The Hawaii 30 Meter Telescope Controversy

JoeMorgue

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JoeMorgue
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I'm curious what other people think about this whole controversy.

Long story short some people want to build a telescope on a site in Hawaii, other people say site is sacred, and the entire discussion has been dipped in the "But America colonized Hawaii" baggage.

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"
 
I like astronomy amd science too, but that doesn't mean I think it's okay to perform it wherever I find it convenient despite other people's claims to the land. Who actually owns the place? That's the critical point.

Just because other people's notions are silly doesn't mean they have no legal right to property.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm curious what other people think about this whole controversy.

Long story short some people want to build a telescope on a site in Hawaii, other people say site is sacred, and the entire discussion has been dipped in the "But America colonized Hawaii" baggage.

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"
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I guess the question is, how would you feel if someone took over the US and decided that they wanted to bulldoze the Statue of Liberty to put up a telescope, fill in the Grand Canyon to install a particle accelerator, and blow up Mouth Rushmore for a spaceport. Trampling all over others' beliefs and traditions just because Science is not the way to do things.
 
PhantomWolf said:
I guess the question is, how would you feel if someone took over the US and decided that they wanted to bulldoze the Statue of Liberty to put up a telescope, fill in the Grand Canyon to install a particle accelerator, and blow up Mouth Rushmore for a spaceport. Trampling all over others' beliefs and traditions just because Science is not the way to do things.
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There are a lot of good reasons why Mauna Kea is the optimal place for this particular super important science instrument. Which is why there are already a dozen telescopes of various kinds on top of the mountain. Which is part of why I have little sympathy for their protests, they've been building telescopes up there for decades but suddenly this one telescope is the one that defiles it? How so?


Anyways, if someone can explain why the Statue of Liberty is an important location for a science instrument and I'll personally push the button to implode it.



I do, however, feel that there is a bit of a bad colonizer vibe to all this though. I think the telescope is super important but having it built in such a way that so many historically repressed people are basically bullied? That does leave a bad taste in my mouth. As such I do think that other locations should be vigorously scouted for and my understanding is that they did do a broad search already but.....crap I don't know.
 
PhantomWolf said:
I guess the question is, how would you feel if someone took over the US and decided that they wanted to bulldoze the Statue of Liberty to put up a telescope, fill in the Grand Canyon to install a particle accelerator, and blow up Mouth Rushmore for a spaceport. Trampling all over others' beliefs and traditions just because Science is not the way to do things.
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Imagine if someone defaced Mount Rushmore! Outrageous...
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm curious what other people think about this whole controversy.

Long story short some people want to build a telescope on a site in Hawaii, other people say site is sacred, and the entire discussion has been dipped in the "But America colonized Hawaii" baggage.

Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"
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I commend you on perfectly encapsulating the precise excuse used by imperialists everywhere at every time used for bullying and stealing and enslaving another peoples.

Did it just not occur to you that other humans have some inherent worth and value just by being human and they don't owe you or anyone else any good goddamn reason for their wanting to have some control over their own immediate environment; especially one which was stolen from them and is being kept from them to this day?

I'm as anti-theism as the next guy but your arrogant mocking of a people BUH BUH BUH MAH MAGIC SKY DADDY SAID SO I thought should be beneath your dignity.
 
It's an interesting topic. I find I side with the telescope. The objections are phrased on religious grounds, but they boil down to a claim of ownership. There's no particular practice or ritual that this particular telescope would disturb, it's purely symbolic. They are claiming the entire mountain.

I'm sure there's plenty of case law regarding mainland churches objecting to government development of local property, and I doubt it's sided with the churches very often, especially when the church doesn't actually own the land being developed, beliefs notwithstanding.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
It's an interesting topic. I find I side with the telescope. The objections are phrased on religious grounds, but they boil down to a claim of ownership. There's no particular practice or ritual that this particular telescope would disturb, it's purely symbolic. They are claiming the entire mountain.
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Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?
 
The Norseman said:
I commend you on perfectly encapsulating the precise excuse used by imperialists everywhere at every time used for bullying and stealing and enslaving another peoples.

Did it just not occur to you that other humans have some inherent worth and value just by being human and they don't owe you or anyone else any good goddamn reason for their wanting to have some control over their own immediate environment; especially one which was stolen from them and is being kept from them to this day?

I'm as anti-theism as the next guy but your arrogant mocking of a people BUH BUH BUH MAH MAGIC SKY DADDY SAID SO I thought should be beneath your dignity.
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Replace mountain with stem cell research or replacing creationism with evolution in textbooks and see how that argument holds up.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?
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Same place everyone else does. Best case scenario for them, the government files for eminent domain and does it anyway.

[ETA] I should emphasize the word "best." This protest is intertwined with a Hawaiian separatist movement, with simple racism at its core. Exactly as you say, only descendants to the natives of the land. They could make a lot of hay out of a little validation.
 
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Beelzebuddy said:
Same place everyone else does. Best case scenario for them, the government files for eminent domain and does it anyway.
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Cause as we all know, taking land off of the Natives and giving it to the white man is pretty much Colonialist 101, right....
 
PhantomWolf said:
Cause as we all know, taking land off of the Natives and giving it to the white man is pretty much Colonialist 101, right....
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Which I'm sympathetic to, but that's not the stated goal of the protest. They're claiming ownership on grounds of religious infringement. Whether they have a claim to the mountain or not, it doesn't infringe their religion.
 
I'd have to know more about it before venturing an opinion. Does anyone have a link to an article that fairly represents the arguments on both sides?
 
So am I going to get a reason I should side with magical thinking instead of scientific thinking that isn't based on white guilt?

How is this functionally different from "NO DON'T TOUCH THOSE STEM CELLS IT MAKES THE BABY JESUS CRY!?" Please note that "Well you see white evangelists are here and native Hawaiians are here on the 'Official Victim Ranking Chart'" is not a functional difference.

Religious dogma doesn't become a good thing when it's hippie Earth magic nonsense coming from non-white people.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I'd have to know more about it before venturing an opinion. Does anyone have a link to an article that fairly represents the arguments on both sides?
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I used Wikipedia but a few things that stuck out to me:

Mauna Kea is the most sacred mountain in Hawaiian culture. The mountain is also conservation land held in trust by the state of Hawaii.
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So it's not really just a run-of-the-mill mountain. It is literally the most sacred mountain they have in their culture. Wikipedia doesn't really mention "sky daddy" or religion, just their culture. Which I suppose religion can be apart of.

This has been going on since 2015 apparently. It appears the permit that they got to build the scope was overturned by the Hawaii Supreme Court in 2015, and the people building the telescope didn't press any further.

On December 2, 2015, the Supreme Court of Hawaii invalidated the TMT's building permits
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But:

A revised permit was approved on September 28, 2017 by the Hawaii Board of Land and Natural Resources. On October 30, 2018, the Supreme Court of Hawaii ruled, 4-1, that the revised permit was acceptable and construction may proceed.
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It looks like those building the telescope have been open to listening to the community, have followed the letter of the law, and have done everything asked of them.

I would say let them build the scope, though I say it with a groan because I believe the people should have the final say. In this case, I would have liked to see it go to a public vote.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?
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Absolutely nowhere.

"People like me used to live here" is meaningless nonsense.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Me personally "OMG WHITE PEOPOLES WITH THEIR COLONIALISM!" isn't enough for me to shift allegiance in the ongoing battle between "Advance our understanding of the universe with science by building new tools" and "BUT MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY SAY MOUNTAIN IN SPECIAL!"
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Someone who thinks "magic man in the sky say mountain is special" probably isn't very interested in advancing our understanding of the universe.
 
The Norseman said:
I commend you on perfectly encapsulating the precise excuse used by imperialists everywhere at every time used for bullying and stealing and enslaving another peoples.

Did it just not occur to you that other humans have some inherent worth (snip)
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Dude, they're building a telescope, not bringing back segregation.
 
Belz... said:
Someone who thinks "magic man in the sky say mountain is special" probably isn't very interested in advancing our understanding of the universe.
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Yeah which is why I'm not on their side in the argument but apparently that makes me a white devil colonizer.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like, they are only descendants to the natives of the land, where do they get off claiming ownership of it?
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You mean, now that they're a US state?

Pterodactyl said:
Replace mountain with stem cell research or replacing creationism with evolution in textbooks and see how that argument holds up.
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Yeah but that's white man belief, so it can be safely mocked.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah which is why I'm not on their side in the argument but apparently that makes me a white devil colonizer.
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Humans never do anything half-measure, do they? They're either actual colonialists or they go full into white guilt. There's no in-between.

Look, I'm sorry people with my skin colour-ish took your land, and hopefully we won't do that anymore. No, I won't give you my house to compensate. No, I won't give you money, either. Get a job.
 
I don't think there is a simple answer as to who is right in this particular issue. Yes, I am repelled by people opposing science because of superstitious religious beliefs. But culture and cultural identity are real and crucial aspects of how people see themselves and give meaning to their lives. And the cultural importance of a location, a ritual, a style of dress, etc. to a person can be very real even when it is based on a belief in a non-existant God and a mythical creation story. I can fully understand and respect Hawaiians who see Mauna Kea as having extra special meaning to them, and accept that this special meaning needs to be acknowledged in decision making without seeing it as religion trumping science.

In my mind religion is irrelevant in this issue; it relates instead to the broader issue of recognizing the importance of someone's culture to them and trying to respect it, to work with it, whenever possible. Add to that the long history of mainland Americans destroying Hawaiian culture: pushing native Hawaiians from their land, imposed teaching of Christianity to their children by missionaries and belittling of their own culture, etc. I imagine one would become a bit touchy about anything that might resemble that today. And how it would feel if one's feelings and deep beliefs appeared to be meaningless and unimportant to those in government who supposedly were representing you?

That said, there are already many, many telescopes on this site (I've been there - very impressive). And I would very much like to see the 30 meter telescope built.

So what I hope for is a compromise. Frankly I think one should be possible because these compromises helped the other telescopes to be built.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Absolutely nowhere.

"People like me used to live here" is meaningless nonsense.
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But that is exactly the basis of the existence of most countries and nations throughout the world. "People like me used to live here, as did their children, and their children's children...all the way until they got to me. And my children will own it when I am dead." In some cases, like Israel, there are long breaks in the middle part, yet Israelis nonetheless believe that they own the land they are on because "people like me used to live here."

So agree or not with the legitimacy of this concept, it appears to be the approach that underlies most of how people have assigned geography.
 
Well I'm a "bit touchy" about scientific progress being held back by magical thinking and I promise you it's a very, very, very important part of "my culture."
 
JoeMorgue said:
Well I'm a "bit touchy" about scientific progress being held back by magical thinking and I promise you it's a very, very, very important part of "my culture."
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Then you won't mind your house being Kelo'ed to build a new particle accelerator lab. Although the science portions of the building will be adjacent, your land is just going to be where they put the cafeteria. Thursdays will be half-price bagel days! Plain only.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Then you won't mind your house being Kelo'ed to build a new particle accelerator lab. Although the science portions of the building will be adjacent, your land is just going to be where they put the cafeteria. Thursdays will be half-price bagel days! Plain only.
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Gotcha fail. 2/10.

If there's an objective reason my house is the best place to build a new particle accelerator and there's already a dozen particle accelerators in my house oh and it's isn't "my house" it's just a random house in the neighborhood that I don't actually own but that my imaginary friend told me is "special and can't be touched because he says so" then use by all means take the house to build the accelerator no matter how much I complain.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
Gotcha fail. 2/10.

If there's an objective reason my house is the best place to build a new particle accelerator and there's already a dozen particle accelerators in my house oh and it's isn't "my house" it's just a random house in the neighborhood that I don't actually own but that my imaginary friend told me is "special and can't be touched because he says so" then use by all means take the house to build the accelerator.
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Then we agree: feelings and motivations and purposes are irrelevant, what matters is property rights. Whoever owns the volcano gets to decide what to do on it. (Although if they plan to trigger an eruption they'd better keep it confined within their property line.)
 
TragicMonkey said:
Then we agree: feelings and motivations and purposes are irrelevant, what matters is property rights. Whoever owns the volcano gets to decide what to do on it. (Although if they plan to trigger an eruption they'd better keep it confined within their property line.)
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As long as we're talking legal ownership and not some backdoor definition, then yes.
 
JoeMorgue said:
So am I going to get a reason I should side with magical thinking instead of scientific thinking that isn't based on white guilt?

How is this functionally different from "NO DON'T TOUCH THOSE STEM CELLS IT MAKES THE BABY JESUS CRY!?" Please note that "Well you see white evangelists are here and native Hawaiians are here on the 'Official Victim Ranking Chart'" is not a functional difference.

Religious dogma doesn't become a good thing when it's hippie Earth magic nonsense coming from non-white people.
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Here's a ten minute video that does a good job of addressing your concern:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMVSokHAJQ

The way you (and others) are framing the controversy is misleading. It's not about "science" being held back by "religion." No one is saying the telescope shouldn't be built because of their religion, they're just saying it shouldn't be built there, because it's a place that's culturally significant and has a history of being mismanaged. It's complex as hell, and I don't really think there's an easy answer as to who's "right."
 
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ArchSas said:
Here's a ten minute video that does a good job of addressing your concern:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMVSokHAJQ

The way you (and others) are framing the controversy is misleading. It's not about "science" being held back by "religion." No one is saying the telescope shouldn't be built because of their religion, they're just saying it shouldn't be built there, because it's a place that's culturally significant and has a history of being mismanaged.
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The effectiveness of telescopes is directly related to their location. There's a reason the JWST will be located a million miles away from Earth, rather than in LEO, or on the ground. There's a reason Earth-based optical telescopes are placed on mountaintops. There's a reason why this telescope is to be placed here. That reason is science. Telling them to put the telescope somewhere else instead is literally holding back science.

ETA: And as far as "culturally significant" goes, these protestors are signalling that science is not culturally significant to them. There's a lot worse ways to mismanage a culturally significant mountaintop, than putting a telescope on it. For example: Not putting a telescope on it, every chance you get.
 
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theprestige said:
The effectiveness of telescopes is directly related to their location. There's a reason the JWST will be located a million miles away from Earth, rather than in LEO, or on the ground. There's a reason Earth-based optical telescopes are placed on mountaintops. There's a reason why this telescope is to be placed here. That reason is science. Telling them to put the telescope somewhere else instead is literally holding back science.
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If it is that important to Science then I'm sure Science can pony up the funds to purchase the property.
 
Belz... said:
Really? I was under the impression that it was political.

(checks)

Huh, lack of funding, actually.
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One of the faces was originally on the other end, but the rock there was bad and it collapsed. I forget which end/president it was, but he ended up on the other side.
 
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