administration to get this done in such a way as to pass court review. Trump's incompetence and management by chaos resulted in this utter failure.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
18 months to get this done, now he is admitting total failure.

The funny thing is that, 18 months ago, it was 100% possible for the Trump administration to get this done in such a way as to pass court review. Trump's incompetence and management by chaos resulted in this utter failure.
This works out better for him. He gets to play the victim card, he gives the impression to his base that he's doing everything he can to protect them against the consequences of illegal immigration, he gets to drive the news cycle for a few days.

OTOH a competent administration would have had this done and dusted in a day and no more would have been said about it.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:55 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think the portrayal that "he caved" is absurd. More correctly "he lost". Constantly defying the courts is wrong.
He's been an entitled loser his whole life.
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Old 12th July 2019, 08:00 AM   #28
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Would an executive order to put the question on the census have violated the supreme Court decision? It was based on the administrative procedures act. Does that act apply to executive orders? The supreme Court didn't state pretext arguments were unconstitutional.
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Old 12th July 2019, 08:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I think it's time to re-empanel that Blue Ribbon Commission on Finding Nothing that found all those illegal voters.
That was my first thought too. Kris Kobach is running for Senate but he spelled his own name wrong in the filing. Maybe he has time to run this data-mining project on the side.
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Old 12th July 2019, 08:18 AM   #30
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He lost the game he's got everyone convinced he's playing.

He won the game he absolutely is playing.

Two sides can both win when they aren't playing the same game.

He gave up on the Census. I absolutely within a metaphysical certainty am sure that means another way to annoy the Libs has popped in his head. Give it a couple days, tops, and we'll have our next "OMG LOOKIT THIS OUTRAGEOUS THING TRUMP IS DOING!"

He's still doing the one man Gish Gallop. Keep his opponents in a state of constant outrage, but a constant shuffle of what the outrage is about.
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Old 12th July 2019, 11:35 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
For the Democrats, more immigrants (Especially illegals) means they can get a pool of voters ready to go the moment a Democrat gets elected a la Tammany Hall. That said Illegal Immigrants consider the United States to be fundamentally illegitimate ("No One Is Illegal on Stolen Land!" is a common cry) is secondary.
My BS detector just exploded after that.
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Old 12th July 2019, 11:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
For the Democrats, more immigrants (Especially illegals) means they can get a pool of voters ready to go the moment a Democrat gets elected a la Tammany Hall. That said Illegal Immigrants consider the United States to be fundamentally illegitimate ("No One Is Illegal on Stolen Land!" is a common cry) is secondary.
I think most federal laws are bad. I put little stock in the fact that there people broke a federal law.
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Old 12th July 2019, 12:33 PM   #33
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I'm glad Trump lost.
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Old 12th July 2019, 05:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm glad Trump lost.
When Trump fails, the nation succeeds.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
For the Democrats, more immigrants (Especially illegals) means they can get a pool of voters ready to go the moment a Democrat gets elected a la Tammany Hall. That said Illegal Immigrants consider the United States to be fundamentally illegitimate ("No One Is Illegal on Stolen Land!" is a common cry) is secondary.
How? Many immigrants cannot vote until they become citizens. And no illigals can vote, at all, and tend to not have a path to citizenship.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:40 PM   #36
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Illegals voting is one of the biggest current stupid rightwing memes. Promoted by Trump, of course.
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Old 12th July 2019, 06:51 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm glad Trump lost.
I'm glad he didn't push a SCOTUS defiance. It shows he's not there yet.

NWO, your posts show you are waaaay out of touch.


Back to the Commerce Dept data, I went mining.

I think someone told Trump about this: American Community Survey (ACS)

Low and behold I just filled that out, required by law, including a visit by hired ground worker to come find out why I had not returned it. And yes, it asked me if I was a citizen.

Currently it might help Trump with propaganda, but not so much with gerrymandering and short-changing certain districts.

"3.5 million households across the country" so it's not an unimpeachable data base.

Quote:
The Census Bureau is legally bound to strict confidentiality requirements and we never reveal your identity to anybody else. When you respond to the American Community Survey, your individual records are not shared with anyone, including federal agencies and law enforcement entities. By law, the Census Bureau cannot share respondents' answers with anyone, -- not the IRS, not the FBI, not the CIA, and not with any other government agency.
There is no legal way this data can be added into the assessment of representation and a Trump EO would be immediately challenged in court.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm glad he didn't push a SCOTUS defiance. It shows he's not there yet.

NWO, your posts show you are waaaay out of touch.


Back to the Commerce Dept data, I went mining.

I think someone told Trump about this: American Community Survey (ACS)

Low and behold I just filled that out, required by law, including a visit by hired ground worker to come find out why I had not returned it. And yes, it asked me if I was a citizen.

Currently it might help Trump with propaganda, but not so much with gerrymandering and short-changing certain districts.

"3.5 million households across the country" so it's not an unimpeachable data base.



There is no legal way this data can be added into the assessment of representation and a Trump EO would be immediately challenged in court.
I'm equally curious as to just how much his directive is smoke and mirrors. He's ordered "all" federal agencies to report their citizenship data? Just which federal agencies keep a record of such information? Who keeps such records? Is there a citizenship box to fill out on applications for camping permits in national parks? Does the USPS keep this data? ATF? Department of Commerce? Transportation?

There's no mechanism to get all this data because it's not a required field on anything other than applications to Immigration/State for visas and entry permits.

I predict this will disappear as an issue. Trump lost a battle and was going to continue to lose if he pursued it. Slimebucket Barr was the only person with any legal knowledge who thought they could still finesse it. He's blowing smoke up the asses of the True Believers.
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:36 PM   #39
NWO Sentryman
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
How? Many immigrants cannot vote until they become citizens. And no illigals can vote, at all, and tend to not have a path to citizenship.
It's more the next democrat president would go "hey guess who just got citizenship via amnesty now?"
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Old 12th July 2019, 07:50 PM   #40
Armitage72
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
It's more the next democrat president would go "hey guess who just got citizenship via amnesty now?"

The previous amnesty from President Reagan made illegal immigrants legal immigrants. It didn't magically turn them into citizens. There's an established process for that.
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