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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 12th February 2020, 11:58 AM   #1281
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Apropos to nothing, but.... has anyone heard anything about the presentation Harry Rag/The Machine was preparing to publish last Nov that was going to prove Amanda's DNA was on the bra clasp? I think it was listed as part of several 'very exciting' initiatives TJMK had scheduled for 2020. I can't find that list or any mention of the presentation.

I was hoping to learn a whole new way to interpret egrams... I'm sure it was going to be very exciting and insightful.
There once was a guilter who was not full fledged nutter. He/she once begged Fast Pete to quit making predictions. There is Ph.D. thesis pending for someone, willing enough, in lunacy, to go through TJMK and catalog those predictions.

One early one (for me at least) that I fell for was Fast Pete announcing some near-future major "reveal". On a rare positive note, it ended up being a webpage so that Kercher family-travel to/from Italy could be crowd funded. AFAIK, the page tragically did not reach any goals - not that I had been aware of, in any event.

All the other predictions were about how IA posters would in the new year, be facing their own calunnia charges. Then there was the announcement the Gumbel/Sollecito's defamation charge had only been dropped by Mignini because it was alleged that G/S had admitted to the defamation and would shortly be issuing a public apology.

Crickets.

That's the way the haters rolled. Now? Harry Rag can prove, he alleges, that AK's DNA had been on the bra clasp. Which would be quite the feat given that the police's forensic geniuses destroyed the clasp through improper storage.

It's the way they rolled.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:06 PM   #1282
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Originally Posted by AnimalFriendly View Post
So have you, The Machine, Pete et al started any "Projects For Meredith"? If so, can you name a few? How about just one?
On TJMK "concerning Meredith" we have "her memory", "her family", "her Perugia", "her England", "her Europe". It appears that Meredith's memory is the sacred property of perverted individuals who continuously troll, stalk, undermine and slander 2 young people who have been finally acquitted by a court of law. The link "Her memory" is tainted with venomous attacks on K&S so it seems that Quennell can't even leave Meredith's memory pure without poisoning the well with hatred.

"Meredith's memory" comes pre-packaged with this perverted moral self-righteousness to the point where it has achieved official status. The bottom line is that no-one is going to access "Meredith's memory" without running the gauntlet of the half-truths, distortions and total lies that has poisoned her existence since there is precious little else online about her. Does Meredith's memory have to be synonymous with lies?

Sigh! I wonder what Meredith would have to say about it all. Would she really want all this hatred to continue in her name?

Hoots
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:07 PM   #1283
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Following the trail of this alleged Scott tweet story, it all leads back to Ergon (one of the wackiest PGP). From there we find it repeated on TJMK by one Krissy G., et al. No one, including Ergon, has ever supplied a picture of that email even though it's been claimed repeatedly that it was captured by an "eagle-eyed/sharp-eyed viewer" and that "The tweet has been supplied on this very forum before". I'm going to go out on a limb here and conclude that no such tweet from N. Scott ever existed.

Speaking of Krissy G, she must also post under the name Slow Jane. A 'tribute' to Meredith posted on TJMK appeared twice, once in 2019 under Krissy G. and once under Slow Jane in 2015.
The one posted under the name Krissy G in 2019 begins with the words 'My tribute first posted here in 2015".
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...._november_2007


http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index....mised_thursday
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Old 13th February 2020, 10:53 AM   #1284
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
There once was a guilter who was not full fledged nutter. He/she once begged Fast Pete to quit making predictions. There is Ph.D. thesis pending for someone, willing enough, in lunacy, to go through TJMK and catalog those predictions.

One early one (for me at least) that I fell for was Fast Pete announcing some near-future major "reveal". On a rare positive note, it ended up being a webpage so that Kercher family-travel to/from Italy could be crowd funded. AFAIK, the page tragically did not reach any goals - not that I had been aware of, in any event.

All the other predictions were about how IA posters would in the new year, be facing their own calunnia charges. Then there was the announcement the Gumbel/Sollecito's defamation charge had only been dropped by Mignini because it was alleged that G/S had admitted to the defamation and would shortly be issuing a public apology.

Crickets.

That's the way the haters rolled. Now? Harry Rag can prove, he alleges, that AK's DNA had been on the bra clasp. Which would be quite the feat given that the police's forensic geniuses destroyed the clasp through improper storage.

It's the way they rolled.
Perhaps the issue is the confusion of a "prediction" with "wishful thinking" or "fabricating a forecast based on an one's bias" or maybe even a "prophecy" or simply "making a (false) statement about one's allegedly planned action".

There's an interesting discussion of "prediction", in the sense of scientific prediction, at:

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/200...rediction.html

One relevant point from that blog is:

"A scientific prediction is based on a scientific theory. That means in particular it is reproducible (by everybody with the appropriate education), consistent, and the theory it is based on is not in conflict with available data already."

Let's try to apply some of these ideas to this case.

1. The decisions of an Italian court.

A decision of an Italian court is not predictable with any degree of confidence.

The reasons, based on observations in the Knox - Sollecito case:

1. The Italian judicial system does not follow the principle of precedent.
2. Observation shows that the Italian courts often violate Italian procedural law, and even principles of the Italian Constitution.
3. Individual Italian courts follow either a principle of accepting the prosecution argument as true but requiring a justification possibly even fabricated by the court, or a principle of attempting to judge a case by following Italian law and constitutional provisions.


2. The decisions of the European Court of Human Rights

A decision of the ECHR is highly predictable.

1. The ECHR strictly follows its precedents. When there is no ECHR precedent, it will examine and possibly adapt the rulings of other courts as a basis for judgment, consistent with the Convention.
2. The ECHR consistently forms its judgments in accordance with the principles of the Convention.
3. The ECHR consistently evaluates cases on the evidence rather than on any tendency to favor a state or an applicant.

Thus, one could objectively predict the outcome of the ECHR case Knox v. Italy based upon knowledge of the precedents and the evidence.

Last edited by Numbers; 13th February 2020 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:10 AM   #1285
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Originally Posted by AnimalFriendly View Post
So have you, The Machine, Pete et al started any "Projects For Meredith"? If so, can you name a few? How about just one?



There were no words about "poor condition" but rather ones like "Let us remember", "RIP" and "not forgotten". Were you upset by the photo itself?
Projects? There is the collection of court documents at source from the Italian courts - you have to go to a court and photocopy it yourself and they charge you for it (multiply that by several hundred pages, which represents the average Motivational Report in this case) to an estimated 10,000 documents all together- and then translation of the same by professionals because of the complex legalese, which can't be loosely translated, as legal terms have a precise meaning - these are all volunteers funding this out of their own pockets in the interests of justice. Se 'themurderofmeredithkercher.com' webpage for a comprehensive collection photos, videos, transcripts, original police documents, etc.

So that is one.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:18 AM   #1286
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
An emerging story on the Sacoolas case is that the reason she was spirited out of the UK so quickly is that she is a former CIA spy herself even more senior than her husband.

https://nypost.com/2020/02/09/anne-s...ly-ex-cia-spy/
So the message of the US to the UK request for extradition to face justice for killing a young lad on his bike by driving on the wrong side of the road, is '**** you'. (As a spy, spying on the Brits, you would have thought she'd have gathered intelligence that we drive on the left.)

She was an ex-spy not a spy at the time (she claims haha) so she does NOT have diplomatic immunity but her husband does.

Yet the USA expected Home Secretary, Priti Patel to jump to it and extradite businessman Lynch re Hewlett Packard, when he was already being tried in the UK.

Truth is, officials at the highest levels were informed that no way would the US extradite Knox so the pair had their convictions annulled Yet M-B make it clear there are big question marks over their innocence.

Common currency is that the pair did it, together with Guede. Even Knox and Sollecito admitted evidence pointed to multiple attackers.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:21 AM   #1287
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
First of all, I'm going to address the only relevant parts of your post. The rest, which I'm snipping out is all superfluous info/conjecture/opinions that does absolutely nothing to support your contention that Scott took Sollecito to the grave or that he posted a tweet about it.

RS posting a pic of Scott on his FB page proves nothing. And we only have your say so on that in the first place. Sorry, but your track record of making claims and failing to support them with evidence does not enhance your credibility. There is no doubt RS was in England at that time but that does not mean it was Scott who took him to the grave unless you want to claim that Scott is the only supporter RS had in England. It's not that Scott neither admitted nor denied he took RS; he just never answered the tweet/request that Ergon sent him.

It appears that Ergon is the initial source of this entire claim. The same Ergon (aka Man from Atlan, aka Naseer Ahmad) who believes himself a divine being and has a cure for autism.

How does a picture of Scott prove there was any such tweet from him? Scott has been accused of being various posters by the PGP. Since we've never seen this tweet, it's quite possible there was such a tweet made by some other poster that Ergon mistakenly believed to be an alias for Scott. According to you, the tweet was provided on ISF already so why can't you produce it again? Surely an avid PGP supporter like you has contacts on TJMK who could supply it to you? No?

ETA: the picture you provided with its caption from Scott in absolutely no way "mocks the paucity" or "poor condition" of Kercher's grave. This is the post from Krissy G which seems to be your source for this claim:
Scott jeered about the condition of the grave in IIP forum.

Question for the PIP: why the **** did Sollecito go all the way to England to visit Meredith Kercher's grave if he had nothing to do with the murder?
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:22 AM   #1288
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Truth is, officials at the highest levels were informed that no way would the US extradite Knox so the pair had their convictions annulled Yet M-B make it clear there are big question marks over their innocence.

Common currency is that the pair did it, together with Guede. Even Knox and Sollecito admitted evidence pointed to multiple attackers.
What is amazing is that in the section titled "Truth is", not a word of truth follows. Most certainly there is not one citation demonstrating these laughable claims.

This thread should be renamed, "Vixen's opinions".
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:30 AM   #1289
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Se 'themurderofmeredithkercher.com' webpage for a comprehensive collection photos, videos, transcripts, original police documents, etc.

So that is one.
You mean like the pic they have there of the knife showing the striation? Have they read Stefanoni's own report that the striation she claimed to have seen was unphotographable?

You mean like that kind of "evidence"? Also, like the bleach receipt they claim exists but have never posted?
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:36 AM   #1290
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
First of all, I'm going to address the only relevant parts of your post. The rest, which I'm snipping out is all superfluous info/conjecture/opinions that does absolutely nothing to support your contention that Scott took Sollecito to the grave or that he posted a tweet about it.

RS posting a pic of Scott on his FB page proves nothing. And we only have your say so on that in the first place. Sorry, but your track record of making claims and failing to support them with evidence does not enhance your credibility. There is no doubt RS was in England at that time but that does not mean it was Scott who took him to the grave unless you want to claim that Scott is the only supporter RS had in England. It's not that Scott neither admitted nor denied he took RS; he just never answered the tweet/request that Ergon sent him.

It appears that Ergon is the initial source of this entire claim. The same Ergon (aka Man from Atlan, aka Naseer Ahmad) who believes himself a divine being and has a cure for autism.

How does a picture of Scott prove there was any such tweet from him? Scott has been accused of being various posters by the PGP. Since we've never seen this tweet, it's quite possible there was such a tweet made by some other poster that Ergon mistakenly believed to be an alias for Scott. According to you, the tweet was provided on ISF already so why can't you produce it again? Surely an avid PGP supporter like you has contacts on TJMK who could supply it to you? No?

ETA: the picture you provided with its caption from Scott in absolutely no way "mocks the paucity" or "poor condition" of Kercher's grave. This is the post from Krissy G which seems to be your source for this claim:
Do you not understand that the photo Nigel Scott tweeted in November 2013 was obviously taken when the weather was spring-like and coincides with Sollecito's visit reported April 2013 and his putting up a pic of Nigel Scott on his FaceBook the same time, both of whom removed the pictures as scandalised journalists got hold of the story of the 'secret' grave tour.

Here it is again, as you are clearly no Anne Sacoolas CIA agent.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg photo of merdith's grave tweeted by Scott.jpg (110.4 KB, 6 views)
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:39 AM   #1291
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
You mean like the pic they have there of the knife showing the striation? Have they read Stefanoni's own report that the striation she claimed to have seen was unphotographable?

You mean like that kind of "evidence"? Also, like the bleach receipt they claim exists but have never posted?
Everything there is in good faith and authentic, unlike the Amanda Knox pages which translate word the MR's to make her look like Mother Theresa.
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:47 PM   #1292
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you not understand that the photo Nigel Scott tweeted in November 2013 was obviously taken when the weather was spring-like and coincides with Sollecito's visit reported April 2013 and his putting up a pic of Nigel Scott on his FaceBook the same time, both of whom removed the pictures as scandalised journalists got hold of the story of the 'secret' grave tour.

Here it is again, as you are clearly no Anne Sacoolas CIA agent.


Explain please to us all exactly how the "weather" is "so obviously" "springlike" in that photo.

Before you start though, let me advise you that 1) fresh cut flowers are available in abundance throughout the whole year in the UK; 2) grass grows throughout the whole year in the UK; and 3) there are plenty of hours of daylight on any given day throughout the whole year in the UK.

So, with all of that in mind....... away you go with your explanation!
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:51 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Everything there is in good faith and authentic, unlike the Amanda Knox pages which translate word the MR's to make her look like Mother Theresa.

The problem is rather encapsulated in these very words of yours though, Vixen. While on the whole the translations are unbiassed (although without doubt in certain places the wording/phrasing that is most pejorative towards Knox and Sollecito has been chosen), it's the risible "commentary" and "explanation" alongside the translations which is so ruthlessly biassed. And obviously you cannot see that, because.......(see above).

And just remind me, Vixen: does that site have "good faith and authentic" translations and interpretations of the Marasca SC report, the Boninsegna MR, and the ECHR adjudication. I can't quite remember whether that's the case or not............
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Old 13th February 2020, 12:57 PM   #1294
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Question for the PIP: why the **** did Sollecito go all the way to England to visit Meredith Kercher's grave if he had nothing to do with the murder?


You SERIOUSLY cannot understand this? The woman whose tragic murder precipitated his wrongful conviction and lost him several years of freedom unjustly?

So, Vixen: If, say, Kercher's English uni friends from Perugia, or Curatolo, or Mignini, or Marasca..... had visited Kercher's grave while they were in London, would you try to make the same argument (i.e. "why would they want to do that if they had nothing to do with the murder")?

Or, to put things another way: why, Vixen, would SomeAlibi or Quennell want to travel "all the way to Perugia" to visit the site of the murder "if they had nothing to do with the murder"?

Seriously..... more critical thinking and objectivity please.
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Old 13th February 2020, 01:43 PM   #1295
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Everything there is in good faith and authentic, unlike the Amanda Knox pages which translate word the MR's to make her look like Mother Theresa.
None of that is true. But it is noted that one of your criteria of truth is "in good faith". You fail to deal with the knife issue or the bleach receipt issue. I could name dozens of other examples of why that site is both misleading and non factual.

But it's well intentioned. By documenting false evidence, it means well so should be considered authoritative.

You also fail to cite one example of AK being equated with Mother Theresa. Your hyperbolic caricatures do not stand scrutiny.
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Old 13th February 2020, 02:43 PM   #1296
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams
You mean like the pic they have there of the knife showing the striation? Have they read Stefanoni's own report that the striation she claimed to have seen was unphotographable?

You mean like that kind of "evidence"? Also, like the bleach receipt they claim exists but have never posted?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Everything there is in good faith and authentic, unlike the Amanda Knox pages which translate word the MR's to make her look like Mother Theresa.
It is noted you fail to deal with the issue of the picture of the striation on the knife. Stefanoni, the original forensic-"expert" told the court that the striation could only be observed, not photographed. Strangely enough, only observed by her. Judge Massei in 2010 even justified this in accepting why no other expert could ever find the striation other than Stefanoni, by saying that she'd had a lamp under which she could rock the knife back and forth illuminating the striation for here. This technique failed for other experts, none of whom ever saw the striation.

But the judge accepted Stefanoni's story, so the striation became a "judicial fact", while also that the unphotographability of the striation also became a judicial fact:
Originally Posted by Massei in 2010
[225](Stefanoni) stated that the other knives that were analysed were kept separate. She
reaffirmed that on the blade of knife Exhibit 36 a striation was visible but ‚placing
the exhibit under a source of illumination < like the conventional sort that has a
Reprovit, which is the instrument we use for photography; it was possible to observe
it only by placing it under a strong spotlight and by changing the angle at which the
light hit the blade, it was only in this way that these striations became visible to the
naked eye < photos were attempted but it was too reflective < only white spots of
light came out‛
(page 246).
Please note - this is the PMF translation of the Massei report.

Yet, that webpage you cite once had a photo of that knife where they claimed the striation was clearly visible. This is the page where you say, "everything there is in good faith and authentic". Those guilter-nutters also said they'd got a photo of "the bleach receipt", which, indeed, turned out to be a receipt for pizza.

So, you simply gloss over this with a further non-sequitur... "unlike the Amanda Knox pages which translate word the MR's to make her look like Mother Theresa."

No citation for this claim. Indeed, not even some explanatory text as to what this has to do with that guilter-nutter page you cite.

There are dozens of other examples. I am guessing that lurkers here don't need to see them.
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Last edited by Bill Williams; 13th February 2020 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:02 PM   #1297
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Projects? There is the collection of court documents at source from the Italian courts - you have to go to a court and photocopy it yourself and they charge you for it (multiply that by several hundred pages, which represents the average Motivational Report in this case) to an estimated 10,000 documents all together- and then translation of the same by professionals because of the complex legalese, which can't be loosely translated, as legal terms have a precise meaning - these are all volunteers funding this out of their own pockets in the interests of justice. Se 'themurderofmeredithkercher.com' webpage for a comprehensive collection photos, videos, transcripts, original police documents, etc.

So that is one.
Ah, yes...and it's 'all for Meredith'.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:08 PM   #1298
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Scott jeered about the condition of the grave in IIP forum.
Wait. I thought he jeered about the grave on a tweet. Now it's in the IIP forum. I know this is an utter waste of time but....please produce said jeering on IIP.

Quote:
Question for the PIP: why the **** did Sollecito go all the way to England to visit Meredith Kercher's grave if he had nothing to do with the murder?
Well, he'd have to go to England as that's where she's buried. I suppose he could have gone to Austria but there's a flaw in that.

One Krissy G went to Meredith's grave. Aha! I think we may have solved the mystery of the other attacker!
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:29 PM   #1299
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ah, yes...and it's 'all for Meredith'.


On one level I can see at least some of it as a laudable (perhaps even noble) effort to illuminate this case - a case which was, after all, conducted in a foreign country, in a foreign language, under a different judicial system, under seemingly byzantine judicial rules, and subject to sketchy, often contradictory and often partisan English-language reporting - for the benefit of British and US audiences.

As I understand it, the catalyst for the whole project in the first place was outrage at the perception of over-emotive and subjective reporting of this case by the US media in particular. Again AIUI, the initial architects of these pro-guilt projects - Quennell and Ganong - felt that the US mass media were improperly trying to whip up the American public into believing that Knox (in particular) had been "railroaded" by the Italian courts and that she was in fact innocent. And PMF and TJKM were explicitly intended as "antidotes" to those perceived biases.

So far so.....OK-ish. The problem came pretty much as soon as the Massei MR arrived. PMF had more-or-less committed to translating the Massei MR (almost certainly because Ganong et al believed that the Massei MR would once-and-for-all demonstrate the strength of the case against Knox - in particular - and Sollecito). However, the Massei MR proved to be what is colloquially sometimes referred to as a "crock of ****". Anyone with a logical brain, a reasonable intellect, a fair understanding of law and some understanding of the scientific method could see from about a mile away that there were atrocious pieces of circular reasoning and plain irrational reasoning within the Massei MR, and that there appeared to be fundamental problems with pretty much every piece of physical evidence and witness testimony upon which the verdict relied.

But by then, battle lines had been drawn. As so often happens with these sorts of groups, attacks on their reasoning saw them become only further entrenched and "sure" of their position. They could rationalise attacks on the Massei verdict and MR as nothing more than an extension of the pro-Knox (in particular) "cheerleading" that they'd seen up to that point in any case (and which had caused them to set up their campaigns in the first place). And they could further rationalise things by conditioning themselves to believe that those who argued for Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence (primarily here on JREFF as-was - since anyone questioning their guilt (legal or factual) on the respective pro-guilt websites was swiftly and arbitrarily banned....) had some sort of nefarious motive for doing so: the favourite motives appear(ed) to be, in no particular order, either a) sexual infatuation with Knox, b) acting as a paid or unpaid agent of the notorious (but in fact non-existent) "Knox PR Supertanker", c) inherent anti-Italian sentiment, or d) some form of active desire to "deny justice" to the Kercher family.


And the rest, as they don't say, is sociology and psychiatry..................
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:41 PM   #1300
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She was an ex-spy not a spy at the time (she claims haha) so she does NOT have diplomatic immunity but her husband does.


In fact, Vixen, in-country spouses and dependent children of anyone whose position confers diplomatic immunity also have diplomatic immunity (I happen to know this from personal experience, but you could easily have researched it for yourself). Not that it has anything whatsoever to do with the Knox/Sollecito trial process.




Quote:
Truth is, officials at the highest levels were informed that no way would the US extradite Knox so the pair had their convictions annulled

Hmmmmmm. Well firstly, even in Italy there is separation between the judiciary and the executive/legislature (since Mussolini, anhow....). And for that and for many other reasons, the verdicts of the Marasca SC panel would have had nothing whatsoever to do with the perceived likelihood of the US agreeing to extradite Knox had her murder convictions been finalised. Though I'd still like to hear your...... reasoning..... about how/why any perception of an inability to extradite Knox would have affected the Marasca SC panel's assessment of the case.



Quote:
Yet M-B make it clear there are big question marks over their innocence.

No, it doesn't.



Quote:
Common currency is that the pair did it, together with Guede.

"Common currency" among certain Groupthink closed groups, maybe. But certainly not among anyone who a) is sufficiently well-informed about the case as to be able to make an informed judgement, and b) is capable of rational, objective, critical thinking.




Quote:
Even Knox and Sollecito admitted evidence pointed to multiple attackers.

No, they didn't.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:41 PM   #1301
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
You mean like the pic they have there of the knife showing the striation? Have they read Stefanoni's own report that the striation she claimed to have seen was unphotographable?

You mean like that kind of "evidence"? Also, like the bleach receipt they claim exists but have never posted?
Let's not forget the standing 'facts' that:

Amanda's blood was mixed with Meredith's.
Quintavalle saw Amanda at his store.
Amanda's rights were not violated during the interrogation.
Knox's footprints were in blood.
A woman's size 37 shoe print was found in Kercher's bedroom.
The DNA was neither contaminated or or faulty.
The postal police arrived before RS called the carabinieri.
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:42 PM   #1302
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wait. I thought he jeered about the grave on a tweet. Now it's in the IIP forum. I know this is an utter waste of time but....please produce said jeering on IIP.



Well, he'd have to go to England as that's where she's buried. I suppose he could have gone to Austria but there's a flaw in that.

One Krissy G went to Meredith's grave. Aha! I think we may have solved the mystery of the other attacker!


Ah but apparently only CERTAIN people who had nothing to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher are "allowed" to visit her grave. I don't make the rules.......
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Old 13th February 2020, 04:58 PM   #1303
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the message of the US to the UK request for extradition to face justice for killing a young lad on his bike by driving on the wrong side of the road, is '**** you'. (As a spy, spying on the Brits, you would have thought she'd have gathered intelligence that we drive on the left.)
No one has said she was spying on the Brits.

Quote:
As first reported by the Mail on Sunday, who cited officials on both sides of the Atlantic, Ms Sacoolas is believed to have been more senior in intelligence circles than her husband, but had reportedly not been conducting spy operations in the UK at the time of the incident.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
She was an ex-spy not a spy at the time (she claims haha) so she does NOT have diplomatic immunity but her husband does.
What part of 'former spy' in my post did you now understand? I believe LondonJohn has already informed you of who is covered by diplomatic immunity.


Quote:
Yet the USA expected Home Secretary, Priti Patel to jump to it and extradite businessman Lynch re Hewlett Packard, when he was already being tried in the UK.
What happened to "Walsh"? I'm sorry, but I didn't know that Lynch was covered by diplomatic diplomacy. Being tried in the UK has nothing to do with his being tried in the US.

Quote:
Truth is, officials at the highest levels were informed that no way would the US extradite Knox so the pair had their convictions annulled Yet M-B make it clear there are big question marks over their innocence.
Have you ever tried writing fiction? You're pretty good at it.

Quote:
Common currency is that the pair did it, together with Guede.
That's true..if the common currency being used Roman denarii.

Quote:
Even Knox and Sollecito admitted evidence pointed to multiple attackers.
You wouldn't care to provide evidence would you?

No? I didn't think so.
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Old 13th February 2020, 05:20 PM   #1304
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

So that is one.
I really wasn't talking about that twisted website when I asked about projects "for Meredith". That would have been obvious to most people, just not you. I was interested in projects sustaining Meredith Kercher's memory in a positive, and honorable, way. Of which you have not provided a single example.
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Old 13th February 2020, 07:25 PM   #1305
Numbers
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
....

Hmmmmmm. Well firstly, even in Italy there is separation between the judiciary and the executive/legislature (since Mussolini, anhow....). And for that and for many other reasons, the verdicts of the Marasca SC panel would have had nothing whatsoever to do with the perceived likelihood of the US agreeing to extradite Knox had her murder convictions been finalised. Though I'd still like to hear your...... reasoning..... about how/why any perception of an inability to extradite Knox would have affected the Marasca SC panel's assessment of the case.

....
There is no reason under Italian law, as far as I can find, that Knox's extradition could not have been requested after either after the Chieffi CSC Panel quashing of the Hellmann court of appeal verdict of acquittal or after the Nencini court of appeal verdict of conviction, even if the latter would be considered provisional (subject to appeal), had either the quashing or the verdict included an order for Knox's detention.

The reason extradition was not requested would appear to be the failure of both the Chieffi CSC Panel and the Nencini Court of Appeal to order detention. That order would be required to satisfy the conditions imposed by Italian law for the Minister of Justice to decide to request extradition.

Here is the Italian law on requesting extradition of a sought person not in Italy:

Quote:
Articolo 720 Codice di procedura penale
(D.P.R. 22 settembre 1988, n. 477)
[Aggiornato al 09/08/2019]

Domanda di estradizione

1. Il Ministro della giustizia e competente a domandare a uno Stato estero l'estradizione di un imputato o di un condannato nei cui confronti debba essere eseguito un provvedimento restrittivo della liberta personale. A tal fine il procuratore generale presso la corte di appello nel cui distretto si procede o e stata pronunciata la sentenza di condanna ne fa richiesta al Ministro della giustizia, trasmettendogli gli atti e i documenti necessari.

2. L'estradizione puo essere domandata di propria iniziativa dal ministro di grazia e giustizia.

3. Il Ministro della giustizia puo decidere di non presentare la domanda di estradizione o di differirne la presentazione, quando la richiesta pu˛ pregiudicare la sovranitÓ, la sicurezza o altri interessi essenziali dello Stato, dandone comunicazione all'autorita giudiziaria richiedente.

4. Il Ministro della giustizia e competente a decidere in ordine all'accettazione delle condizioni eventualmente poste dallo Stato estero per concedere l'estradizione, purche non contrastanti con i princýpi fondamentali dell'ordinamento giuridico italiano. L'autorita giudiziaria e vincolata al rispetto delle condizioni accettate.

5. Il Ministro della giustizia puo disporre, al fine di estradizione, le ricerche all'estero dell'imputato o del condannato e domandarne l'arresto provvisorio.
Translation by Google with help from me and Gialuz et al.:

Article 720 Code of Criminal Procedure
(Presidential Decree No. 477 of 22 September 1988)
[Updated on 09/08/2019]

Request for Extradition

1. The Minister of Justice shall have the authority to request the extradition of an accused or convicted person from a foreign State against whom a decision depriving his personal liberty shall be enforced. To this end, the Prosecutor General attached to the court of appeal of the district in which the the proceedings are ongoing or where the judgment of conviction has been delivered shall request extradition (of the sought person) from the Minister of Justice, forwarding to the Minister the necessary documents and documentary evidence.

2. Extradition may be requested upon the initiative of the Minister of Justice himself.

3. The Minister of Justice may decide not to request extradition or to postpone the request, when the request may prejudice the sovereignty, security or other essential interests of the State, informing the requesting judicial authority.

4. The Minister of Justice shall have the authority to decide on the acceptance of the conditions possibly imposed by the foreign State to grant extradition, provided that they do not conflict with the fundamental rights [principles] of the Italian legal system. The judicial authority shall be bound to respect the accepted conditions.

5. The Minister of Justice may order, for the purposes of extradition, searches abroad for the accused or convicted person and request his provisional arrest.

Source of Italian text: https://www.brocardi.it/codice-di-pr...ii/art720.html

ETA: The failure of both the Chieffi CSC Panel and of the Nencini court to order detention suggests that quashing the Hellmann judgment and convicting again were done for purposes other than the cause of justice. It suggests that protection of the police and Mignini from accountability may have been the primary true motivation.

Last edited by Numbers; 13th February 2020 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 13th February 2020, 09:28 PM   #1306
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
ETA: The failure of both the Chieffi CSC Panel and of the Nencini court to order detention suggests that quashing the Hellmann judgment and convicting again were done for purposes other than the cause of justice. It suggests that protection of the police and Mignini from accountability may have been the primary true motivation.
With due respect, this is overthinking a relatively far more straightforward process, even in Italy.

Before Cassazione finalizes the process (or a lower court verdict is not appealed) the grounds for pre-final verdict are threefold, one of three being enough to justify detention:
1) flight risk
2) risk of tampering with evidence
3) risk of reoffending
Once the Hellmann court provisionally acquitted, none of the criteria applied.

The Chieffi Cassazione reversal more than likely created a grey area, so I won't comment.

But by the time of the Nencini provisional conviction, both AK & RS has more than proven they would not "reoffend". There was no evidence, not really, to tamper with. (Stefanoni herself had already destroyed key pieces through incompetence.)

Nencini had said that Knox was legally overseas, and dealt with Sollecito as a "flight risk" by confiscating his passport.

There's no need to conspiratorialize it.
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Old 13th February 2020, 11:20 PM   #1307
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
With due respect, this is overthinking a relatively far more straightforward process, even in Italy.

Before Cassazione finalizes the process (or a lower court verdict is not appealed) the grounds for pre-final verdict are threefold, one of three being enough to justify detention:
1) flight risk
2) risk of tampering with evidence
3) risk of reoffending
Once the Hellmann court provisionally acquitted, none of the criteria applied.

The Chieffi Cassazione reversal more than likely created a grey area, so I won't comment.

But by the time of the Nencini provisional conviction, both AK & RS has more than proven they would not "reoffend". There was no evidence, not really, to tamper with. (Stefanoni herself had already destroyed key pieces through incompetence.)

Nencini had said that Knox was legally overseas, and dealt with Sollecito as a "flight risk" by confiscating his passport.

There's no need to conspiratorialize it.
However, after a conviction with the imposition of a long sentence (26 years), why would the judge not follow the request of the prosecutor and seek the detention of the convicted persons, if indeed the motivation for the conviction was sincere?

The primary or first reason* given on 30 November 2007 for Knox's original detention in a prison rather than in a less severe facility was that she was a foreign citizen with a passport who could flee Italy for the US. The possibility of her reoffending was also mentioned. At that point, all the alleged evidence had been secured and neither Knox or Sollecito had access to it.

So given that Knox had essentially legally escaped to the US by means of the Hellmann court acquittal, why would the Nencini court, having convicted her of extremely serious crimes with a total sentence of 26 years, not seek her return to Italy to serve the sentence? According to CPP Article 533, paragraph 1, ".... By means of the judgment, the judge shall apply the penalty and any security measures." Was Nencini not confident that the conviction would be upheld by the CSC on the appeals of Knox and Sollecito? Was Nencini aware that the judgment of conviction motivation report was nonsensical?

I think the peculiarities of the Nencini judgment together with the failure to seek detention of the convicted accused suggests strongly that the conviction was not sincerely motivated.

* "According to CPP article 274 letter b) it is moreover easy to observe very high risk of escape.

Amanda, although she is a student in Italy, cannot be described as deeply-rooted here , while are very solid the bounds with her homeland, where her parents live, moreover comprehensibly came to visit her daughter in jail.
In such framework, in response to the concrete risk of application of a serious condemn for a crime whose ferocity leaves amazed, there is no doubt that the escape overseas can in concrete terms constitute for the girl the first option, subsisting all the material and logistic supports of the case. ...."

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/motiva...eal-documents/

Request House Arrest Ruling: Ricciarelli Report

Last edited by Numbers; 13th February 2020 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 14th February 2020, 04:37 AM   #1308
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Truth is, officials at the highest levels were informed that no way would the US extradite Knox so the pair had their convictions annulled Yet M-B make it clear there are big question marks over their innocence.
If this is true, wouldn't it make more sense to find them guilty? They score political points at home, support their own judicial system and have no worries about repercussions. What are the benefits of annulling their convictions as opposed to confirming them?
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:11 AM   #1309
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
If this is true, wouldn't it make more sense to find them guilty? They score political points at home, support their own judicial system and have no worries about repercussions. What are the benefits of annulling their convictions as opposed to confirming them?
Hello...? Knox was in the USA and there was no way the State Department was going to extradite her, once Hellmann egregiously released the pair.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:15 AM   #1310
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Explain please to us all exactly how the "weather" is "so obviously" "springlike" in that photo.

Before you start though, let me advise you that 1) fresh cut flowers are available in abundance throughout the whole year in the UK; 2) grass grows throughout the whole year in the UK; and 3) there are plenty of hours of daylight on any given day throughout the whole year in the UK.

So, with all of that in mind....... away you go with your explanation!
Let's look at the alternative:

Nigel Scott, friend of Sollecito to the extent he was visited in his home by him, popped along to Mez' grave 2 Nov specifically to tweet how he remembers her on this day. <sfx Brummie accent: 'yes, mate!'>
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:20 AM   #1311
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
The problem is rather encapsulated in these very words of yours though, Vixen. While on the whole the translations are unbiassed (although without doubt in certain places the wording/phrasing that is most pejorative towards Knox and Sollecito has been chosen), it's the risible "commentary" and "explanation" alongside the translations which is so ruthlessly biassed. And obviously you cannot see that, because.......(see above).

And just remind me, Vixen: does that site have "good faith and authentic" translations and interpretations of the Marasca SC report, the Boninsegna MR, and the ECHR adjudication. I can't quite remember whether that's the case or not............
Yes, it has all those. Where there is a narrative, it is clearly stated as thus. This is because journalists and other researchers use the site (>100,000 visits) within weeks of being launched. Often people just want a summary either because they are in a hurry or because a 400-page densely-worded report in legalese is too much for them.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:24 AM   #1312
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You SERIOUSLY cannot understand this? The woman whose tragic murder precipitated his wrongful conviction and lost him several years of freedom unjustly?

So, Vixen: If, say, Kercher's English uni friends from Perugia, or Curatolo, or Mignini, or Marasca..... had visited Kercher's grave while they were in London, would you try to make the same argument (i.e. "why would they want to do that if they had nothing to do with the murder")?

Or, to put things another way: why, Vixen, would SomeAlibi or Quennell want to travel "all the way to Perugia" to visit the site of the murder "if they had nothing to do with the murder"?

Seriously..... more critical thinking and objectivity please.
Lots of people have travelled to Perugia to report on the case or out of personal interest whilst on holiday in Italy. Do try harder.


Mind you, Raff visiting the grave seems to suggest a scintilla of remorse. Together with spending hours in a church praying before the verdict, it suggests Sollecito has more of a conscience, albeit private, than sociopath Knox, flaunting herself in the public eye and cashing in like no tomorrow.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:25 AM   #1313
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Let's look at the alternative:

Nigel Scott, friend of Sollecito to the extent he was visited in his home by him, popped along to Mez' grave 2 Nov specifically to tweet how he remembers her on this day. <sfx Brummie accent: 'yes, mate!'>


No Vixen. I'm asking you to support your (ludicrous) assertion that one can "obviously" tell from that photo that it was taken on a spring day.

Try again.

(And you still don't understand the proper use of screenwriting notation, I see...)
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:28 AM   #1314
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Lots of people have travelled to Perugia to report on the case or out of personal interest whilst on holiday in Italy. Do try harder.


Mind you, Raff visiting the grave seems to suggest a scintilla of remorse. Together with spending hours in a church praying before the verdict, it suggests Sollecito has more of a conscience, albeit private, than sociopath Knox, flaunting herself in the public eye and cashing in like no tomorrow.


"Out of personal interest" you say? So in your head, that is OK, but someone visiting the grave site of a person in whose murder he had no participation, but whose murder precipitated a wrongful conviction which affected his life for several years..... is NOT OK?

(I mean, it's perfectly clear that both are OK in their own ways. But as ever, I'm interested in the.....logic..... underlying your interpretation)
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:29 AM   #1315
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, it has all those. Where there is a narrative, it is clearly stated as thus. This is because journalists and other researchers use the site (>100,000 visits) within weeks of being launched. Often people just want a summary either because they are in a hurry or because a 400-page densely-worded report in legalese is too much for them.


And the problem here is that apparently you cannot see how desperately biassed and misrepresentative that "narrative" is.

But...... QED.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:31 AM   #1316
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hello...? Knox was in the USA and there was no way the State Department was going to extradite her, once Hellmann egregiously released the pair.

I am suspecting that you haven't properly comprehended the point that Disbelief (and I, before that) made.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:35 AM   #1317
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ah but apparently only CERTAIN people who had nothing to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher are "allowed" to visit her grave. I don't make the rules.......
It is certainly a much-noted observation by criminologists that murderers often feel 'ownership' of their victim/s. A criminal will often return to the scene of their crime or keep a trophy of their victim/s.

Note Knox showing off how she had kept her prison clothes all this time with a broad grin and a pop-star pose. Normal people do not hang on to depressing memories so there is something creepy about Knox exulting in it. No doubt it is code for her having trophies of Mez we don't know about. Perhaps the key to her room. Remember the pic of her melodramatically digging underneath some rock in her mother's garden?
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:37 AM   #1318
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hello...? Knox was in the USA and there was no way the State Department was going to extradite her, once Hellmann egregiously released the pair.
Hello....? That's might point, which went way over your head. Try reading for comprehension, instead of trying to score some imaginary internet points.
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:42 AM   #1319
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No one has said she was spying on the Brits.





What part of 'former spy' in my post did you now understand? I believe LondonJohn has already informed you of who is covered by diplomatic immunity.




What happened to "Walsh"? I'm sorry, but I didn't know that Lynch was covered by diplomatic diplomacy. Being tried in the UK has nothing to do with his being tried in the US.



Have you ever tried writing fiction? You're pretty good at it.



That's true..if the common currency being used Roman denarii.



You wouldn't care to provide evidence would you?

No? I didn't think so.


Do look up their star witnesses, childkiller Alessi and dogkiller Aviello. Wheeled in to point to the 'other attackers' being other than themselves.

Oh, and LoJo is wrong. The families of diplomats in the UK do NOT have diplomatic immunity.
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Old 14th February 2020, 11:17 AM   #1320
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
There once was a guilter who was not full fledged nutter. He/she once begged Fast Pete to quit making predictions. There is Ph.D. thesis pending for someone, willing enough, in lunacy, to go through TJMK and catalog those predictions.

One early one (for me at least) that I fell for was Fast Pete announcing some near-future major "reveal". On a rare positive note, it ended up being a webpage so that Kercher family-travel to/from Italy could be crowd funded. AFAIK, the page tragically did not reach any goals - not that I had been aware of, in any event.

All the other predictions were about how IA posters would in the new year, be facing their own calunnia charges. Then there was the announcement the Gumbel/Sollecito's defamation charge had only been dropped by Mignini because it was alleged that G/S had admitted to the defamation and would shortly be issuing a public apology.

Crickets.

That's the way the haters rolled. Now? Harry Rag can prove, he alleges, that AK's DNA had been on the bra clasp. Which would be quite the feat given that the police's forensic geniuses destroyed the clasp through improper storage.

It's the way they rolled.
The predictions I remember were about how Knox was a psychopath and that the streets of Seattle would be running red with blood and how she would be hanging out in some crack joint turning tricks. Those of a scientific mind know that if you make a prediction and it fails then you should review your hypothesis, still waiting for the 'perhaps we were wrong and she's not a psychopath' admission.
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