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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 16th August 2019, 12:49 PM   #81
jond
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!

Wrong ! an excerpt from Allan Kardec's book of spirits
"Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it, and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance."
Yes, we know that you have been completely brainwashed by your religion. Meanwhile Kardec makes it abundantly clear in this quote that he knows nothing about the process of science that he is railing against. Weíre all (most of us anyway) interested in facts. Youíre welcome to believe whatever nonsense you want, but the rest of us require a little evidence before we take seriously any claims. I take it you were lying when you said you were open minded to the idea that consciousness is a process in the brain and not a separate entity?
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:50 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
personal attack on the debate ... it's a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... first read these books ... then you come back here ... http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ do you know what a perispirit is ..? I'm sure you don't know ...
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
personal attack on the debate ... it's a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... first read these books ... then you come back here ... http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ do you know what a perispirit is ..? I'm sure you don't know ...
YOU are the one doing the name-calling. Thus you reveal yourself.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:54 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
personal attack on the debate ... it's a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... first read these books ... then you come back here ... http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ do you know what a perispirit is ..? I'm sure you don't know ...
Demonstrate the existence of a perispirit and weíll be happy to begin discussion about it. If not, itís existence or lack thereof is exactly like that of a Dimentor. Or a Horcrux.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:55 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Yes, we know that you have been completely brainwashed by your religion. Meanwhile Kardec makes it abundantly clear in this quote that he knows nothing about the process of science that he is railing against. Weíre all (most of us anyway) interested in facts. Youíre welcome to believe whatever nonsense you want, but the rest of us require a little evidence before we take seriously any claims. I take it you were lying when you said you were open minded to the idea that consciousness is a process in the brain and not a separate entity?
let's be a real skeptic ... and not a pseudo-skeptic ... it's not just those books on spiritist doctrine the literature is vast .. in the debate is already caught red-handed in ignorance of spiritism or spiritist doctrine! answer me what is perispirit .. pseudo-skeptics debate what they don't know ...
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:56 PM   #86
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I have briefly read some of the spirits book by Kardec, and it is in accord with what I believe. That we incarnate many times, until reaching a state of grace where we do not need any further incarnation. Kardec also says we may also incarnate on other worlds, which is what the mediums I learned from taught.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:57 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have briefly read some of the spirits book by Kardec, and it is in accord with what I believe. That we incarnate many times, until reaching a state of grace where we do not need any further incarnation. Kardec also says we may also incarnate on other worlds, which is what the mediums I learned from taught.
Such as Mars.....
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:01 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Demonstrate the existence of a perispirit and weíll be happy to begin discussion about it. If not, itís existence or lack thereof is exactly like that of a Dimentor. Or a Horcrux.
read these books then come back ok!
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ here you will understand ... that the spiritist doctrine .. is not within the purview of science or scientific method ... ignoring these books is an attitude of pseudo-skeptics ... will you read or not?
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
read these books then come back ok!
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ here you will understand ... that the spiritist doctrine .. is not within the purview of science or scientific method ... ignoring these books is an attitude of pseudo-skeptics ... will you read or not?
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
This is getting repetitive.

I'll wager you can't even describe what a perispirit is.

Read YOUR thread title, and get back to us when it is actually what you want to do.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:04 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
but do you have any knowledge of the spiritist doctrine?

A few of them, yes.

Do you know that there are dozens (that I'm aware of, probably more like thousands of them out there all told) of different spiritist doctrines?

Most of the differences are small, but some of them are not.

You should be able to tell me whether or not my description of the purpose and workings of reincarnation, that is part of the question about reincarnation that I posted, are actually consistent with your own spiritist view of how reincarnation works and what its purpose is. If they're not, you could say, "No, that's now how the doctrine I'm following describes reincarnation, here are the points you got wrong." And that would be the start of a discussion.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:06 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Such as Mars.....
i don't want to convert people ... i'm just saying that they don't know the spiritist doctrine or spiritualism ... and they want to debate about the spiritist doctrine ... so i recommended the books ... later they can accept or not accept the spiritist doctrine ... but they want to debate what they don't know ... this is a pseudo-skeptical attitude towards spiritist doctrine or spiritism!
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:06 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
to begin with ... spiritism or spiritist doctrine ..it is not within the purview of science or the scientific community ... you certainly did not know that!
You're wrong. It absolutely is within the purview of science. Do you know why?

I hope your translator works this one out:

Because the very core of the belief in spirits is that they can change events in the real world. A change in the real world is detectable. Imagine that you have a soul or spirit, and that it's making your body do things. Atoms would move about, and your brain would do things, and your body would do things. Those are things we can observe. That's what science is all about.

The only way out of this is to believe that spirits CANNOT make things happen in our universe. That places them outside of science's grasp. Of course it also means that they cannot interact with your brain, so you cannot detect them either, and you can't "have" a spirit.

The above is more basic than science: it's logic.

Quote:
an excerpt from Allan Kardec's book of spirits
Apparently mr Kardec is not familiar with the concept of logic, either. I would take his book with a high dose of skepticism, since he can't even get the basics right.

Quote:
I want you to read these books
Reading a series of books in the hopes that I will find an argument for your benefit doesn't seem like a very good use of my time. I've got a better idea: you make your own argument for it, and I'll read it, and respond. Otherwise I'll continue to believe that you have no evidence, no argument, and no conviction in your claims.

Quote:
debating without knowing anything about Spiritist doctrine is a pseudo-skeptical attitude
Stop throwing that word around as if it means anything to you other than "people who disagree with me". You're fooling no one, and bordering on uncivility.
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Last edited by Belz...; 16th August 2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:07 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
read these books then come back ok!
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/ here you will understand ... that the spiritist doctrine .. is not within the purview of science or scientific method ... ignoring these books is an attitude of pseudo-skeptics ... will you read or not?
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
No, iíve read lots of nonsense over the years and been through the whole process only to be told that my mind just isnít open. Your quotes are sufficient to know that this is no different. Bring us claims that demonstrate the existence of spirits (or perispirits) and they can be discussed, as Scorpion did. Answer Myriadís question in your own words, or point to specific answers to those questions, and there will be a place for discussion. But whatís very clear is that you are only here to preach, and weíre not buying what youíre selling.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
let's be a real skeptic ... and not a pseudo-skeptic
A real skeptic does not accept a claim without evidence. Your FIRST STEP is to provide that evidence. At least to establish a basis. Don't ask us to read volumes to help you in making your case.

Quote:
... it's not just those books on spiritist doctrine the literature is vast
So's the literature on demons and fairies and bigfoot and alien anal probes.

Quote:
.. in the debate is already caught red-handed in ignorance of spiritism or spiritist doctrine!
And the chief perpetrator is yourself.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:10 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Such as Mars.....
I grant you they were wrong about that, but its a big universe, and if it were a God created environment for the evolution of souls, and this process takes many incarnations, it figures that there must be many inhabited planets on which we can incarnate. Spiritual evolution over many lifetimes would not work if this were the only planet on which we could incarnate. For one thing natural disasters may end life on this planet, and the growth of our souls would be stalled if Earth was the only inhabited world.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Demonstrate the existence of a perispirit and weíll be happy to begin discussion about it. If not, itís existence or lack thereof is exactly like that of a Dimentor. Or a Horcrux.
I have already said ... spiritualism is not within the purview of science or scientific method ... its demand for empirical evidence ..in the case of spiritist doctrine has no reason to be! http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:13 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A real skeptic does not accept a claim without evidence. Your FIRST STEP is to provide that evidence. At least to establish a basis. Don't ask us to read volumes to help you in making your case.



So's the literature on demons and fairies and bigfoot and alien anal probes.



And the chief perpetrator is yourself.
I already said ... Spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science or scientific method!
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:14 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I have already said ... spiritualism is not within the purview of science or scientific method ... its demand for empirical evidence ..in the case of spiritist doctrine has no reason to be! http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
Then there is no reason to seriously consider the claims of spiritualism. (I thought it was spritism?) A skeptic examines evidence, in the absence of evidence there is no reason to take a claim seriously.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:15 PM   #99
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If something can not be demonstrated to exist, how could you differentiate between its existence and the lack thereof?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:17 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I already said ... Spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science or scientific method!
What evidence do you have for this claim?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:18 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A real skeptic does not accept a claim without evidence. Your FIRST STEP is to provide that evidence. At least to establish a basis. Don't ask us to read volumes to help you in making your case.



So's the literature on demons and fairies and bigfoot and alien anal probes.



And the chief perpetrator is yourself.
another pseudo-skeptical attitude ... mocking and mocking ... are you going to read the books or not? ... only about 30 books on Spiritist doctrine to begin with! You will ask again for empirical evidence ... and I will say it again to see if you understand ... Spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science or the scientific method ...
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
another pseudo-skeptical attitude ... mocking and mocking ... are you going to read the books or not? ... only about 30 books on Spiritist doctrine to begin with! You will ask again for empirical evidence ... and I will say it again to see if you understand ... Spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science or the scientific method ...
With my turban wrapped tightly I predict an unsatisfying experience for you.

Repeat after me...ohwah...taigoo..siam.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Then there is no reason to seriously consider the claims of spiritualism. (I thought it was spritism?) A skeptic examines evidence, in the absence of evidence there is no reason to take a claim seriously.
read the books you will ... will understand .. read the spirit book of Allan Kardec ...
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:25 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
read the books you will ... will understand .. read the spirit book of Allan Kardec ...
characteristic of a pseudo-skeptic ... mock what you don't know!
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:27 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
characteristic of a pseudo-skeptic ... mock what you don't know!
You have less information about what any poster on this site believes than we do about spiritual and reincarnation nonsense.

This isn't anyone's first encounter with the material or the "philosophy."
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:33 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're wrong. It absolutely is within the purview of science. Do you know why?

I hope your translator works this one out:

Because the very core of the belief in spirits is that they can change events in the real world. A change in the real world is detectable. Imagine that you have a soul or spirit, and that it's making your body do things. Atoms would move about, and your brain would do things, and your body would do things. Those are things we can observe. That's what science is all about.

The only way out of this is to believe that spirits CANNOT make things happen in our universe. That places them outside of science's grasp. Of course it also means that they cannot interact with your brain, so you cannot detect them either, and you can't "have" a spirit.

The above is more basic than science: it's logic.



Apparently mr Kardec is not familiar with the concept of logic, either. I would take his book with a high dose of skepticism, since he can't even get the basics right.



Reading a series of books in the hopes that I will find an argument for your benefit doesn't seem like a very good use of my time. I've got a better idea: you make your own argument for it, and I'll read it, and respond. Otherwise I'll continue to believe that you have no evidence, no argument, and no conviction in your claims.



Stop throwing that word around as if it means anything to you other than "people who disagree with me". You're fooling no one, and bordering on uncivility.
Wrong ... The vulgar sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will; Spiritist phenomena rest on the action of intelligences that have their own will and prove to us at any moment that they are not available to our whims. Observations, therefore, cannot be made in the same way; they require special conditions and another starting point; To want to subject them to our ordinary investigative processes is to establish analogies that do not exist. Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance. http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:33 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I already said ... Spiritist doctrine is not within the purview of science or scientific method!
And what's your response to my objection to that?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:35 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
another pseudo-skeptical attitude ... mocking and mocking
I'm not mocking. I'm telling you that you are engaging in the same behaviour you decry.

And you clearly don't know what a pseudo-skeptic is. I ask you again to refrain from using terms you don't understand.

Quote:
... are you going to read the books or not?
I already answred this as well. Did you read my response?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:36 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You have less information about what any poster on this site believes than we do about spiritual and reincarnation nonsense.

This isn't anyone's first encounter with the material or the "philosophy."
read ... then come back here ... to the debate .. not to keep saying what you don't know ... about the spiritual doctrine ..ok http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:36 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Wrong ... The vulgar sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will; Spiritist phenomena rest on the action of intelligences that have their own will and prove to us at any moment that they are not available to our whims. Observations, therefore, cannot be made in the same way
You clearly didn't read the post I made. You are not debating honestly.

Can spirits affect the real world or not? Can they move objects or speak to you or affect your actions? Yes or no?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:38 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And what's your response to my objection to that?
Wrong ... The vulgar sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will; Spiritist phenomena rest on the action of intelligences that have their own will and prove to us at any moment that they are not available to our whims. Observations, therefore, cannot be made in the same way; they require special conditions and another starting point; To want to subject them to our ordinary investigative processes is to establish analogies that do not exist. Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:39 PM   #112
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Please ... go read these books ...http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:40 PM   #113
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Here's an excerpt from Allan Kardek titled "8 Thinks to keep in Mind Concerning Spirits," from a site called nwspiritism (https://nwspiritism.com/spiritist-kn...-allan-kardec/). Except, I've edited it (using strikeout and boldface format, so you can follow the original and see what I've changed) to conform more to my own alternative view.

Most of the change is substituting the term "narrative" for "spirit." By "narrative" I don't only mean a fictional story, I mean any story, account, explanation, myth, ideology, model, formula, method, guiding rule, adage, meme, moral, proverb, or claim, whether purported to be true or fictional, whether actually true or false or self-contradictory, whether purported to be literal or metaphorical, expressed in any medium of communication.


Quote:
1. The spirits Narratives are not all equal nor in power, nor in containing knowledge or wisdom. As they are no more than human souls detached from their corporeal body mental constructs, they present a variety even greater than that of people on Earth, because they come from all worlds and, among the globes times, cultures, and agendas. Earth is neither the most basic nor the most advanced. Thus, there are very superior spirits narratives as there are very inferior ones; very good and bad; very wise and very ignorant; there are those of levity, malevolence, liars, astute, hypocrites, polished, sharp, jokers, etc.

2. We are incessantly surrounded by a cloud of spirits that occupy the space around us, our memories and minds despite the fact that we cannot see them, watching recalled to mind by our acts, reading forming our thoughts, some to do us good, others to do us harm, whether good or bad spirits narratives, accordingly.

3. From the physical and moral inferiority of our globe in the hierarchy of the worlds, From humans being error-prone and often out to seek advantage rather than truth, the inferior spirits narratives are more numerous here than the superior ones.

4. Among those spirits narratives that surround us there are those that attach to us; that act more particularly over our thoughts, giving us advice, and whose influence we follow unnoticeably. Good for us if we hear the voice of good spirits narratives only.

5. The inferior spirits narratives only bond to those that listen to them, that give them access and to whom they connect. If successful on dominating someone, they identify with their own spirit thoughts, fascinating then, obsessing them, subjugating them, and leading then as one does to a child.

6. Obsession can never happen but by inferior spirits narratives. The good spirits narratives don’t produce any kind of coercion, combat the influence of the bad spirits narratives and stay away when they are not listened to.

7. The degree of coercion and the nature of the effects it produces determine the difference between obsession, subjugation and fascination.

Obsession is the almost permanent action of a strange spirit narrative that leads the person to be solicited by an incessant need to act by this way or the other and to do this or that.

Subjugation is a moral bond that paralyzes the free will of the one that suffers it, pushing the person to the most reckless attitudes, frequently most contrary to their own interest.

Fascination is a kind of illusion produced by the direct action of a strange spirit narrative or by his cunning thoughts the thoughts it gives rise to. Such as illusion produces an alteration in the comprehension of moral things, leading to misjudgment and to mistake evil for good.

8. Human beings can always disengage from the oppression of the imperfect spirits narratives by their will power, by the choice between good and bad. If the coercion achieved the point of paralyzing the will and if the fascination is such that it obliterates reason, then the will of a third person may replace it. [pp 433-434]

Therefore, for those in the process or just curious about communicating with the spirit engaging with the world, one must be on guard and weary to whom you let into your house attention and mind.
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:40 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Wrong ... The vulgar sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will; Spiritist phenomena rest on the action of intelligences that have their own will and prove to us at any moment that they are not available to our whims. Observations, therefore, cannot be made in the same way; they require special conditions and another starting point; To want to subject them to our ordinary investigative processes is to establish analogies that do not exist. Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance. http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
Once again demonstrating that your religious leader has no idea about the process of science. Why should we take anything he says seriously?
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Old 16th August 2019, 01:44 PM   #115
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Kardec believed (based on what? not evidence) that we live eternally by repeated reincarnations: in other words, serial death. I suppose that's a little more tolerable to contemplate than

ETERNAL LIFE!

Surely the most terrifying fate anyone could imagine. Ricardo, try to reflect on the idea of existing FOREVER, inescapably. Do you really suppose that you could endure that? And what would it mean not to endure? YOU MUST STILL LIVE FOREVER. When the universe has expanded into an attenuated gas, not even the first instant of eternity will have passed -- and still, there your immortal self would be, facing into the literally everlasting nothingness.

Can you think of that?
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:03 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Once again demonstrating that your religious leader has no idea about the process of science. Why should we take anything he says seriously?
wrong again ... allan kardec ... was the coder of the spiritist doctrine or spiritualism ... will read the books on the spiritist doctrine ... be a real skeptic ...
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:04 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Wrong ... The vulgar sciences rest on the properties of matter which one can experiment and manipulate at will;
As opposed to making it up as one goes along when the subject is spirits and reincarnation.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:08 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Kardec believed (based on what? not evidence) that we live eternally by repeated reincarnations: in other words, serial death. I suppose that's a little more tolerable to contemplate than

ETERNAL LIFE!

Surely the most terrifying fate anyone could imagine. Ricardo, try to reflect on the idea of existing FOREVER, inescapably. Do you really suppose that you could endure that? And what would it mean not to endure? YOU MUST STILL LIVE FOREVER. When the universe has expanded into an attenuated gas, not even the first instant of eternity will have passed -- and still, there your immortal self would be, facing into the literally everlasting nothingness.

Can you think of that?
if i knew the english language ... i would talk a lot about the spiritualist doctrine ... but i use google translator ... it gets hard for me ok ... but with all due respect i recommend reading these books! http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:10 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Please ... go read these books ...http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
Did you come to this forum to discuss something, or just to sell books? If you have something to say, please say it.
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Old 16th August 2019, 02:11 PM   #120
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Kardec believed (based on what? not evidence) that we live eternally by repeated reincarnations: in other words, serial death. I suppose that's a little more tolerable to contemplate than

ETERNAL LIFE!

Surely the most terrifying fate anyone could imagine. Ricardo, try to reflect on the idea of existing FOREVER, inescapably. Do you really suppose that you could endure that? And what would it mean not to endure? YOU MUST STILL LIVE FOREVER. When the universe has expanded into an attenuated gas, not even the first instant of eternity will have passed -- and still, there your immortal self would be, facing into the literally everlasting nothingness.

Can you think of that?
The theory is that we evolve to an enlightened state over many lifetimes, and eventually we reach a state where we can gain nothing from further incarnation so we continue to evolve as immortal spirits. At the time of the end of our cycle of reincarnations we remember all our past lives in perfect detail. Also the spirit mind is not limited by the constraints of a physical brain and our consciousness expands.

I have experiences a slight expansion of consciousness in meditation, and after death that state of greater expanded mental power becomes the norm.

It is not our finite tiny human selves that live for eternity, it is as growing spiritually enlightened beings that continue to expand mentally.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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