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Old 17th November 2019, 06:08 AM   #81
dann
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And one of the survey's most striking findings is the poor esteem in which religious leaders are held.

Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!)
In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:59 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!)
In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.

Well child molesting and the covering up of same by church leaders would have a lot to do with it. The consistent negative attitude towards LGBT by a large (largest?) number of church leaders is another. When a church leader is exposed as a closet homosexual, it doesn't enhance his credibility much either.
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Old 17th November 2019, 06:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why are they in such poor esteem in general? (I can see why Court is!)
In Denmark, I doubt that religious leaders are in any kind of esteem because they tend to be very inconspicuous.
Royal Commissions and other inquiries have uncovered numerous cases of child sex abuse and cover ups by the clergy. Allegations have even ensnared George Pell who was one of the top ranking Vatican officials. He is now serving 6 years in prison. There is a thread about it (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=321082).

Revelations of child sex abuse have received so much publicity that in the eyes of many, to be a member of the clergy is to automatically be a child sex abuser.
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Old 18th November 2019, 05:23 AM   #84
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I remember only one Danish case in recent years: The vicar from Tømmerup has been sentenced to 10 years in jail after several cases of sexual abuse of children (TV2, Aug. 28, 2018)
And I don't think that anybody in the clergy tried to defend him. If that had been the case, I guess that people here would also have been more likely to blame the whole church.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th November 2019, 01:28 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

Revelations of child sex abuse have received so much publicity that in the eyes of many, to be a member of the clergy is to automatically be a child sex abuser.
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I remember only one Danish case in recent years: The vicar from Tømmerup has been sentenced to 10 years in jail after several cases of sexual abuse of children (TV2, Aug. 28, 2018)
And I don't think that anybody in the clergy tried to defend him. If that had been the case, I guess that people here would also have been more likely to blame the whole church.

Remarkable there have been so few cases in Denmark dann.

Mind you psion's remark is somewhat over the top. Unusual for someone who just sticks to the facts as stated in other threads.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:10 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well child molesting and the covering up of same by church leaders would have a lot to do with it. The consistent negative attitude towards LGBT by a large (largest?) number of church leaders is another. When a church leader is exposed as a closet homosexual, it doesn't enhance his credibility much either.
LGBT acceptance by churches is still in a minority, so "largest" would be the appropriate term.
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Old 29th November 2019, 12:07 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm actually with Roger on this one.

Homophobia is not just confined to religion. It is just that those homophobes who are also religious will use their religion to justify their homophobia.
I'm not sure I do. As with most things like this there is probably a mixture. I am sure some churches have members who are homophobic and others that are not.

However, ideas have consequences and to suggest religious dogma has no affect on it's flock is I think wishful thinking.

People don't blow themselves up because they are fed up with living and so the religion just happened to give them an excuse to do it. You generally don't hear Muslims complain about stem cell research because their common view is that souls don't exist until 120 days after conception, plus some other B#$#it rules.

Religion quite obviously instructs various religious groups on their ethics and morals and unfortunately much of it comes from a time when peoples idea of morality was pretty bad.

The late great Christopher Hitchens once recounted a story of how a priest posed a question to him that went something like:
"If you were walking down a dark street in a city you were unfamiliar and noticed large group of men walking towards you, would you not feel better if you knew they had just come from a religious service of some denomination?"

His reply was something like:
"No and I have been in that situation, in Bagdad, Beirut, Belfast, Bosnia, " etc etc.
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Old 29th November 2019, 04:09 AM   #88
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Here are Australians voting with their feet on religion. The % of people who get married by a minister of religion has gone down a lot.
1998 - 50.5% were performed by Ministers of religion
2008 - 35.0% were performed by Ministers of religion
2018 - 20.3% were performed by Ministers of religion
The alternative is Civil Celebrants.

Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3310.0

Looks like in 2028 only 5% would be performed by Ministers of religion!
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Old 29th November 2019, 01:26 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here are Australians voting with their feet on religion. The % of people who get married by a minister of religion has gone down a lot.
1998 - 50.5% were performed by Ministers of religion
2008 - 35.0% were performed by Ministers of religion
2018 - 20.3% were performed by Ministers of religion
The alternative is Civil Celebrants.

Ref: https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3310.0

Looks like in 2028 only 5% would be performed by Ministers of religion!

Given that Ministers of religion are not considered to be trustworthy may have some bearing on this I imagine.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-...-most/11725448


Celebrities come out at the very bottom according to the survey so I imagine a lay preacher football celebrity like Israel Folau would not score well.
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Old 29th November 2019, 05:26 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
I'm not sure I do. As with most things like this there is probably a mixture. I am sure some churches have members who are homophobic and others that are not.

However, ideas have consequences and to suggest religious dogma has no affect on it's flock is I think wishful thinking.
The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic.

People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.
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Old 29th November 2019, 05:50 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic.

People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.

Huh?

No, no bullying preached, just kill them.

Quote:
Leviticus 20:13 New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
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Old 29th November 2019, 05:59 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The context of my remark was whether comments by the likes of Israel Folau would make people homophobic.

People who have been indoctrinated since birth by a religious sect are a different category. Even then, the religious homophobics are more often than not using their religion to justify their actions even though their religion does not preach bullying homosexuals.
Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. He may or may not convince others to become more homophobic, there is quite clearly no way to tell on that one - I suspect people are arn't will probably just think of him as a bigot.

In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence.

I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion.

I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.
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Old 29th November 2019, 06:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Huh?

No, no bullying preached, just kill them.
Is that what Folau is preaching?
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Old 29th November 2019, 06:36 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point.
Folau acturally grew up as a Mormon. I don't know (or care) what their exact teachings are about homosexuality but it is clear his hard line opinions only came about well after he joined the Assemblies of God in 2011. In fact as recently as 2015, he was claiming that there was no room for homophobia (in the game of rugby).

Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence.
I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything).

Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion.

I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.
You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.
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Old 29th November 2019, 08:25 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Folau acturally grew up as a Mormon. I don't know (or care) what their exact teachings are about homosexuality but it is clear his hard line opinions only came about well after he joined the Assemblies of God in 2011. In fact as recently as 2015, he was claiming that there was no room for homophobia (in the game of rugby).


I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything).


You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.
People are being murdered for being Atheist and homosexuals thrown off buildings all driven by peoples religious dogma.
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Old 29th November 2019, 11:49 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
People are being murdered for being Atheist and homosexuals thrown off buildings all driven by peoples religious dogma.
How many? Ten?

You have abandoned your previous pretext that "there is probably a mixture". Now it's ALL driven by religion.
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Old 30th November 2019, 01:11 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is that what Folau is preaching?

Well somewhat worse than that as it seems. He wants to see homosexuals burning in Hell for eternityyyyyyyy.
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Old 30th November 2019, 01:24 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Israel Folau IS a product of his religion, thats the whole point. He may or may not convince others to become more homophobic, there is quite clearly no way to tell on that one - I suspect people are arn't will probably just think of him as a bigot.

In your last paragraph your first sentence contradicts your last sentence and you last point flys in the face of evidence much of the time. At the very least I dont think you could support your clain there with actual evidence.

I work with a guy, a very nice guy who happens to be catholic. I recently discovered he is anti homosexual. For him its a point of principle quite obviouly driven from his faith. He is not homophobic, he just think its wrong or "not natural". He hs tried to defend abstenance of the use of condoms in Africa and where morailty comes form. It is ALL informed by his religion.

I suggest, though I cannot prove it, there are many many many people jut like him.

Yes that not natural thing seems a common mindset among the faithful. Stems from a conviction about God not being the author of things screwed up I think. I have some in my extended family who see demons as the explanation of this. Homosexual = someone possessed by a demon.

Any talk of the many animals who exhibit homosexual behaviour is just waved of.
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:34 PM   #99
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@ psion

I thought it more appropriate to post this here than on the other Scomo thread which is derailed enough already.

To prob you further on the question of religious faith guiding ones beliefs, I invite your comment about the following statement by Margaret Court, when justifying her boycotting of Qantas:

Quote:
The 76-year-old wrote that she believed in the traditional definition of marriage as stated in the Bible and that the airline had left her "no option but to use other airlines [where] possible for my extensive travelling".
Did religion have anything at all to do with her action in your opinion?
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Old 1st December 2019, 05:48 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Did religion have anything at all to do with her action in your opinion?
Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious?

Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.
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Old 1st December 2019, 06:12 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious?

Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.

Is what I am saying so hard to grasp or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Margaret Court boycotted Qantas as a direct result of her religious convictions. An action as a result of religious belief.

Given that you accept this you must concede that others, including Scomo, may take actions as a result of their religious convictions.
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Old 1st December 2019, 06:17 PM   #102
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If a celebrity makes a homophobic statement in public, other people see it and start to think that making such statements is okay.

That's how Folau makes people more homophobic. His publicly homophobic statements give people permission to make their own.
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Old 1st December 2019, 06:39 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't see any contradiction there. AFAIK no main stream Christian church advocates that their members go out and beat up gays (although some of the smaller religious sects might preach anything).

You just summarized my position nicely. Christians might believe that homosexuality is "wrong" but that doesn't mean that they are going to bully gays or tell them that they are going to hell.
Happens all the time.


So would you say, in your opinion, if the Bible and Christianity stipulated that Homosexual people are all gods children should be allowed to marry within the Church, Lets say the second commandment was "Doeth no wrong to a man who loves and sleeps with another man, or a woman who loves and sleepeth with another woman as they are all gods children." and lets say it's been like that for 2000 years that the world in which Homosexuals live would be exactly the same?


To suggest that religion doesn't motivate some religious people to do and say bad things is a bit dumb. What was the quote, something like "good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do a bad thing, that takes religion.
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Old 1st December 2019, 09:58 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If a celebrity makes a homophobic statement in public, other people see it and start to think that making such statements is okay.

That's how Folau makes people more homophobic. His publicly homophobic statements give people permission to make their own.
And if somebody condemns homophobia it has no effect?
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:00 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Is what I am saying so hard to grasp or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Margaret Court boycotted Qantas as a direct result of her religious convictions. An action as a result of religious belief.

Given that you accept this you must concede that others, including Scomo, may take actions as a result of their religious convictions.
Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:01 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And if somebody condemns homophobia it has no effect?
Did I say that?
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Old 1st December 2019, 10:04 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?
No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 05:13 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did I say that?
No, you haven't considered non-religious remarks made by non-religious public figures at all.

It's as if you believe that religious figures have a special magical power of influence that the others don't.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 05:15 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't.
As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician.
- Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions.

All you have is pure CT.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 02:20 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why? Does Margaret Court control Scott Morrison?

Your dodging the clearly asked question and deliberate obfuscation is so obvious your credibility is zero.
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Old 2nd December 2019, 04:25 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, you haven't considered non-religious remarks made by non-religious public figures at all.

It's as if you believe that religious figures have a special magical power of influence that the others don't.
If you have a look at another thread, you will see that I have been talking about the power and influence that Greta Thunberg has had. The reason I haven't been doing so here is that it is not relevant.
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Old 3rd December 2019, 11:33 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you asking me if religion has anything to do with somebody being religious?



Whatever you think you have proven about Margaret Court is only about Margaret Court. It doesn't prove anything about anybody else.
If someone said they wanted to have sex with a nine year old and happened to be a Muslim would you describe that as merely "being religious"?
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Old 4th December 2019, 12:02 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician.
- Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions.

All you have is pure CT.
He is a Pentecostal and regular churchgoer. My understanding is that the religious beliefs of such people are meant to influence their actions in ALL areas of life. Are you suggesting that he's merely a nominal Pentecostal?
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:47 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If someone said they wanted to have sex with a nine year old and happened to be a Muslim would you describe that as merely "being religious"?
Somebody indoctrinated by their religion to believe that sex with 9 year olds is ok (even ordained) then states that they want to have sex with a 9 year old.

How is that even remotely similar to Scott Morrison? That's crazy!
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Old 4th December 2019, 04:50 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
He is a Pentecostal and regular churchgoer. My understanding is that the religious beliefs of such people are meant to influence their actions in ALL areas of life. Are you suggesting that he's merely a nominal Pentecostal?
My understanding is that most church goers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life.

See how that works? Somebody's "understanding" isn't evidence of anything.
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Old 4th December 2019, 02:43 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you have a look at another thread, you will see that I have been talking about the power and influence that Greta Thunberg has had. The reason I haven't been doing so here is that it is not relevant.

The irrelevancy is irrelevant according to psion. You will have to try another tack. The colour of Scomo's underwear might have some mileage in it.
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Old 4th December 2019, 05:19 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
My understanding is that most church goers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life.

See how that works? Somebody's "understanding" isn't evidence of anything.
I have expended great effort in sharing my personal lived experience as a member of a Pentecostal church. It's not my "understanding", it's my experience.

But you're right. Most churchgoers don't apply everything they have learned in a church to all areas of their life. Pentecostals do. They're unusual like that.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:01 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Somebody indoctrinated by their religion to believe that sex with 9 year olds is ok (even ordained) reads in their holy book that sex with 9 year olds is ok then states that they want to have sex with a 9 year old.

How is that even remotely similar to Scott Morrison Margaret Court? That's crazy!
FTFY

Your post that I was responding to was about Margaret Court, not Scott Morrison.

How is it similar? Margaret Court and others with similar opinion say that they were simply saying what was in their holy book.

Does any opinion or act become "practising religion" simply because it is in a holy book?
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:39 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
FTFY

Your post that I was responding to was about Margaret Court, not Scott Morrison.

How is it similar? Margaret Court and others with similar opinion say that they were simply saying what was in their holy book.

Does any opinion or act become "practising religion" simply because it is in a holy book?
And the post your were responding to was in response to the claim that Margaret Courts acts (or preaches) according to her beliefs therefore Scott Morrison does. Hence my confusion.

Even so, this "sex with 9 year olds" analogy is still ridiculous. You should know that the bible is full of contradictory passages. Atheists here have even quoted passages that say there is no god. Many people pick and choose which which passages they want to believe or leave that up to their pastor.

Any similarity between Margaret Court's beliefs and those of a child molester are coincidental.
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Old 4th December 2019, 06:41 PM   #120
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For the record, I don't know whether Margaret Court is a Pentecostal.
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