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Old 4th August 2019, 03:56 AM   #81
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Because they have a bilateral agreement with the UK on this question, which has nothing to do with the EU.
An agreement which can be scrapped unilaterally at any time.
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Old 4th August 2019, 04:22 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Steven Barclay, the Brexit secretary once again attempting to reenact the "Nobody move or the ****** gets it !" scene from Blazing Saddles:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49223319
It concerns me that British government ministers are still so delusional. Do they not understand that the EU will always put its political interest ahead of narrow economic issues?
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Old 4th August 2019, 05:10 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
It concerns me that British government ministers are still so delusional. Do they not understand that the EU will always put its political interest ahead of narrow economic issues?
They're gambling that a big enough economic catastrophe looming nearer will make the political interests seem less important.
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Old 4th August 2019, 05:14 AM   #84
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
It concerns me that British government ministers are still so delusional. Do they not understand that the EU will always put its political interest ahead of narrow economic issues?
The only goal is to attempt to shift the blame to the EU. Brexiteers will buy it. Because Brexiteers are either thick or ideologically driven to accept whatever they want to be true or, often, both.
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Old 4th August 2019, 05:20 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The only goal is to attempt to shift the blame to the EU. Brexiteers will buy it. Because Brexiteers are either thick or ideologically driven to accept whatever they want to be true or, often, both.
Don't forget the small proportion who are insulated by virtue of foreign investments, who are just hoping for a massive killing.
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Old 4th August 2019, 05:32 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
They're gambling that a big enough economic catastrophe looming nearer will make the political interests seem less important.
.....but apparently that's only the case for foreigners, Brits will hold fast in the face of a self inflicted economic catastrophe and if anything, draw up more red lines. :
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Old 4th August 2019, 05:51 AM   #87
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As far as trade deals goes I can't quite see how threatening to renege on the 39 Billion we had agreed to pay the EU is going to make such negotiations easier, though of course in the case of the USA where the negotiation is likely to consist of the US saying 'here's our terms take them or leave them', it may not have much impact.
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Old 4th August 2019, 06:04 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
It concerns me that British government ministers are still so delusional. Do they not understand that the EU will always put its political interest ahead of narrow economic issues?
Well at least going by the public statements, the British (including Boris Johnson) were convinced that German car makers and Italian cheese producers would be able to strong arm their governments into conceding to whatever the British demanded, only because they wanted to sell their goods in the UK.
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Old 4th August 2019, 08:14 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well at least going by the public statements, the British (including Boris Johnson) were convinced that German car makers and Italian cheese producers would be able to strong arm their governments into conceding to whatever the British demanded, only because they wanted to sell their goods in the UK.
But it is obvious to everybody else that this is not going to be the case. I think Archie Gemmel's Goal has it about right. It's more a case of pretending to Brexiteers that we are stronger than we really are.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:01 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Blue Bubble View Post
Here's a very interesting idea from Fintan O'Toole in today's The Irish Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/f...-how-1.3972121

Read the article for more.

Thoughts ?
The key assumption made is that Sinn Feinn wants to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

The most likely result of a hard Brexit that matters to Sinn Feinn is Irish reunification after a few years of chaos at no blame to them. Why would they throw away an asset like that?

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Old 5th August 2019, 01:47 AM   #91
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I do love the idea that a vote failing, that would have passed if all Brexit-supporting MPs had voted for it, is somehow the fault of the remain supporting MPs.

That's some seriously delusional ********.

But I suppose if you are a believer in Brexit and the sunny uplands, then going all White Queen probably seems perfectly reasonable.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:55 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I do love the idea that a vote failing, that would have passed if all Brexit-supporting MPs had voted for it, is somehow the fault of the remain supporting MPs.

That's some seriously delusional ********.

But I suppose if you are a believer in Brexit and the sunny uplands, then going all White Queen probably seems perfectly reasonable.
Yup, it's like blaming the vegetarians when the meat eaters cannot decide between the chicken and the beef for dinner.
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Old 5th August 2019, 02:31 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yup, it's like blaming the vegetarians when the meat eaters cannot decide between the chicken and the beef for dinner.
Vegetarians are inherently evil. Don't compare me to one please

Anyway, a sensible answer to that conundrum is "both", which is inapplicable for Brexit I'm afraid.

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Old 5th August 2019, 02:51 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Vegetarians are inherently evil. Don't compare me to one please

Anyway, a sensible answer to that conundrum is "both", which is inapplicable for Brexit I'm afraid.

McHrozni
In a way it is, except the both would be getting beef or chicken for dinner while at the same time keeping the cows and chickens alive for milk and eggs and then blaming the vegetarians for not enabling this.

And lets face it, promising contradictory results, without explaining how to get those results and then blaming everyone else for not delivering is exactly like the brexit has been handled from the beginning.
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Old 5th August 2019, 02:55 AM   #95
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
In a way it is, except the both would be getting beef or chicken for dinner while at the same time keeping the cows and chickens alive for milk and eggs and then blaming the vegetarians for not enabling this.

And lets face it, promising contradictory results, without explaining how to get those results and then blaming everyone else for not delivering is exactly like the brexit has been handled from the beginning.
Yeah. The expansion above greatly improves the analogy
Can you add a pony in there somewhere? I love ponies.

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Old 5th August 2019, 04:35 AM   #96
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Of course, it will be the bestest pony ever. It will be your friend and talk to you and do anything you want.

You could have had it YEARS ago, but the evil EU forbade it, something with grossly unethical conduct and rules about genetic engineering, but soon the UK will be free to do whatever large corporations want!
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:40 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I do love the idea that a vote failing, that would have passed if all Brexit-supporting MPs had voted for it, is somehow the fault of the remain supporting MPs.

That's some seriously delusional ********.

But I suppose if you are a believer in Brexit and the sunny uplands, then going all White Queen probably seems perfectly reasonable.
You're missing the main fact that the "deal" they were voting on was a remain-led one. So the opposition wouldn't vote for it because, essentially, they're the opposition and vote against almost all government proposals; and the Brexit-supporting MPs wouldn't vote for it because it wasn't a proper Brexit - it was so weak and watered down that remaining would have been better.

Also, it made NO DIFFERENCE how the Brexit-supporting Tories voted. If the opposition and the DUP remained solid in voting against, the Tories could all vote for, against, or abstain - whatever the Tories voted the deal would still have failed.

I expected more remainers to vote for it - it ticked the box of saying that we'd 'left the EU', while keeping us tied into EU rules potentially in perpetuity. Anyway, the remainers missed their chance and that ship has now sailed.

Last edited by ceptimus; 5th August 2019 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 5th August 2019, 05:08 AM   #98
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No.
No rewriting history again.
It was not a remain deal.

If it was a remain deal then we would be remaining.

Just because TM was part of the remain campaign does not automatically make her prime ministership a remain one! Had she been a remain PM then we would not have had the daft red lines she placed up to keep the right of her party in line.

And stop it with the DUP!
They are as Brexit-extreme as the ERG!
If all the Remain supporters can go in one box, then so can all the Brexit supporters.

FFS, you really are desperate to portray the incompetence of the Leave MPs as somehow the fault of Remain ones.
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Old 5th August 2019, 05:33 AM   #99
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You don't understand do you? The Leave MPs got exactly what they wanted - the "deal" was defeated. How can you possibly portray that as incompetence?
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Old 5th August 2019, 05:40 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You don't understand do you? The Leave MPs got exactly what they wanted - the "deal" was defeated. How can you possibly portray that as incompetence?
Because they aren't competent enough to come up with a deal that commands majority support in Parliament and which upholds the GFA and which is acceptable to the EU.

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Old 5th August 2019, 05:42 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Because they aren't competent enough to come up with a deal that commands majority support in Parliament and which upholds the GFA and which is acceptable to the EU.

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No. May wasn't competent to come up with a deal that could pass - because she was, at heart, a remainer.

The Brexit-supporting MPs not only got rid of her rubbish deal, they got rid of her too! How anyone can portray this as incompetence on their part beggars belief.
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Old 5th August 2019, 05:53 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. May wasn't competent to come up with a deal that could pass - because she was, at heart, a remainer.

The Brexit-supporting MPs not only got rid of her rubbish deal, they got rid of her too! How anyone can portray this as incompetence on their part beggars belief.
Because May was the only one to actually come up with a plan?
Farage washed his hands 2 seconds after the referendum and none of the others ever actually came up with a realistic brexit plan either?

The only thing ever to come from the brexit camp is what they don't want, so what they will get eventually is nothing. It's a pity for the British I guess, but at least the UK will be a good example of the work together or hang separately attitude the small European economies will need if they want to deal with China and the US.
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Old 5th August 2019, 05:54 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. May wasn't competent to come up with a deal that could pass - because she was, at heart, a remainer.

The Brexit-supporting MPs not only got rid of her rubbish deal, they got rid of her too! How anyone can portray this as incompetence on their part beggars belief.
I thought it was a succession of Leave-supporting Brexit secretaries who were responsible for coming up with a deal. Of course they couldn't have the "all the benefits and none of the responsibilities" unicorns and rainbows deal that they said that they were going to get - what with all the government's red lines and all.

So I guess the Leave supporters now get what they apparently want - no deal - despite this being repeatedly dismissed as a possibility by the Leave campaign.
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:06 AM   #104
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And yet more history rewriting in an attempt to show that a No Deal Brexit is what they all (that is all Leavers) wanted in the first place.

And, of course, no balls to actually say this should be taken to the country to see whether that is actually correct.
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:21 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And yet more history rewriting in an attempt to show that a No Deal Brexit is what they all (that is all Leavers) wanted in the first place.

And, of course, no balls to actually say this should be taken to the country to see whether that is actually correct.
Because the Leavers know that they'd lose that vote most likely

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Old 5th August 2019, 06:22 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I thought it was a succession of Leave-supporting Brexit secretaries who were responsible for coming up with a deal.
Then you were wrong. None of them were allowed to do what they wanted by their boss, May - that's why they resigned. May didn't even bother to pretend that the latest one she appointed, Barclay, was anything other than her mouthpiece.
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:23 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And yet more history rewriting in an attempt to show that a No Deal Brexit is what they all (that is all Leavers) wanted in the first place.

And, of course, no balls to actually say this should be taken to the country to see whether that is actually correct.
Wrong again. They all want a deal - including Boris and Rees Mogg. What they won't accept is May's surrender deal.
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:35 AM   #108
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What they won't accept is reality.

And the reality is May's deal or out with nothing.

Actually, the reality is a general election, which is what Johnson's bribes are all about.
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:36 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Then you were wrong. None of them were allowed to do what they wanted by their boss, May - that's why they resigned. May didn't even bother to pretend that the latest one she appointed, Barclay, was anything other than her mouthpiece.
Completely rewriting history again I see
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:05 AM   #110
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No. You're the one attempting to do that.

Let's look at the evidence. First, everyone calls it "Mrs May's deal" - not the Davis-Raab deal or some similar name. Next, you will remember May gathering all her cabinet together at Chequers last autumn to force through her deal - it was 'accept my deal or be sacked'. Sacking meant that the cabinet ministers couldn't even use their ministerial cars to get back home, so Davis and Johnson chose instead to resign in the days immediately following. Last, we all know why Raab resigned, because he told us at the time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46221896
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #111
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They call it May's deal because she was PM, and they want to ensure that she (and not them) get tagged with it.

And last autumn was over two years after the referendum, and after Davis had resigned.
Remember Davis? The guy who lied about having detailed economic impact statements? Who couldn't be arsed to actually be present during most of the negotiations? Arch Brexiter? That one?

No.
The failures were down to Leavers and their inability to accept reality.
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:15 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. You're the one attempting to do that.

Let's look at the evidence. First, everyone calls it "Mrs May's deal" - not the Davis-Raab deal or some similar name. Next, you will remember May gathering all her cabinet together at Chequers last autumn to force through her deal - it was 'accept my deal or be sacked'. Sacking meant that the cabinet ministers couldn't even use their ministerial cars to get back home, so Davis and Johnson chose instead to resign in the days immediately following. Last, we all know why Raab resigned, because he told us at the time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46221896
It's called Mrs May's deal because she's the one who presented to parliament after a succession of Leave-supporting Brexit secretaries comprehensively failed to negotiate anything else/better. That doesn't mean that they weren't given every opportunity and that they didn't significantly shape the deal.

Of course they were fundamentally hamstrung from the start by the red lines which prevented EEA or customs union membership (although the Leave campaign promised both - though to be fair the Remain campaign pointed out that they were both incompatible with the Leave campaign's demands) but then again the hardline Brexiteers wanted more and more robust redlines so it's unlikely they would have been able to extract a "better" deal.

So now we end up with no deal at all and WTO terms
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:17 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
They call it May's deal because she was PM, and they want to ensure that she (and not them) get tagged with it.

And last autumn was over two years after the referendum, and after Davis had resigned.
Remember Davis? The guy who lied about having detailed economic impact statements? Who couldn't be arsed to actually be present during most of the negotiations? Arch Brexiter? That one?

No.
The failures were down to Leavers and their inability to accept reality.
Davis resigned AFTER Mrs May summoned the cabinet to Chequers and told them all to support her deal or be sacked.



I apologise for saying 'autumn' I see the Chequers meeting was on 6th July, so I should have said 'summer'.

Last edited by ceptimus; 5th August 2019 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:22 AM   #114
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How long did that lazy toad Davis spend negotiating the easiest deal in history within May's red lines before he realised that wasn't Brexit at all?
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:25 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
How long did that lazy toad Davis spend negotiating the easiest deal in history within May's red lines before he realised that wasn't Brexit at all?
No good attempting to blame him. Davis didn't even want to agree to allow the EU to separate the 'divorce deal' from the 'future trade deal'. If he'd been allowed by May to negotiate the way he wanted (more like Boris is attempting to now) then we'd never have had May's pathetic deal in the first place and we wouldn't have wasted almost two years...
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:27 AM   #116
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"Our brilliant, flawless, all-icing cake, will-basically-implement-itself of a plan is only seeming to not work out because of coordinated acts of sabotage and subterfuge!"

Be careful, this is where populist demagoguery turns from "distrust outsiders" to a more insidious "distrust each other."
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:38 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No good attempting to blame him. Davis didn't even want to agree to allow the EU to separate the 'divorce deal' from the 'future trade deal'. If he'd been allowed by May to negotiate the way he wanted (more like Boris is attempting to now) then we'd never have had May's pathetic deal in the first place and we wouldn't have wasted almost two years...
So I shouldn't blame him for wasting all that time negotiating a deal he didn't want. I should blame the EU for consistently saying they would not negotiate a new deal while we were still members, hence the need for a withdrawal agreement. He should just have demanded they do because, let me guess, they need us more than we need them?
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:44 AM   #118
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For those confused by the continuation title, I give you the Magic 8-Ball.
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:53 AM   #119
abaddon
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No good attempting to blame him. Davis didn't even want to agree to allow the EU to separate the 'divorce deal' from the 'future trade deal'. If he'd been allowed by May to negotiate the way he wanted (more like Boris is attempting to now) then we'd never have had May's pathetic deal in the first place and we wouldn't have wasted almost two years...
What negotiations has Boris undertaken? None at all. Boris has no plan. What alternative to May's deal do the Brexiteers have? None at all.
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Old 5th August 2019, 07:53 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
For those confused by the continuation title, I give you the Magic 8-Ball.
You can even get a magic 8-ball app for your smartphone. I call mine our "Corporate Strategy Planner".
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